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Thread: Justified cheating - where is the line?

  1. #21
    Platinum Member Andrina's Avatar
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    Can I ask you what amount of sex you desire weekly? If you are a person who is only happy if it occurs once a day, that falls within a lower percentage of the population, and you're going to have date a whole lot of women and get past the honeymoon stage before finding out if a woman has the extreme sex drive you do, because it's going to be like finding a needle in a haystack.

    What are the complaints of all the women you've been with, about you? I'm sure you must have had discussions where they brought up issues of what they didn't want, or wanted.

    Do you give a woman affection and attention when you don't have sex on your agenda? Do you do your fair amount of chores and contribute an equal amount to household finances? How do you enjoy time with your partner when you're not having sex? Do you do special things for her, like picking up things she needs at the store? Do you ever buy her special little gifts/treats just because, not just for special occasions?

    Each couple is different, of course, on how often they have sex. A lot of people are too tired with work and/or kids, and having time constraints to do it more than once or twice a week. I, myself, would find it quite boring and overwhelming to do it daily and it would become so routine that it would take away the specialness of doing it less often than that.

    You haven't said what your ideal amount of sex is, so I'm just speculating. If nobody has been your match, sexually, time and time again, I'd strongly suggest going to a psychologist who is skilled in diagnosing sexual addiction to either rule that out or confirm that diagnosis. It could be that you focus too much in that area of your life, and aren't living a fuller life with a bigger variety of interests. If you only want sex once a week and your partners haven't even wanted that, you will have to look at your treatment of the women by what they've told you, so you can improve as a partner.

    People who you love, and with whom you enjoy the company of but don't have sex with, are friends. If you want a friend to fill the role as your lifetime partner, it's like putting in a DVD with no data on it and expecting to watch a movie. It's frustrating and a waste of time. But before giving up on her, have a discussion with her on what she wants improved in the relationship to see your part in it, and go see that psychologist. Maybe with changes on your end, you'll wind up with the life you want. Keep us updated.

  2. #22
    Platinum Member reinventmyself's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 4dvz
    I`m not a sex addict, I just consider sex to be one of the greatest joys in life. If I`m a sex addict, then everyone who enjoys something so much that they want to do it often is an addict. Sex is healthy, it`s not a drug or a slot machine.
    In your previous thread you stated you were a sex addict. A healthy one at that.

    I will echo a previous post and if you are the common denominator here, is there any reason why you aren't exploring why you need sex so often? I get for you this is your normal, but if you are bumping up again and again with partners that can't keep up with you, instead of trying to convince, or barter for sex maybe you should consider talking to a professional.

    No doubt the idea of you dumbing down your sex drive seems ludicrous. I get it. You like it and it works for you. That makes sense. But ultimately the end result is you have a few failed relationships to show for it.

    Honestly, how often are we talking about here?

    What's your ultimate goal, I guess the question is here? Do you want a healthy relationship? What's more important, frequent sex or compromise? You both might need to some help to understand why.

  3. #23
    Platinum Member Keyman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 4dvz
    I`m just starting to question myself and my believes. If I stay with her like this and yes I`m gonna stay with her I love her way too much to go anywhere, I will feel always neglected, disrespected and not wanted. It will consume me inside, and it has already started to do so because I have chosen being with her like this, instead of considering my own needs.

    I have offered her complete financial freedom if she starts taking care of my needs, I have told her that she can even stop doing the chores at home besides that, quit her job, whatever she wants, if she only would not let me suffer like this.
    Everyone else has told you their thoughts on cheating, so I won't add to that.

    Relationships go through stages, with the first part being both sides just not wanting to take their hands off the other. As the largest need of men in the relationship is sex, over time this will wane for women. It is a well know fact that this happens in the vast majority of cases. In general, women like the new and shiny, and when that thing shifts into normal and standard, they lose the interest and look for the new 'new and shiny' to invest time in. (I'm not talking about a new sexual partner, but a different aspect of the relationship.)

    Men, in general, on the other had want to get something to that normal and standard, and sex/desire is one of those things. He wants to be desired always as if it were the first few months. And, when he feels her interest starting to wane, he tries to barter for the return of that desire: I'll give you financial freedom, I'll do all your chores, just play with it like you want to, not like you have to. By doing this, you are not building her desire, you are building an obligation: 'sigh, he wants it again, if I have to.'

    So, find a way to rebuild the desire instead of making it an obligation, and you will find she might be more interested.

  4. #24
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    Thank you all for your answers. What I love about this forum is the amount of answers the threads get, and how good they are in quality. I really really appreciate each and everyone who took time to answer me, I have readed everything through twice. However due to the amount of answers I`m unable to answer everyone directly, but I try answering the points that sticked in my mind the most because I saw certain things arising more than others.

    - Morals: Exactly why I made this thread, to get a reflection in this. I didn`t honestly know what kind of feedback I would receive, since I have actually talked about this kind of stuff with couple of other people I know who are more than certain that cheating is morally justified because they have shared a similar situation of their woman not caring enough about their needs, and in those discussions I have been the one claiming them being wrong about it. I find it a very hard question, because according to my morals I`m justified to enjoy a happy life full of sex, and my partner is trying to make that life impossible for me. Cheating in the other hand would cause pain, unbearable one that is. I have experienced it myself, and as I mentioned earlier I have never cheated anyone I have been with because of that experience. I was destroyed from inside, and in a way I don`t believe I ever recovered to a person I was before it. It scarred me for life. So when I`m thinking about stuff like this, I have travelled to a brink of other type of destruction. This eats away everything from me really, and she just won`t listen to me nor even have a good discussion with me. She just turns away when I cry for help. How is that morally more justified than cheating? I know nothing here, that I admit.

    - Respecting her: I don`t see women as vessels for sex (hard for me to believe I made that impression to someone here), and I honestly have done my best to contribute positively into her life. I have a clear consciousness on this one. I have made no mistakes regarding this and I`m 100% sure she thinks the same way, I have always treated her well.

    - Obligation to have sex: I understand that my point of view on these things might seem a bit cold and many of you saw me trading things for sex which of course is also a bit desperate, but truth to be told it`s a bit naive to assume there wouldn`t be expectations both ways in any relationship, and letting those expectations down will cause disappointment in your partner. Stating those most important expectations before making a big decision of sharing your life with another person is something I believe every intelligent human being should hold crucial, to be transparent in what you want. I have been extremely transparent, accurate and honest before she moved in with me because I wanted her to consider. Someone wrote that you can`t possibly owe your partner to have sex. I owe her my good behaviour for example. By nature I`m bit of a freak in a lot of things, but for her I always behave well in places we go. I owe her this. I also owe her my share of paying our bills. I owe her a consideration of her feelings every day, even if it would cause me a loss. I`m not gonna go out partying in the middle of week if she needs to wake up early, I owe it to her because I know what kind of life she wanted before I moved in with her. How could you say that nobody owes anything to his/hers partner? Of course you do, you owe a lot of stuff which would cause a disappointment if neglected. I would not talk about obligations unless this was such an issue in my relationship, please understand this. I hate to call sex an obligation, honestly. I hate being miserable more though.

    - My needs in sex: Every 2nd day is the minimum I`m ok with, I can see serious signs of unhappiness in myself after that. If I got to decide it would be everyday, sometimes more than once, but I understand that it`s an unrealistic expectation. I also want to experiment new things, be kinky, do all kinds of stuff that I`m not going to describe here. What I have also been sad about is that she only wants regular sex without anything creative, even though she completely gave me an impression of a nasty mind when we had our first year.

    - My previous threads: If I have ever called myself an sex addict, it has been due to an effort to decrease my sexual needs. I have given it a serious effort at some point, maybe that thread is from those times I`m not sure. I have once or twice tried to brainwash myself into believing there is something wrong with me, to make things work out better with my girl. As I stated this has been an issue in my relationships for about an decade. There has even been a time I have completely tried to get rid of my need of having sex at all, because of the way the women I have been with made me feel.

    - My understanding of love: Someone had to question this here. Again hard for me to believe why, but anyways I would sacrifice my life any time without hesitation to save hers. I would give up literally everything I have to help her if needed. I`m ready to spend every day of my life with her. I do everything she asks me to do, because I want to make her life better. Her smile gives me joy like no other. Her friendship gives me more than sex ever could, which is the reason why I`m still here not willing to leave. Sex is better with her than it would ever be with anyone on earth because I love her, not anyone else. I would never love anyone if I didn`t believe for 100% I`m together forever with that person, with no option to break up ever. If this is not understanding of what love is, then im fine with the fact I don`t understand what it is.

    - Bartering with sex in your relationship: Why not? People have been doing it since the very beginning of us anyways. Besides, bartering with sex with your own partner should not be taken the same way as bartering it with someone else, it`s more lighter form of whatever you want to call it. It should be obvious that your partner perceives you as attractive, right? Why would she/he be with you otherwise? So why it`s so bad to ask her to give you something you want when it should not be anything she can`t do with pleasure, and in return to give her something that rewards her. It sounds cold, but our very own civilization is based on trading things. Anyways I would not need to think about this kind of stuff if she wanted to keep me happy just by her good nature, but it`s not the way it goes so I`m desperate. What I admit is that this is desperate thinking from my behalf.

    - Escorts: It`s no different from cheating and not really a topic here in my opinion..

    - Open relationship: I don`t like the idea, and actually because we talk about everything this has crossed our "table" and it was an immediate and big no from her side.

    - Results so far: I`m not even counting anymore, only 1 person from numerous answers seemed to think it`s ok.

    In general it seems really depressing to think all women are bound to lose interest in a loyal guy who wants sex a lot. It makes me remember why I decided to be single for good before meeting her, who made me believe I should still believe in love.
    Last edited by 4dvz; 02-07-2020 at 09:04 AM.

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  6. #25
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    I don't really like your "owe" mindset about a relationship. If you desire someone and desire to be committed to that person you make certain promises -whether marriage vows or otherwise. You make them because you desire to be in a committed relationship and the couple often figures out what promises make sense.
    I don't believe you adhere to your definition of love if you also believe that you could justify cheating on her in the way you would justify it. Sometimes love means walking away - because you can love someone who doesn't love you back romantically let's say -so you walk away and offer friendship from a distance or other kinds of non-romantic support because you love the person. Sometimes love isn't enough. I've loved certain people who ended up treating me badly. So I had to choose myself, my well-being over being around those people even though I loved them. Doing everything someone asks you to do is fine but it's not love if you're doing it with resentment, feeling like a martyr -then that's you being dishonest with yourself. Love is having the courage to tell the person "no I don't want to take out the garbage tonight because I've done it for the last week and just prepared myself a snack and my book for some downtime before bed." Love is trusting that the other person wants you to be assertive and show that you care about yourself too rather than building up resentment or acting like a martyr.

    Desiring someone doesn't mean you want to have sex with them as often as they want to have sex with you.

    She's not losing interest in you. She just wants to have intercourse less often than you. Big difference. You can go on and on with your "oh I need to believe in Love again" and pining after being single and the whole pity party thing but the truth is you are creating your own issues here. Because if you love yourself enough and love her you would have the mindset of two options (1) I can compromise on the frequency thing and with self-talk and self-work I can get to a place where what is good about this relationship will outweigh the downsides or (2) I've realized we are incompatible sexually. This is a dealbreaker for me. I love her very much and love isn't enough. So I will end things so we can each find compatible partners.

    The fact that you're considering cheating on her as "justified" belies basically everything you wrote -we all have "thoughts" but were you to act on it by cheating then no you are not believing in love, you are not loving her, you are not even loving yourself based on all the dishonest pretzel-twisting rationalizations.

    Two equally reasonable options -which will you choose?

  7. #26
    Forum Supporter ~Seraphim ~'s Avatar
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    There women with kink and high sex drives. Pick one of them. You’ll be much happier that way.

  8. #27
    Platinum Member SherrySher's Avatar
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    How is that morally more justified than cheating? I know nothing here, that I admit.
    No one said that she is justifiable on how she is behaving, but two wrongs don't make a right. It's not okay to start telling yourself she behaves badly so you can too.
    If it's gotten to be that bad that you're considering cheating, the best thing to do is end the relationship. It's better to hurt someone honestly than dishonestly.

    I don't really like your "owe" mindset about a relationship.
    Same.
    Your ideas of how two partners "owe" this and "owe" that, sounds more rigid and more of a business rather than love. A relationship is more about hope and promise, and not about force or control.
    Perhaps you're just using the wrong terms.

    As for sex every second day, I would say that it's a bit higher than typical. I can't give you straight out stats, but on my best guess, I would say average couples have sex a few times a week, some as little as once or twice. And that's okay. As long as the two people are happy with that, nothing wrong with it at all.

    The problem comes in when one partner wants more sex and the other doesn't. What you are also doing is attaching blame and resentment and assuming lack of feelings from her, etc for her not having as high of a libido as you.
    None of that might even be true. She simply might not want sex as often as you.

    Your options are fairly obvious, leave her or masturbate on days she is not wanting to have sex. The third option is of course to sit down with her, be an honest partner and tell her this is a problem and consider an open relationship.

    That's it. Those are literally your only options as a decent, respectable man. Cheating should never cross one's mind. It is most definitely the worst thing you can do to your partner.

  9. #28
    Platinum Member boltnrun's Avatar
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    I am a woman and I do not lose interest in sex with my partner and I do not look for something new and shiny after a period of time. And I like sex every day. With my partner.

    Did she tell you she wanted sex with you as often as you want it and that she was as kinky as you? And then she went back on it? Do you feel misled or deceived if she did?

  10. #29
    Platinum Member Andrina's Avatar
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    Why aren't you willing to go to a psychologist, to see if you're the problem instead of the women in your life? Here's an excerpt from an article on sex addiction:

    THE BODY OF A SEX ADDICT can become his whole world. The urgent messages he receives from his brain—I’m depressed, I’m lonely, I’m frightened, I’m angry—drown out everything else around him. He can’t feel happiness, except as a physical sensation.

    Arousal and orgasm, as he knows them, are not lived experience but rather a retreat from it. They are a simulation of all that may be absent from his life: joy, intimacy, a feeling of accomplishment. They are a kind of biochemical brute-force attempt to blot out an overwhelmingly bad feeling with an overwhelmingly good one. In the space between arousal and orgasm, he finds a fleeting calm. He strives to prolong it, to escape time, escape his own mind. He lurches between wretchedness and euphoria, looping back on himself endlessly. He wants to be outside himself; instead he becomes his own prison.

    The pursuit of that elusive high can drive sex addicts to escalate into increasingly risky behavior: from exhibitionism and habitual anonymous sex to, in certain cases, a fascination—even in people who have always preferred adults—with child pornography.

    Eli Coleman, who has studied this phenomenon, says that some of these men are working out conflicts about their sexuality. But some are not. Instead, he says, they may have other, intricately tangled motives: to express self-hatred through behavior they may regard as debasing, to subjugate a partner they regard as more physically powerful than a woman, to feel desired by and intimate with a father who was emotionally distant.

  11. #30
    Platinum Member bluecastle's Avatar
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    I'm also perplexed by this "owe" mindset, more so in how you've outlined it. There really is a whole different way to approach this stuff, the "business," one could say, of fellow human beings, connecting with them, and sharing space with them, literally and figuratively. When our approach to anything repeatedly proves to not work, as yours seems to have proved faulty, it's always a good moment to open up to the idea that maybe there is a different approach that will work better.

    Like you, I'm in a relationship, still on the newer side at a year and change, but we now share a house, are building a life together with shared hopes and intentions. Still, I don't feel either of us owe the other anything and suspect I'll say the same thing a decade from now, if we're still together. Not rent, not cleanliness, not fidelity, nothing. It is a compulsory activity, us being together, not obligatory, like every relationship I've been in since middle school. The fuel is faith and respect, not duty.

    Of course, were one of us to go off the rails—no longer paying the bills, no longer being faithful—it would be the end of the things. But things could end with much less drama. My girlfriend is free to leave me any time she wants, for any reason she deems worthy, as am I. She is a person more than she is my partner. That we choose each other—and would, I have faith, choose to work through things before reacting in a destructive way—without being owed anything is what makes it special, powerful, and, yes, pretty spicy. There is space to continue exploring the unknown together and the unknown that is the other person. There is no debt.

    Because here's something worth reflecting on: it sucks to feel you owe anyone anything. Think of a credit card bill. It is a part of adulthood that sucks, especially if we spend more than we make. Mounting debt sucks. Adds pressure to the day to day, shrinks your world. Yeah, there are certain parts of life where we take on debt, but these are logistical matters: credit cards, as mentioned, or mortgages. Even there contentment is predicated on making decisions where the debt—what we owe—is manageable and realistic, not suffocating: debt we can service without it taking up too much of our mental and emotional energy.

    Applying this debt-service mindset to intimacy, physical or emotional, is just a surefire way to kill the buzz, in my opinion, because you stack the deck against you. I can't help but think that may be part of your conundrum here, given that this is an issue you have encountered time and again in matters of intimate relationships and with intimacy in particular. You're trying, best I can see, to hedge hard against uncertainty—to eliminate the possibility of something not working, of "failure." But in the process you are reducing your humanity, and hers. You are partner first, person second, and so is she, in your eyes.

    But why is sex generally pretty hot and spicy early on? Because there is less pressure, no rules, just faith, feeling, attraction, connection, two people. You have to continue to cultivate that inside a relationship, alongside someone, rather than kill all that out of fear of it not working out. And you cultivate it not just in the bedroom, but primarily outside of it, through remaining curious and open to...well, to whatever comes and to the fact, as thrilling as it frightening, that you can never really fully know or possess another person, even inside a lifelong commitment.

    A heavy question I can't help but ask: Do you feel, in your heart of hearts, that you are a good person? I think you are, mind you, because I believe approximately 99.9 percent of humans are good people. But I ask because I get the sense that you are trying to "atone" for something, in the bigger picture of being you in the world, in your skin. That you are trying to prove goodness, but almost with an edge of vengeance, and that you've pinned a lot of this identity—of being a good man, a good person—on who you are inside a relationship and whether you can make a relationship last and work, even if it is not satisfying you.

    More pressure, in short. Pressure on you, pressure on your partner to validate your goodness, a paradigm in which your sexual appetite becomes something of a "not good" quality, a trigger of despair and self-loathing, this martyr identity that seems to be a source of jagged comfort at the expense of more authentic comfort.

    Your sexual needs, as outlined? Honestly, they strike me as normal enough, certainly familiar in my own romantic history. Maybe not achievable with this woman, but that's not a crime or a sin or a verdict on your goodness, just a potential mismatch. But since it's something you've run into again and again? Well, I honestly think it's less connected to the left field nature of your libido than to your brain, a left field manner of processing things. Maybe because you're afraid of being alone, or afraid of being a bad man, or afraid of the unknown, but it seems to me that in romantic partnership you are putting a premium on control and certainty at the expense of curiosity, of fostering a mutually curious environment, of celebrating all that can still be explored—not just sexually, but more generally.

    You clearly don't want to cheat, so don't cheat. But that means being open to the idea that this won't work out, that this woman isn't your person. Ironically, per the above, I think letting that idea into things, rather than creating a system to eradicate it through behavioral bartering, might be one of the keys to enjoying a more enriching form of intimacy, in the bedroom and beyond its walls.

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