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Are we still just friends? Or are we less?


NycGuy2019

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2016-17

3 years back, met an insanely beautiful ex-model who started grad school at my college, where I am a research student, at a session I ran at this jobs related club. She liked my session enough to ask to stay in touch and a few days later, asked to be trained for job interviews - which I accepted as long as it was in a group.

Did a few group mentoring sessions that she pulled together - the group became friendly and a tad social, so I hung out a little and purposely ignored an obvious attraction that had built up from her side - I actually don't like her that much (See below for why). I watched from the sides as she dumped her boyfriend and paired up with a classmate [ both were hunks, socially pleasing, rich and not as intelligent as her]. This ends with her getting a fabulous job. She likes me, likes my reserve with her which she thinks is shyness, and is intrigued that I am one of the very few people that has not hit on her. I am interested in someone else, by the way.

 

About Her

Ex-model is a misnomer -she did that for money, and is otherwise a design student with a great portfolio, comes from a really wealthy family (doesn't need to work for money) and has interests in linguistics, free speech, Greek philosophy and French literature. Former gymnast and lacrosse player as well. Ignores rules, tells small lies all the time, can't hear no, takes over and dominates a group situation all the time, wants the best professional job out there at any cost, cheats on exams/job screens, and is not liked by most girls. End justifies the means type of outlook.

At the same time, is deeply into meditation and values relationships, (now) hates modelling, craves for acceptance from more people (especially women) has a child-like innocence that springs up from time to time, and a strong maternal instinct as well.

 

2017-18

We keep in touch, meet in a few social gatherings, am still not interested in her, and she's with her classmate/ boyfriend.

We chat a little bit from time to time - it's clear that I am interested in another girl that I have been seeing lately.

2018-19

She has a major work crisis and reaches out for help, and so I spent hours and hours helping her out. Her classmate/boyfriend switches jobs and countries. She's grateful. I am still not interested. She asks if we are good friends - I tell her no, just friends. She thinks it's really harsh of me to say that.

2019-20

She quits her job, goes in search of life's meaning, and does a short course in psychology. We are still in touch. She takes relationship advice from time to time as she trusts my judgement. The psychology course does wonders of sorts. She is now clearer in her communication and utterly honest about who she is - dominating, guileful etc. She is not sure of what she wants to become (philosopher, mathematician, art gallery owner), but she wants peace and harmony around her, and in honest communication.

 

I end a casual dating relationship that I had with another girl.

 

We start to hang out more and more. We meet every day. We exchange over 20 messages a day. She shares intimate details of her past- like really really intimate. I do the same. I am still doing my research, and she's back on campus, doing some part-time work. I am doing well, by the way, winning awards and competitions and she finds that attractive. She likes winners, she's candid enough to say.

She has another major crisis and is stressed out. Again looks to me for advice. Again I end up spending hours and hours advising her and charting a path for her. She's grateful and acknowledges that my stamp is all over her. She says that she has realised from small small things I have done that I care for her. She says this with a smile. I am not certain that I care deeply. I tell her that I am a compassionate person.

 

She wants to "copy" me - wants to go to every forum and event and competition that I go to, wants to be on my team, wants to be introduced to the successful people I know. I start inviting her to some dinners with my professional circle.

I still don't like a lot about her, but do like the honest communication - am a sucker for it.

We have long deep genuine conversations about relationships in general. She likes it a lot and shares family photos, childhood photos, her favorite songs etc.

I do the same. She is quite open to talk about her family and her childhood and to hear about my mine.

 

I tell her I can share my highs with anyone, but want to find someone who will share my lows. She says she'll share my lows.

 

She makes me take a psychometric test to see how I score compared to her. I indulge her. We are similar on some things and quite dissimilar on others. She wants someone very similar to her, and yet, appreciates that we are complementary. She's a little confused, I think.

 

She moves to end long distance relationship with her classmate - it's lingering on, but she has moved on.

She has met a guy that she sort of likes- he is goofy and funny, and he used a cheesy pickup line on her to which she was surprised that she was happy to respond. She is seeing him upto several times a week - they do interesting, funny goofy things when they hang out. She's going with him for a holiday at the end of the year. He'll make her do even more goofy things, and that is the exact reason why she is going. And he's exactly like her on the psychometric test. I ask her if 2020 is going to be about this goofy new guy. She says she doesn't know, but she finds him handsome and she'll take a few pictures of him - he'll model for the photographer in her. She loves to be behind the camera these days.

 

I ask her if we should talk about things a little because I have been a constant presence in her life for 3 years now. I tell her that we should end a few things. She still wants to hang out with me and my social/professional network, and she doesn't want to define anything - just go with the flow. She has an obvious attraction to me - and now our chats are helping her re-discover a deeply intimate and private side to herself.

She's also invited herself to 2 projects that I am doing on campus

At times she shows an enormous interest in me, her eyes follow me around, and at other times she winks and tells me to get a French lover.

 

2020 - 21

What should I make of this situation?

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You are quite the eloquent writer. When you say you want to end a few things, what does than mean, exactly? What do you want with her? Can you define it? To thine own self be true.

 

Otherwise, it sounds like this woman has a flirtatious nature and way of dealing with men that she has learned gets her what she wants. She may be puzzled as to why it doesn't totally work on you. This is not the same as being interested, though. She is not used to being distanced by men is my read.

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That reads like cliffnotes for worthwhile novel. Thanks for sharing the story!

I am inclined to think that you would be wise to keep your feelings in check, possibly pull back a bit.

She seems like someone who takes getting her way very naturally, so why wouldn't you go the next step? Because this is just how she wants it.

If she wanted more from you she would have let you know by now.

Nothing personal, you fit a thing she wanted, if you go beyond that I'm pretty sure you will not like the results.

But then what do I really know? Maybe I'm totally wrong and giving you terrible advice.

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Curious to know if she's younger than you, though it doesn't change the general tenor of what I see here.

 

It's not really so complicated, is it? You're smart and eloquent enough to give it some flair—appreciate all that, by the way—but this is a kind of friendships and flirtationship. There's plenty genuine there, but there's also the insincere edge you both enjoy and cultivate. That's the simulacrum stuff, where you can each use each other to play out little fantasies, indulge in certain "feelings" and "experiments" in a laboratory of two made safe because the exit doors are always marked, and wide open.

 

Million dollar question, evaded in your words, is: What do you want?

 

Were I to venture a hypothesis? Well, this part isn't as gentle. I'd say you are feeling her outgrowing you, a bit, as well as feeling yourself outgrowing her, and you don't like that. You want to nudge the compass back, just a touch, so your place in her life is as it was—pure sparkles, no grit. But you're not a fool, grit is grit, so you're also thinking of distancing yourself a bit—so, who knows, maybe you have room to enjoy something less fluttery and more genuine. You're just not quite ready to draw that hard line in the sand, even if it meant a more genuine friendship, because the sparkles are nice. And here you are.

 

Observations? If I was reading the above as a piece of literature, I would say the protagonist (you) holds his own worth at a level approximately twice as high as the level of the heroine's (her). I'd say he sees her more as character in his personal story, than a woman carving out her own—and in that there is the hitch: she polishes his shine, but the price of that polish is disrespect. He is not quite capable of respecting her, as person. Close, but not quite. He takes her half as seriously as he takes himself, and both he and she knows this. They have found ways to play on that jagged edge, and grow a bit, but a jagged edge is a jagged edge. To grow even taller, and richer, they need to let go—at least for a good stretch.

 

But can their human hearts and human bodies and human egos handle that? That is the stuff for the third act, so ask yourself: What story do you want to write?

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It sounds like you've been friends for a long time but it never made it to the dating arena. Just curious what type of journal format/outline this is with 2020-2021 already entered? Are you setting up a manuscript for a novel?

2016-17

We keep in touch, meet in a few social gatherings, am still not interested in her, and she's with her classmate/ boyfriend.

2018-19

She has a major work crisis and reaches out for help, and so I spent hours and hours helping her out.

2019-20

She quits her job, goes in search of life's meaning, and does a short course in psychology.

2020 - 21

What should I make of this situation?

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If you didn't "like her a lot," then why were you exchanging 20 messages and sharing intimate details? Also, why this in depth story about her character and life? You seem very invested for someone you claim to not really like or respect.

 

I also find it odd that you have tell us how compassionate, giving and successful you are in school. It is not relevant. Modesty is a big plus in my book.

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That she is manipulating you into Life Coaching her through things she isn't confident enough or has networked enough to form on her own and she pays you for your services by stroking your ego?

Thanks!

Yes, that is a pretty accurate description.

It's not just stroking of my ego, it's also some camaraderie and an more recently, an utterly honest admission of who she is and how she operates. More recently, there is also an insane level of personal information she's shared, which one would normally not share with even close family members, potentially not even with one's eventual love interest. There is something magically bewitching and charming in this kind of forthrightness, that lets me see her in a raw and earthy way.

I find myself hooked to this level of daring honesty, since her utterly detailed sharing is naturally providing me with a window into another human being. I guess this is how she is playing her Sirens act (Greek mythology reference).

This probably does not end well, then.

Thanks for the forewarning.

A million thanks!

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You are quite the eloquent writer. When you say you want to end a few things, what does than mean, exactly? What do you want with her? Can you define it? To thine own self be true.

 

Otherwise, it sounds like this woman has a flirtatious nature and way of dealing with men that she has learned gets her what she wants. She may be puzzled as to why it doesn't totally work on you. This is not the same as being interested, though. She is not used to being distanced by men is my read.

 

She's honest enough, of late, to admit that she has drawn in over 50 men into her life at various points, for various reasons. And has taken their "help" without giving anything back in any way. She also admits that I can read her too well and that she finds this to be attractive.

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You say "daring honesty", I say "millennial, minx-like oversharing"—the sort of stuff that gets the #brave hashtag, and the peach emoji, on an IG post of someone's butt in a vintage bikini above a caption about overcoming an eating disorder. It's got some graduate school gloss, I get it, but it's just a different flavor of the same candy, and you've got a sweet tooth for it.

 

Again, something about the way you write about her has this whiff of something you don't take seriously. It's more 2D than 3D, like describing the dirt on the mountain as opposed to the dirt on your body after hiking the mountain. Maybe that's where you are right now, liking that detached approach to the "mystery" of humanity. In this, she has presented a perfect vessel: half person, half persona.

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That reads like cliffnotes for worthwhile novel. Thanks for sharing the story!

I am inclined to think that you would be wise to keep your feelings in check, possibly pull back a bit.

She seems like someone who takes getting her way very naturally, so why wouldn't you go the next step? Because this is just how she wants it.

If she wanted more from you she would have let you know by now.

Nothing personal, you fit a thing she wanted, if you go beyond that I'm pretty sure you will not like the results.

But then what do I really know? Maybe I'm totally wrong and giving you terrible advice.

 

Yes, I am not sure that I want to "go beyond" friendship - a short-term approach is the only sensible way to look at this, especially given her candidness about going with the flow, and, about how she is able to draw in countless men, at will, to do her bidding, without needing to give anything in return. She's also candid enough to admit that she has broken several hearts on account of ill-matched expectations, and that she couldn't care less. She says she watches women (out of curiosity) when she is walking on the road, but not the men - she couldn't be less bothered about the men, and yet all the men watch her.

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It sounds like you've been friends for a long time but it never made it to the dating arena. Just curious what type of journal format/outline this is with 2020-2021 already entered? Are you setting up a manuscript for a novel?

 

Not quite a novel here. Four chapters though, and normally, in life the number of such chapters with one individual, stops at 1. The constant presence in my life of this distant but demanding orb is now forcing me to ask questions - do I let if flow as it has for 3+ years, or, do I give it some shape?

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Curious to know if she's younger than you, though it doesn't change the general tenor of what I see here.

 

It's not really so complicated, is it? You're smart and eloquent enough to give it some flair—appreciate all that, by the way—but this is a kind of friendships and flirtationship. There's plenty genuine there, but there's also the insincere edge you both enjoy and cultivate. That's the simulacrum stuff, where you can each use each other to play out little fantasies, indulge in certain "feelings" and "experiments" in a laboratory of two made safe because the exit doors are always marked, and wide open.

 

Million dollar question, evaded in your words, is: What do you want?

 

Were I to venture a hypothesis? Well, this part isn't as gentle. I'd say you are feeling her outgrowing you, a bit, as well as feeling yourself outgrowing her, and you don't like that. You want to nudge the compass back, just a touch, so your place in her life is as it was—pure sparkles, no grit. But you're not a fool, grit is grit, so you're also thinking of distancing yourself a bit—so, who knows, maybe you have room to enjoy something less fluttery and more genuine. You're just not quite ready to draw that hard line in the sand, even if it meant a more genuine friendship, because the sparkles are nice. And here you are.

 

Observations? If I was reading the above as a piece of literature, I would say the protagonist (you) holds his own worth at a level approximately twice as high as the level of the heroine's (her). I'd say he sees her more as character in his personal story, than a woman carving out her own—and in that there is the hitch: she polishes his shine, but the price of that polish is disrespect. He is not quite capable of respecting her, as person. Close, but not quite. He takes her half as seriously as he takes himself, and both he and she knows this. They have found ways to play on that jagged edge, and grow a bit, but a jagged edge is a jagged edge. To grow even taller, and richer, they need to let go—at least for a good stretch.

 

But can their human hearts and human bodies and human egos handle that? That is the stuff for the third act, so ask yourself: What story do you want to write?

 

You say "daring honesty", I say "millennial, minx-like oversharing"—the sort of stuff that gets the #brave hashtag, and the peach emoji, on an IG post of someone's butt in a vintage bikini above a caption about overcoming an eating disorder. It's got some graduate school gloss, I get it, but it's just a different flavor of the same candy, and you've got a sweet tooth for it.

 

Again, something about the way you write about her has this whiff of something you don't take seriously. It's more 2D than 3D, like describing the dirt on the mountain as opposed to the dirt on your body after hiking the mountain. Maybe that's where you are right now, liking that detached approach to the "mystery" of humanity. In this, she has presented a perfect vessel: half person, half persona.

 

Thank you Sir, for your flowing, enchanting prose. There is certainly an edge that our interaction has, one that is missing in many connections. The edge with her is far more intense and daring than any other edge I have explored with any other connection with the opposite sex - and this intensity acts as a charm.

I do practice detachment and teach meditation in one other chapter in my life - and that is another dimension of mine that is of interest to her.

And yes, her extreme sharing does create an intimate space shared by the two of us. I have taken to the spirit of the times to do some extreme sharing as well, and have had the pleasure to having her genuinely listen and try to understand.

Her extreme sharing has also led us both to a conclusion that I find surprising in its contrariness - that despite all that she has done and done, she's actually a traditional, somewhat conservative person at heart, and that she is not a feminist at heart.

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Is she a muse for your musings? Maybe you just like looking at her so whatever she does or says is magic unicorn poop? 🦄🌈

Not quite a novel here. Four chapters though, and normally, in life the number of such chapters with one individual, stops at 1. The constant presence in my life of this distant but demanding orb is now forcing me to ask questions - do I let if flow as it has for 3+ years, or, do I give it some shape?
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Is she a muse for your musings? Maybe you just like looking at her so whatever she does or says is magic unicorn poop? 🦄🌈

 

She is definitely easy on the eye - easier than most women most men would have met in their lifetimes. But she reads philosophy and Camus, talks about her ballet classes and, expresses in some detail, what she learnt from her sports lessons in school when she had to drop out of national levels in a sport on account of injury. So, physical charm apart, there is enough that makes her interesting.

 

I am a sucker for conversations that involve philosophy and literature and meditation, irrespective of who my conversation partner is .

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If you didn't "like her a lot," then why were you exchanging 20 messages and sharing intimate details? Also, why this in depth story about her character and life? You seem very invested for someone you claim to not really like or respect.

 

I also find it odd that you have tell us how compassionate, giving and successful you are in school. It is not relevant. Modesty is a big plus in my book.

 

Thanks for your advice about modesty - will certainly keep that in mind. Thank you for taking a minute to advice a random stranger struggling to understand his situation better.

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Not sure how old you are, but do note that pixies and pixie dust always flutter off, as that which is fluttery is interesting because it can never quite be held. That's poetry for: be smart, and don't mistake sugar cubes for veggies. Teeth do rot, with age, if not taken care of.

 

Hitch too much of your self-conception on this sort of wagon, in other words, and you'll become vague to yourself. As I think has started to happen. Just as a walk around a single block in Paris is more profound than any poem about Paris, real connection, particularly the romantic variety, is much more profound than the misty version that is never quite touchable.

 

If she was not easy on the eye, this would all be simple: she would be your friend. Perhaps you have it in you to actually just be her friend? Or perhaps you have it you to admit that you don't quite believe a woman like her, at least where she is today, possesses the stuff that makes for real friendships—or, really, much of anything real?

 

I have dated a number of women who I describe in the following terms: great characters, if they existed in a novel, but not so great characters to invest much heart or soul into. Is she such a character? Only you know.

 

Can we get some ages here, by the way? I'll shift and sharpen my approach, a bit.

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I'm not sure what you see in her. By your account of things, she's a parasite and a dingaling/an airhead. She may very well not be at all and it's your perspective that's colouring the portrayal of her. I don't see anything manipulative about her to be honest... just a lot of air. I'm sure she has other redeeming qualities.

 

If you do find your friendship valuable and want to spend more time with her, I don't see why not. I just can't for the life of me imagine how this person would contribute to my life if I were in your position.

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Not sure how old you are, but do note that pixies and pixie dust always flutter off, as that which is fluttery is interesting because it can never quite be held. That's poetry for: be smart, and don't mistake sugar cubes for veggies. Teeth do rot, with age, if not taken care of.

 

Hitch too much of your self-conception on this sort of wagon, in other words, and you'll become vague to yourself. As I think has started to happen. Just as a walk around a single block in Paris is more profound than any poem about Paris, real connection, particularly the romantic variety, is much more profound than the misty version that is never quite touchable.

 

If she was not easy on the eye, this would all be simple: she would be your friend. Perhaps you have it in you to actually just be her friend? Or perhaps you have it you to admit that you don't quite believe a woman like her, at least where she is today, possesses the stuff that makes for real friendships—or, really, much of anything real?

 

I have dated a number of women who I describe in the following terms: great characters, if they existed in a novel, but not so great characters to invest much heart or soul into. Is she such a character? Only you know.

 

Can we get some ages here, by the way? I'll shift and sharpen my approach, a bit.

 

Ages: Her 25 and Me 34.

 

More about me: I am quite a simple straightforward person, slightly shy on the romantic axis (big draw for her). Used to be quite good-looking, and several women still find me attractive, though I wouldn't call myself a handsome man anymore. I do have a fabulous baritone and have seen situations where women swoon when I speak. I remember casually speaking with a woman about politics on the NJ Transit from NYC to Morristown once - and she started to have an orgasm, which she did "complete" on the train. I have had a few other situations where women would petulantly flirt with me, then realise that I actually have solid intellect and notable academic/research distinction, and would then express their remorse at having started with me the wrong way, and then try to do a serious reset.

 

More about her- I think one of the commentators might be onto something by calling this a free life coaching situation. However, I have been there too. What is different here, is that she finds my detachment to be quite attractive. She is not used to having men handle her in a detached manner.

 

And I have refused her help quite a few times, when it's obvious that it is not a crisis that she is tackling.

 

She has also noted that she completely trusts my judgement even though my suggestions usually do not appeal to her instantaneously - her way to deal with things is to hustle and hope for the best. My way is to follow the book. But, she says, and this is the part that causes me to like her a bit - is that she listens to my differing point of view / criticism and, often ends up doing what I have suggested even though her emotional brain is telling her to do something else.

 

Intriguingly, I have also seen her work with other people (in paid capacity), where she is their coach, their agony aunt, or, is genuinely helping a girl that she would like to favor - and in those moments, she is sincere, forthcoming, helpful and genuine in a good way - and she radiates happiness when she does this. That tempts me to tell her to consider teaching as a profession , which is something she finds appealing (among other professional choices).

 

And, her ability to have a somewhat serious conversation about philosophy, literature, ballet and opera - is quite attractive to me, to be honest. I would like to say that these talents would have been attractive irrespective of her looks, but there is no way that I can prove that.

 

And, she has absolutely great taste in perfumery. I simply love the perfume she wears.

 

And she love the chase - it does seem to be the Electra complex - she has craved but never won her father's doting attention and approval, who couldn't be less bothered about her existence. Hence, she is attracted to people when she is chasing them, and she finds people to be worthless the moment they accept her or succumb to her charms. In this context, my sceptical, half-acceptance of her is quite attractive to her.

 

 

And, I find that over the past 3 years, she has become a tad less transactional and a tad more well-rounded and appealing socially. Since I am a big believer in giving second and third chances to people, I find her journey to become a better person to be quite attractive.

 

I wouldn't not have liked her in 2016, nor in 2017. But in 2019, I am leaning towards beginning to like the 2019 version of her that is still on an unfinished self-improvement journey- and hence I am here on this forum, seeking advice.

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I am sure she appreciates you and you intrigued her being reserved not falling for her charms and an obvious beauty.

During the last three years you got closer. Both of you went through different relationships and I think you somehow thought that your friendship with her is stronger than these relationships until she met the last man.

Maybe that's is why you are feeling that the dynamic between has changed.

If I were you, I would just backed off and let her get own with her man. If she will feel that you are getting invested, wondering what's the current status of your friendship etc, she most probably pull away.

I think you both are working well if you are both a little bit out of reach for each other.

Very well written thread by the way.

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I'm not sure what you see in her. By your account of things, she's a parasite and a dingaling/an airhead. She may very well not be at all and it's your perspective that's colouring the portrayal of her. I don't see anything manipulative about her to be honest... just a lot of air. I'm sure she has other redeeming qualities.

 

If you do find your friendship valuable and want to spend more time with her, I don't see why not. I just can't for the life of me imagine how this person would contribute to my life if I were in your position.

 

Thank you so much. You're correct in that there is no active play at serious manipulation or deception from her side. She is dominating, and would like me to do things for her, and is clear in her ask and expectations, she doesn't try to indirectly nudge me into doing something.

 

In fact, she admitted to me that she was somewhat deceptive in her 2 long-term relationships ( her current partner, soon to be ex, is her classmate on campus who is now long distance, and she had a long term relationship with a high school sweetheart earlier that she had through college). And that she has reflected on how she deceived these two people (a little bit) and would like to have more candid and open conversation going forward.

 

Infact, she has admitted that her psychology classes have helped her understand the value of honest communication, and that, honest communication is what she now seeks to do in her interactions - by being honest about who she is, what she is planning, what she is seeking.

 

I find her honest communication to be very attractive - no one is perfect, and neither is she. But being able to speak with her openly and have a honest response from her to just about any question - is something that I find quite charming.

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