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Thread: Are we still just friends? Or are we less?

  1. #21
    Platinum Member bluecastle's Avatar
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    Not sure how old you are, but do note that pixies and pixie dust always flutter off, as that which is fluttery is interesting because it can never quite be held. That's poetry for: be smart, and don't mistake sugar cubes for veggies. Teeth do rot, with age, if not taken care of.

    Hitch too much of your self-conception on this sort of wagon, in other words, and you'll become vague to yourself. As I think has started to happen. Just as a walk around a single block in Paris is more profound than any poem about Paris, real connection, particularly the romantic variety, is much more profound than the misty version that is never quite touchable.

    If she was not easy on the eye, this would all be simple: she would be your friend. Perhaps you have it in you to actually just be her friend? Or perhaps you have it you to admit that you don't quite believe a woman like her, at least where she is today, possesses the stuff that makes for real friendships—or, really, much of anything real?

    I have dated a number of women who I describe in the following terms: great characters, if they existed in a novel, but not so great characters to invest much heart or soul into. Is she such a character? Only you know.

    Can we get some ages here, by the way? I'll shift and sharpen my approach, a bit.

  2. #22
    Platinum Member Rose Mosse's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what you see in her. By your account of things, she's a parasite and a dingaling/an airhead. She may very well not be at all and it's your perspective that's colouring the portrayal of her. I don't see anything manipulative about her to be honest... just a lot of air. I'm sure she has other redeeming qualities.

    If you do find your friendship valuable and want to spend more time with her, I don't see why not. I just can't for the life of me imagine how this person would contribute to my life if I were in your position.

  3. #23
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    Originally Posted by bluecastle
    Not sure how old you are, but do note that pixies and pixie dust always flutter off, as that which is fluttery is interesting because it can never quite be held. That's poetry for: be smart, and don't mistake sugar cubes for veggies. Teeth do rot, with age, if not taken care of.

    Hitch too much of your self-conception on this sort of wagon, in other words, and you'll become vague to yourself. As I think has started to happen. Just as a walk around a single block in Paris is more profound than any poem about Paris, real connection, particularly the romantic variety, is much more profound than the misty version that is never quite touchable.

    If she was not easy on the eye, this would all be simple: she would be your friend. Perhaps you have it in you to actually just be her friend? Or perhaps you have it you to admit that you don't quite believe a woman like her, at least where she is today, possesses the stuff that makes for real friendships—or, really, much of anything real?

    I have dated a number of women who I describe in the following terms: great characters, if they existed in a novel, but not so great characters to invest much heart or soul into. Is she such a character? Only you know.

    Can we get some ages here, by the way? I'll shift and sharpen my approach, a bit.
    Ages: Her 25 and Me 34.

    More about me: I am quite a simple straightforward person, slightly shy on the romantic axis (big draw for her). Used to be quite good-looking, and several women still find me attractive, though I wouldn't call myself a handsome man anymore. I do have a fabulous baritone and have seen situations where women swoon when I speak. I remember casually speaking with a woman about politics on the NJ Transit from NYC to Morristown once - and she started to have an orgasm, which she did "complete" on the train. I have had a few other situations where women would petulantly flirt with me, then realise that I actually have solid intellect and notable academic/research distinction, and would then express their remorse at having started with me the wrong way, and then try to do a serious reset.

    More about her- I think one of the commentators might be onto something by calling this a free life coaching situation. However, I have been there too. What is different here, is that she finds my detachment to be quite attractive. She is not used to having men handle her in a detached manner.

    And I have refused her help quite a few times, when it's obvious that it is not a crisis that she is tackling.

    She has also noted that she completely trusts my judgement even though my suggestions usually do not appeal to her instantaneously - her way to deal with things is to hustle and hope for the best. My way is to follow the book. But, she says, and this is the part that causes me to like her a bit - is that she listens to my differing point of view / criticism and, often ends up doing what I have suggested even though her emotional brain is telling her to do something else.

    Intriguingly, I have also seen her work with other people (in paid capacity), where she is their coach, their agony aunt, or, is genuinely helping a girl that she would like to favor - and in those moments, she is sincere, forthcoming, helpful and genuine in a good way - and she radiates happiness when she does this. That tempts me to tell her to consider teaching as a profession , which is something she finds appealing (among other professional choices).

    And, her ability to have a somewhat serious conversation about philosophy, literature, ballet and opera - is quite attractive to me, to be honest. I would like to say that these talents would have been attractive irrespective of her looks, but there is no way that I can prove that.

    And, she has absolutely great taste in perfumery. I simply love the perfume she wears.

    And she love the chase - it does seem to be the Electra complex - she has craved but never won her father's doting attention and approval, who couldn't be less bothered about her existence. Hence, she is attracted to people when she is chasing them, and she finds people to be worthless the moment they accept her or succumb to her charms. In this context, my sceptical, half-acceptance of her is quite attractive to her.


    And, I find that over the past 3 years, she has become a tad less transactional and a tad more well-rounded and appealing socially. Since I am a big believer in giving second and third chances to people, I find her journey to become a better person to be quite attractive.

    I wouldn't not have liked her in 2016, nor in 2017. But in 2019, I am leaning towards beginning to like the 2019 version of her that is still on an unfinished self-improvement journey- and hence I am here on this forum, seeking advice.
    Last edited by NycGuy2019; 10-18-2019 at 07:10 PM.

  4. #24
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    I am sure she appreciates you and you intrigued her being reserved not falling for her charms and an obvious beauty.
    During the last three years you got closer. Both of you went through different relationships and I think you somehow thought that your friendship with her is stronger than these relationships until she met the last man.
    Maybe that's is why you are feeling that the dynamic between has changed.
    If I were you, I would just backed off and let her get own with her man. If she will feel that you are getting invested, wondering what's the current status of your friendship etc, she most probably pull away.
    I think you both are working well if you are both a little bit out of reach for each other.
    Very well written thread by the way.

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  6. #25
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    Originally Posted by Rose Mosse
    I'm not sure what you see in her. By your account of things, she's a parasite and a dingaling/an airhead. She may very well not be at all and it's your perspective that's colouring the portrayal of her. I don't see anything manipulative about her to be honest... just a lot of air. I'm sure she has other redeeming qualities.

    If you do find your friendship valuable and want to spend more time with her, I don't see why not. I just can't for the life of me imagine how this person would contribute to my life if I were in your position.
    Thank you so much. You're correct in that there is no active play at serious manipulation or deception from her side. She is dominating, and would like me to do things for her, and is clear in her ask and expectations, she doesn't try to indirectly nudge me into doing something.

    In fact, she admitted to me that she was somewhat deceptive in her 2 long-term relationships ( her current partner, soon to be ex, is her classmate on campus who is now long distance, and she had a long term relationship with a high school sweetheart earlier that she had through college). And that she has reflected on how she deceived these two people (a little bit) and would like to have more candid and open conversation going forward.

    Infact, she has admitted that her psychology classes have helped her understand the value of honest communication, and that, honest communication is what she now seeks to do in her interactions - by being honest about who she is, what she is planning, what she is seeking.

    I find her honest communication to be very attractive - no one is perfect, and neither is she. But being able to speak with her openly and have a honest response from her to just about any question - is something that I find quite charming.

  7. #26
    Platinum Member ThatwasThen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NycGuy2019
    Yes, I am not sure that I want to "go beyond" friendship - a short-term approach is the only sensible way to look at this, especially given her candidness about going with the flow, and, about how she is able to draw in countless men, at will, to do her bidding, without needing to give anything in return.
    Well, she's giving something in return, she's making you all feel important with her oversharing which, I'm sure, is her intent. Afterall when you feel important and you have a chemical reaction to her (apparent) vulnerability, she gets what she needs from you and the other "countless" men she's drawn into her web.

    She's also candid enough to admit that she has broken several hearts on account of ill-matched expectations, and that she couldn't care less.
    How charming of her. Such a minx.

    She says she watches women (out of curiosity) when she is walking on the road, but not the men - she couldn't be less bothered about the men, and yet all the men watch her.
    Well, women appear to be the competition and I wouldn't be surprised if other women pick up on that and that is why many women "don't like her." (or her type). I think mostly because so many men fall under the spell that her type conjures.

    But being able to speak with her openly and have a honest response from her to just about any question - is something that I find quite charming.
    Yes, of course you do. Marilyn Monroe comes to mind.

    The only thing I can suggest is to keep yourself well aware of the web she weaves and don't be one of those "countless men" that she manipulates without care... even if she finds you intriguing for doing so. She has you introducing her to your network of associates and helping her through a couple of "crisis's" already so she's getting from you, as I've said, things she can't do or is to lazy to do on her own. Don't fall into the trap of being her personal saviour. That's a unhealthy place to cement yourself into.

    Cheers.

  8. #27
    Platinum Member bluecastle's Avatar
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    Ah, yes, I thought I was smelled the perfume of Older Dude & Younger Lass. No judgement. I know it well.

    Not to reduce your epic to the Twitter version, but it's all pretty clear. Everything you're saying about her, especially the stuff you find compelling, can to my eyes be reduced to: she's 25.

    Not saying all 25 year olds are this, but this one is, playing the minx-card for a bit, a rite of passage for many youngsters in the early days of adulthood in a city like New York. She's hot, quick, interested in some intellectual frou-frou and some spiritual woo-woo, with men used as a mirror to validate it all. Not sure how long you've been in town, or what parts of town you've been spending time in, but in my day (not long ago) this sort of thing was hardly a unicorn. More like the norm, easy enough to find at a coffee shop on Bedford Ave, that vintage bookstore on St. Marks. Ah, memories...

    Were you invisible to such women when you were 25? Guess I'm just trying to understand the specific draw to this one, in your mid-30s. Or is it that you struggle with the other kind of woman of whom there is no shortage in New York, the 30something intellectual powerhouse whose minx-like days are behind her, stories laughed about over cheese and pinot, or who never bothered with those days because she had bigger fish to fry? They won't give you the same gossamer chase, or the adrenaline shot of feeling like an Accomplished Man, but they've got real depths, not just the aspirational version that gets watered down by turning everything into batted eyelashes and validation.

    At the end of the day, I think your infatuation with her says more about where you are, today, than it does about her. She's as much a vessel of self-improvement and self-escape for you as you are for her, but those nine years present a critical difference. This is her youth. She may giggle at the nymph she was when she's 34, but do you think that giggling will be in the cottage you two share when you're 43? Be careful not to get too hung up on that story. There is only one of her in your life, but as she's made clear to you there are plenty of yous in hers.

  9. #28
    Platinum Member ThatwasThen's Avatar
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    There is only one of her in your life, but as she's made clear to you there are plenty of yous in hers.
    ... Indeed! ...

    You're correct in that there is no active play at serious manipulation or deception
    Well, I'll give you that there is no active play at deception but there certainly is in manipulation, that or you do have that White Knight Syndrome I alluded to earlier when I warned you not to let her weave you into a web of doing her bidding (or using you to advance whatever agenda she has.) Frankly, I suspect if you stopped introducing her to contacts and stopped bailing her out of her crisis's, she'd soon enough fade on you. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I read the story you've painted of her.

  10. #29
    Member simple cure's Avatar
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    Wow, this thread is such a treat. I'm enjoying the correct spelling, air of intelligence and academia. And everything about it, I think you all made my day.
    I agree in advance, I have a boring life.

  11. #30
    Platinum Member Rose Mosse's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NycGuy2019
    Thank you so much. You're correct in that there is no active play at serious manipulation or deception from her side. She is dominating, and would like me to do things for her, and is clear in her ask and expectations, she doesn't try to indirectly nudge me into doing something.

    In fact, she admitted to me that she was somewhat deceptive in her 2 long-term relationships ( her current partner, soon to be ex, is her classmate on campus who is now long distance, and she had a long term relationship with a high school sweetheart earlier that she had through college). And that she has reflected on how she deceived these two people (a little bit) and would like to have more candid and open conversation going forward.

    Infact, she has admitted that her psychology classes have helped her understand the value of honest communication, and that, honest communication is what she now seeks to do in her interactions - by being honest about who she is, what she is planning, what she is seeking.

    I find her honest communication to be very attractive - no one is perfect, and neither is she. But being able to speak with her openly and have a honest response from her to just about any question - is something that I find quite charming.
    I hope you don't mind me saying this but your bar is pretty low. Honest communication is something decent human beings generally engage in so the idea that this person is awarding you this type of communication or engagement after three years of back and forth sexual chemistry and friendship seems a a bit like scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's existed this way for this long and you've gotten used to this very, very low level affirmation or gratification from knowing her. I don't think anyone has to take psychology lessons to understand that honesty is required in real life. I understand what you mean by finding it rewarding seeing someone grow. I'm just not very sold on the idea of her being a partner in the great ups and downs of life, if you get my drift.

    She's just naive and sheltered, a little bratty even, for her requests and expectations of you. Like I mentioned, I don't see anything beyond that. She's an overgrown child, unfortunately. If you feel comfortable with that, I don't think it's anyone's place to tell you to cut her off or stop communicating with her.

    I'm just wondering why you've placed your bar so low and what's holding you back from looking for far greater connections or women/peers more on your level.

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