Project Dating!

[Ian4996]

400! Wow!

Did you find it hard to remain enthusiastic and positive throughout your 100+ dates Batya? And out of interest, what percentage roughly would you say led to 2nd dates? And then to say 5th dates?

The main thing that's making me reticent about going back on Tinder / Pof is the sending out of the initial messages. I don't mind at all making the effort with the messaging once a conversation's under way - but I find it hard mentally if I've sat down for 30 minutes / 45 minutes to type out 10 / 12 first messages, making each one unique to the recipient and then none of them are replied to. I probably will do it, it just doesn't fill me with enthusiasm....................it feels like walking into the kitchen and seeing a massive pile of washing up to do and thinking 'uggggghhh I can't be bothered'

[Batya33]

400! Wow!

Did you find it hard to remain enthusiastic and positive throughout your 100+ dates Batya? And out of interest, what percentage roughly would you say led to 2nd dates? And then to say 5th dates?

The main thing that's making me reticent about going back on Tinder / Pof is the sending out of the initial messages. I don't mind at all making the effort with the messaging once a conversation's under way - but I find it hard mentally if I've sat down for 30 minutes / 45 minutes to type out 10 / 12 first messages, making each one unique to the recipient and then none of them are replied to. I probably will do it, it just doesn't fill me with enthusiasm....................it feels like walking into the kitchen and seeing a massive pile of washing up to do and thinking 'uggggghhh I can't be bothered'

Yes of course at times it felt like a job but a job with an incredibly worthwhile goal.

My stats to the best I remember - about half the time -maybe a bit more- I was interested in seeing the person again -and about half the time he was. About 1/3rd of the time I guess it was mutual so we planned to see each other again if that makes sense. As far as more than 4-5 dates- meaning getting into short term relationship category. I was engaged to a guy I met through a personal ad (print), 6 months dating with another personal ad guy and I had about 6-10 lasted to 4th date, and probably about 5-6 that lasted beyond. Longest relationship from an online site was about three months I think? Several of my friends met their spouses/committed partners through online sites including one who met her second husband a few years ago through Tinder -married I think 2 years now? One of my closest friends of 25 years met his wife through an online site in 1999, married 2001.

There is one reason my husband and I didn't reconnect through online sites -well, maybe two. (we dated in the past seriously, broke up, reconnected almost 8 years later). He made a big mistake on his profile such that he wasn't going to come up in searches for people like me who speak English even though he is an English speaker lol. I think I found his profile once when I was doing a more in depth search. We weren't together at the time and he was not online for very long. Reason 2 is he lived out of state during part of that time so perhaps his geographic restrictions were incompatible with mine. My point is, he was online, we met a different way but we easily could have met online instead. Query whether we would have connected in the same way -I say yes but I am open to discussion on that point!!

If marriage/family had not been my goal I absolutely would not have bothered since I was working an intense job, more than full time, and doing volunteer work and had an active social life etc so the time I put in (not time in messaging -we met in person ASAP after two emails and usually one phone call, maybe two -with rare exception) in meeting people, getting ready to meet them, perusing the profiles - only worth it because of what I wanted out of life. All that time I spent was worth it. I certainly got in my own way far too much though. I used it as one way to meet people. I pursued as many activities and events as possible to meet people. I've also been setting people up -playing matchmaker -for many years so when you do that people return the favor (I still do that despite being married!)

[bluecastle]

I can't help but feel you're presently a bit too caught up in the world of dating apps rather than the world of dating. There is a distinction, not an insignificant one, much like the distinction between social media and our actual social lives.

Dating apps are a lot like social media: addictive, validating, hollowing. That is what makes them success business ventures, but, ironically, it's what can potentially make them very detrimental to actual dating. The thrill of a new "match" is a bit like the thrill of getting a "like"—a little jolt of dopamine that tends to be followed by a little crash. If we're not careful we can find ourselves as focused on getting that hit of dopamine as much, if not more, than we're focused on connecting with actual human beings—the "dating" equivalent of going on a trip just to be able to post cool stuff on Instagram.

Best, in my opinion, to learn to handle all that rather than focus on finding ways to keep the dopamine flooding in. Best to always remember that they are simply a tool for connecting—one of many out there, including just walking out your door—rather than a meaningful addition to our lives in and of themselves. So whether you use one or three or more doesn't really matter; what matters is how you use them.

Per an earlier exchange of ours, I ended up talking to my girlfriend yesterday a bit about her experience with online dating. Came up in the context of a friend. She said she'd only tried it a bit and was primarily put off by what that hit of "match" dopamine did to her brain. She didn't want to be wired to seek that pleasure since it risked retooling how (a) she wanted dating to feel like and (b) how she wanted to feel in her own skin. When she downloaded them again and swiped around, primarily out of boredom, I was her only match—what a tiny needle it turned out I threaded! That we didn't discuss any of that until 8 months in, I think, shows how little stock either of us place in dating apps.

Anyhow, I thought what she said was interesting—how she kind of recognized the effect they could have, wiring her to be incapable of going a day or three without a "match," and that she just didn't want to become that person. I had a different approach, or a different approach to get to a similar place, provably because I just had more experience with the apps. (She'd been married for a decade.) I'd used them pretty heavily, in ways good, bad, lame, lusty, and so on, back 2014, so when I went back on them last year after being in three year relationship, I wasn't really hung up on the seductive weirdness of the platform so much as curious about what that platform could get me. And if it got me nothing but a dry spell—all good. I've got plenty of sources of dopamine flooding that won't mess with my romantic wiring.

In the three weeks since you started this journal it sounds like you've had a very good run. You don't have a girlfriend, sure, but you've had some nice chats, some flutters, some connections, some missed connections. Can you really ask for more? Is a week or two without all that such a dismal thing to imagine? Nah, didn't think so. I say set up profiles on the others, but make sure to not give either the highs of multiple matches or the lows of a dry spell more credit than they deserve.

[Ian4996]

It's really interesting to get an idea on the numbers. Out of 100+ first dates, 6-10 lasted to the 4th date - I guess that just shows how persistent you have to be and how the vast majority of people are just not going to be your match.
The would you have connected with your husband the same way online debate is an interesting one. I think it maybe depends how instant the attraction is - I think attraction has to be pretty instant online as otherwise one person can dismiss the other with the 'no spark' thing. Whereas in person, I think attraction can sometimes grow over time.

Updates (Monday 26th August)

Today's been quite an interesting day in terms of a realisation I've made about where I've been going wrong with these dates. I posted yesterday saying that I felt I was possibly being a bit too passive and nice and that this acting effectively as a platonic friend was resulting in me being repeatedly 'friendzoned' (which is exactly what has been happening).

The reason I say that today's been interesting is that I had a good text chat with Emily (who I went on a date with a couple weeks back) today and she said basically exactly what I've said above, that I'm 'too nice' and alluded to needing someone less passive, with more bravado and sexuality. This is, ironically, how I've been at some points in the past and thinking back, it's always when I've had this more confident sexual attitude that I've effectively attracted women.

So anyway, this conversation was a bit of an eye-opener and I've made a bit of a vow that I'm going to be less passive in future dates. More flirting, more teasing, the odd innuendo, a bit more touchy feely (obviously well within reason!), all the things to build up a bit of sexual tension. I think I can still be a 'nice guy' while doing these things but basically be less of a passive platonic friend and more of a man.

Other things from today: had a drink with Claire this afternoon. She was very much not my match unfortunately. I realised quite quickly that I wasn't really physically attracted to her but we were having a good chat nontheless (with quite a bit of teasing and banter involved). However, we had different views on something that we were debating and it was one of those situations where it was clear we had a different opinion on the subject matter but I was enjoying the debate - I'm quite a curious person and I was enjoying hearing her different point of view. It became apparent that Claire wasn't though! - all of a sudden, she said 'I don't even know why I'm justifying myself to you. I'm going to the toilet', picked up her bag and stormed off. The date ended very quickly after that and then this evening, I saw that she'd deleted / blocked me from both Whatsapp and Bumble.
I did a little bit of self-analysis afterwards: 'did I say anything wrong / offensive there to provoke that reaction?' but my honest answer to that is that no I didn't. It was just 2 people having a debate and 1 person couldn't handle the other person having a different point of view. I'm quite an honest analytical person (which I think probably comes across in my writing of this journal) and I can be my own worst critic at times but I'm definitely not going to lose any sleep over this incident.

Also, I've set up Tinder and have quickly got 11 matches, with which I've started conversations with 8 of them, all of which, to my amazement, have replied! A couple of the conversations have already died out (very short answers, not asking any questions back) but I have got one girl (Casey) agree to a date next Tuesday night. I've also arranged to meet Sara (who cancelled last Friday's date) tomorrow afternoon, so will see how that goes

[Ian4996]

I posted the above before I saw your message Bluecastle, so I'll just reply to a couple of things in there now.

I can't help but feel you're presently a bit too caught up in the world of dating apps rather than the world of dating. There is a distinction, not an insignificant one, much like the distinction between social media and our actual social lives.

I definitely agree with you that dating apps can be an addictive thing similar to social media. Being honest though, I'd definitely say that right now, I'm seeing them as a means to get dates rather than a means to get a dopamine boost from a match or a message (which is kind of how I have been in the past). I'd agree that it is a bit of an ego boost to open my phone in the morning and have several new messages but I do feel I'm focused on the overall objective of getting real-life dates.

In the three weeks since you started this journal it sounds like you've had a very good run. You don't have a girlfriend, sure, but you've had some nice chats, some flutters, some connections, some missed connections. Can you really ask for more?

Yeah I agree, it's not been a bad 3 weeks all in all. I think in terms of the can I ask for more, I'd like to not repeatedly be getting 'friendzoned'! But as I discussed in my previous post, I feel quite enlightened into seeing why that is. Getting that feedback first-hand from someone I've actually been on a date with has really helped confirm in my mind what I was already thinking myself.

[bluecastle]

Love your attitude.

Sounds to me like you're shedding a kind of husk, evolving, coming into sharper focus to yourself—and, in the process, maybe you let go of some core ingredients that are still, you know, you. You were saying as much yourself—and, hey, Emily gave you a little gut-check.

You remind me a bit of my best friend, in the way you analyze all this, including yourself. Him, for instance? A year ago he got out of a 1.5 year long relationship that, upon careful analysis, he realized was too much driven by sex. Result? He has spent much of his year dating "putting sex off," as if that's the answer. But his execution is, to put it generously, clumsy. He still jumps into bed with women early, though now it's in order to not have sex with them, as if "tapping the breaks" just before the underwear comes off sends a clear message that he is interested in "more" than sex. I've kind of been trying to tell him that the message he might be sending is that he's kind of all over the map emotionally, rather than the planet's wokest male, that he is more than allowed to be interested in both sex and something more than sex.

Small adjustments, is the point, though sometimes we have overcompensate in our course corrections to steady out.

[Batya33]

I do want to point out -this was 100 first meets not dates. Some lasted less than an hour - either they were scheduled that way or I discovered a lie upon meeting so I cut things short. A couple of times I had two or three in a day. No one asked anyone out for the first meets. They were not meant to be dates. My guess is thinking about it I probably went on 4 dates with more than 10 of them but I was following your parameters so since that's not how I thought about it I had to try to remember -been a long time! I am still FB friends with some and friendly with one who didn't meet until he invited me on a first date with someone he'd had a first meet with the previous evening (I know, weird, we never did meet up because of distance and the conditions he put on that situation-we've now met three or four times in person)

I do not think you should be touchy feely on a first meet unless she initiates and i wouldn't go too far with that unless you see that person as more like fling material. Lighthearted banter and flirting -sure!

[bluecastle]

I do not think you should be touchy feely on a first meet unless she initiates and i wouldn't go too far with that unless you see that person as more like fling material. Lighthearted banter and flirting -sure!

Agree with this—and meant to say something similar.

If you go into any of this with a set agenda, be it being "touchy" by hour x or being "super extra ultra respectful" until hour y, chances are you won't come off as genuine but like a Man With A Plan. You're likely to strike a woman as someone who is nodding cordially while internally wondering if now is the time to get touchy, or like someone who is nodding cordially while internally wondering if those cordial nods are being interpreted as appealingly kind rather than frustratingly passive.

Or, more simply, you'll come across as someone who is eager to be impressive—and eager to get what he wants—rather than someone who is just being themselves and interested in getting to know another person. All people want is someone who is genuine and genuinely curious about them.

My good friend, mentioned above? He will often report, after dates, that he "went in for a kiss," that he "got a kiss," and, not uncommon, that he sometimes "went in" but got "turned down." I'm always mystified, as it's so different than the way my mind works. I think of kisses, touches, and so on, as something that kind of happens together, very organically, when the time is right, not so different than the various turns a conversation can take—jokey one minute, more serious the next. Maybe it's an hour in, maybe a month in. It's not what I'm sitting across from someone thinking about.

So, yeah, unbutton that metaphorical collar a bit and be your genuine, flirty, charming self. The touches will come when the time is right. Build that together, rather than constructing the blueprint in your mind and using the dates to construct it in reality.

[boltnrun]

If some guy came at me trying to "be a man" I'd leave immediately.

Being a man doesn't mean putting your hands on a woman or diving in trying to kiss her.

Read her clues instead of trying to adhere to some game plan that you think makes you look "manly".

[Batya33]

If some guy came at me trying to "be a man" I'd leave immediately.

Being a man doesn't mean putting your hands on a woman or diving in trying to kiss her.

Read her clues instead of trying to adhere to some game plan that you think makes you look "manly".

I'd say the same thing about your wanting to be "nice" -what do you mean by "nice" that is any different from interacting with a new person in an appropriate and thoughtful and pleasant way - with basic common sense. It sounds like you're trying to play some role with "nice" and then "manly"