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Making sense of the nonsense


asalways

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Hello all. I'm starting to think that dating is like the stock market. Do everything opposite of common sense and you'll be fine. Because 1+1 is just not adding up to 2 anymore.

For background, I'm a 38 year old man and never been married, but have dated on and on, and besides spending tens of thousands of dollars on this activity, I have nothing to show for it.

Sure, there are a lot of generalizations here, but this is from my personal experience, so all I know is what I personally experienced.

 

1) Apparently, being divorced is a very big achievement, and having never been married means that I'm an outcast. How is failing in a relationship a big achievement? It shows you can handle commitment? Really? If you can handle commitment so well, then why did you get divorced? Being at 0 is better than being at a loss, and that's as clear as daylight; but yet, my logic is useless here. Where am I wrong?

 

2) I've been told countless times that I'm too serious and intense. I'm very sorry, but I don't want to drop hundreds of dollars on dates and spend hours driving back and forth only to find out by date 6 that she was never looking for marriage or kids in the first place. But when I ask these questions up front on date 1, I'm done for, I'm too intense. Are we little kids who have to play mind games and drag on and on with senseless text messages and waiting and more waiting only to get the final ultimatum 2 months later when we could have cleared all this up on date 1? Where am I wrong?

 

3) All I want is a woman who will respect me as much as I will respect her, someone to marry, someone to have kids with. But yet, all I get are tire-kickers who give me false positives for weeks and then finally tell me that I'm too intense for them because I gave them too many gifts, and spent too much time and money on them. Is it really that abnormal to be nice anymore? Why is that needy? Why is that desperate? Why are we dating in the first place? Is it all about playing mind games, being passive aggressive, and seeing how much we can irritate the other person? Show too much interest and you're desperate. Show too little interest and you're a flake. Where is the middle ground, and why even have a middle ground, it's a binary operation, a 1 or a 0.

 

4) Why does it take at least 5 years to decide to marry someone? I've shown more love to someone in 3 months than some husbands shown their wives in 5 years, but yet, that was useless. Does time prove anything, of course not, what's better, 5 years of dragging into oblivion or 3 months of decisive action? Again, more nonsense which I don't understand.

 

I'm worn out here, why can't 2 adults just show genuine interest in each other without reverting to kindergarten mentality? Please tell me where I'm wrong, and if the answer is to play the games I described, so be it, I can play mind games like the best of them, I just never thought I'd have to stoop to this level. Thanks for reading.

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1) Apparently, being divorced is a very big achievement, and having never been married means that I'm an outcast. How is failing in a relationship a big achievement? It shows you can handle commitment? Really? If you can handle commitment so well, then why did you get divorced? Being at 0 is better than being at a loss, and that's as clear as daylight; but yet, my logic is useless here. Where am I wrong?

 

Huh? According to who? Look, you are going to run into all kinds of people with all kinds of wacky attitudes and prejudices. The idea in dating is to weed out those who don't match you. People who think you are damaged because you aren't divorced obviously are not your match. As such, they aren't worth thinking about you. Thanks for the date and next!

 

2) I've been told countless times that I'm too serious and intense. I'm very sorry, but I don't want to drop hundreds of dollars on dates and spend hours driving back and forth only to find out by date 6 that she was never looking for marriage or kids in the first place. But when I ask these questions up front on date 1, I'm done for, I'm too intense. Are we little kids who have to play mind games and drag on and on with senseless text messages and waiting and more waiting only to get the final ultimatum 2 months later when we could have cleared all this up on date 1? Where am I wrong?

 

First is wth are you doing spending that kind of money on dates????? What are you doing wrong? That. First dates, initial dates think more casual and cheap. Meet over a drink for happy hour after work. Coffee and chat in a nice area where maybe if things go well, you can extend things and walk around and chat. The idea of those early dates is to get to know the person a bit, have some fun and most importantly start figuring out if they are a match or worth seeing again or not. It is not about spending hundreds of dollars seeking to impress and hoping for an ROI.

 

Second is not what you are asking but how. Sure, I've had plenty of first dates where we talked about our dating goals, what we are looking for. Nothing wrong with that. Quite typical really. So, if women keep telling you that you are too intense - pay attention. How you are asking, bringing up these topics needs serious work.

 

3) All I want is a woman who will respect me as much as I will respect her, someone to marry, someone to have kids with. But yet, all I get are tire-kickers who give me false positives for weeks and then finally tell me that I'm too intense for them because I gave them too many gifts, and spent too much time and money on them. Is it really that abnormal to be nice anymore? Why is that needy? Why is that desperate? Why are we dating in the first place? Is it all about playing mind games, being passive aggressive, and seeing how much we can irritate the other person? Show too much interest and you're desperate. Show too little interest and you're a flake. Where is the middle ground, and why even have a middle ground, it's a binary operation, a 1 or a 0.

 

So how many women have to tell you this before you are willing to take a look at yourself, at what you are doing, at your actions and make some adjustments and changes? If what you are doing isn't working for you and you have people telling straight up what you are doing wrong, why do you insist on doing it? It's not working, change it. When it comes to relationships, people aren't looking to be bought, they want to feel a real emotional connection, they want to get to know you and they want YOU to get to know them. Nobody wants to get overwhelmed with whatever fantasy you have going on in your head about how things should go. Live in the here and now.

 

4) Why does it take at least 5 years to decide to marry someone? I've shown more love to someone in 3 months than some husbands shown their wives in 5 years, but yet, that was useless. Does time prove anything, of course not, what's better, 5 years of dragging into oblivion or 3 months of decisive action? Again, more nonsense which I don't understand.

 

What???!!!! You think you can know a person enough to get married in 3 months? Am I understanding this correctly? I don't know where you get this idea about 5 years, however most sane people will take 1-2 to get to know someone, to bond, connect, learn who this person before they consider marriage. That's normal. Your ideas are not. In fact, right here you are showing the needy, desperate intensity that your dates are pointing out to you over and over.

 

When you find yourself at 38 and pointing fingers at everyone else in the world as the problem....it's not the world that is wrong, it's you. Time for some serious rethinking of how you operate.

 

 

See my answers above. If you really want what you say you want, you have your work cut out for you in terms of adjusting your attitude, your beliefs, and your behavior.

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Welcome to ENA.

 

I'll try, best I can, to address your four points.

 

1. No one thinks divorce is an achievement, and odds are that women do not have an issue with the fact that you've never been divorced, so probably best to try to temper the bitterness-induced sarcasm, since that is, generally, something of a turn off. That said, a 38-year-old man who has never been in a serious thing? Well, that might raise eyebrows in some women, might be a dealbreaker to some, and that's okay. I'm a 39-year-old man—never married, never divorced. While I've never experienced those nevers as a knock against me, I'm aware that when women learn I've never lived with a partner that a little alarm bell sometimes goes off. Makes sense to me. If they're interested in something longterm, partnership-oriented, that builds to cohabitation—well, they may wonder if I'm built for that, interested in that, which I respect. Hopefully they don't write me off—but if they do? All good. Means we're not a match, since I personally prefer to be and feel seen than to go to battle with another's assumptions.

 

2. You do sound a bit serious, a bit intense, to be frank. The impression I'm getting is that you see dating on very transactional terms: that if you profess you want marriage and kids, spend X amount of dollars, Y amount of time, and give Z amount of gifts then it is the woman's duty to respond by marrying you, being inseminated by you, and holding your hand forever until the sun sets. In, ideally, 90 days or less. But dating is not a binary operation. Neither are relationships. Connection is not binary or transactional, but fluid, the building of a fantastical reality with someone, not using someone to realize a preexisting fantasy in your head and heart.

 

3. You may find yourself hard pressed to find a woman who respects you, and feels respected by you, when you refer to women as "tire-kickers" and women whose feelings don't align with yours as "false positives." It sounds like, should a woman have feelings that don't match yours, or changes her mind as she assesses you and the potential for compatibility, you get irked at the audacity of that, feeling that you are being "gamed." Another way to put that is: you do not respect the uniqueness and reality of their humanity, which they may be sensing quick, despite all the money you're spending.

 

4. It does not take "at least 5 years" to decide to marry someone. For some it takes an hour, for others a decade. The amount of time, generally speaking, that it takes to decide is the amount of time two people take to make that decision together. I emphasize "two people" for a reason, because you sound very focused on you rather than on embracing the mystery of another person, and seeing what kind of mystery you can make together, and alongside one another. Spending lots of money, giving lots of gifts—this is not "showing love." That is indulging in capitalism. Showing love is generally done by listening—with our eyes, our ears, our bodies—and it's a slow, subtle process that cannot be expedited.

 

You probably won't like this, but the "kindergarten mentality" that you are bemoaning is kind of the mentality that you just showcased in your 4-point referendum on romance. You come across as having an attitude that is disparaging toward women, angry at women, with most of that anger connected to the fact that women you are into have not been as into you. Take some steps toward humility, to remembering that women are just people, not pawns placed on the planet's chess board for your entertainment and needs, and you may find yourself connecting at a frequency that has proven elusive.

 

Were you posting this on a website for an automobile manufacturer, I would understand your frustration. You spend 50K on the BMW, the salesman said this, the warranty said that, but here you are: dead engine on the windy road, two months after buying the thing, and they're refusing to fix it for free or give you a new model. But alas: people are not cars, dating is not business, and relationships are not contractual. And thank God for that, because what they really are is so, so much better than all that. Loosen your grip on the wheel a few degrees and the ride is much more enjoyable.

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As a single woman around your age....I can tell you that we are not all like that.

 

But...Divorce is not an achievement. I don't know anyone who thinks it is. I think The fact that we have been single so long might send a message that we are a little aloof or want to be single. Not the case for me, but I can understand why people would think that.

 

Maybe instead of going straight to the marriage talk, you could feel it out a little more? I completely understand not wanting to waste time--I'm in the same boat! But, perhaps let your gut lead you on this instead of your timeline.

 

It doesn't take five years. If the right man bumped into me at lunch today, I would marry him tomorrow! Again...I think it is a gut instinct. (and now I am planning my lunch-bump-in-to-men strategy...)

 

Any way you look at it, I think it is best to just let things happen.

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As someone who is too intense by nature, I've found that the key is to be on "chill" mode all the time. I found that my chill mode is the "normal" mode for most people.

 

Also women need time to process all the things/emotions(?) when dating. Honestly, I don't know what they are thinking (one of the unsolved mysteries) but I've learned not to rush.

 

Learn to enjoy the game I guess?

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Welcome to ENA.

 

I'll try, best I can, to address your four points.

 

1. No one thinks divorce is an achievement, and odds are that women do not have an issue with the fact that you've never been divorced, so probably best to try to temper the bitterness-induced sarcasm, since that is, generally, something of a turn off. That said, a 38-year-old man who has never been in a serious thing? Well, that might raise eyebrows in some women, might be a dealbreaker to some, and that's okay. I'm a 39-year-old man—never married, never divorced. While I've never experienced those nevers as a knock against me, I'm aware that when women learn I've never lived with a partner that a little alarm bell sometimes goes off. Makes sense to me. If they're interested in something longterm, partnership-oriented, that builds to cohabitation—well, they may wonder if I'm built for that, interested in that, which I respect. Hopefully they don't write me off—but if they do? All good. Means we're not a match, since I personally prefer to be and feel seen than to go to battle with another's assumptions.

 

2. You do sound a bit serious, a bit intense, to be frank. The impression I'm getting is that you see dating on very transactional terms: that if you profess you want marriage and kids, spend X amount of dollars, Y amount of time, and give Z amount of gifts then it is the woman's duty to respond by marrying you, being inseminated by you, and holding your hand forever until the sun sets. In, ideally, 90 days or less. But dating is not a binary operation. Neither are relationships. Connection is not binary or transactional, but fluid, the building of a fantastical reality with someone, not using someone to realize a preexisting fantasy in your head and heart.

 

3. You may find yourself hard pressed to find a woman who respects you, and feels respected by you, when you refer to women as "tire-kickers" and women whose feelings don't align with yours as "false positives." It sounds like, should a woman have feelings that don't match yours, or changes her mind as she assesses you and the potential for compatibility, you get irked at the audacity of that, feeling that you are being "gamed." Another way to put that is: you do not respect the uniqueness and reality of their humanity, which they may be sensing quick, despite all the money you're spending.

 

4. It does not take "at least 5 years" to decide to marry someone. For some it takes an hour, for others a decade. The amount of time, generally speaking, that it takes to decide is the amount of time two people take to make that decision together. I emphasize "two people" for a reason, because you sound very focused on you rather than on embracing the mystery of another person, and seeing what kind of mystery you can make together, and alongside one another. Spending lots of money, giving lots of gifts—this is not "showing love." That is indulging in capitalism. Showing love is generally done by listening—with our eyes, our ears, our bodies—and it's a slow, subtle process that cannot be expedited.

 

You probably won't like this, but the "kindergarten mentality" that you are bemoaning is kind of the mentality that you just showcased in your 4-point referendum on romance. You come across as having an attitude that is disparaging toward women, angry at women, with most of that anger connected to the fact that women you are into have not been as into you. Take some steps toward humility, to remembering that women are just people, not pawns placed on the planet's chess board for your entertainment and needs, and you may find yourself connecting at a frequency that has proven elusive.

 

Were you posting this on a website for an automobile manufacturer, I would understand your frustration. You spend 50K on the BMW, the salesman said this, the warranty said that, but here you are: dead engine on the windy road, two months after buying the thing, and they're refusing to fix it for free or give you a new model. But alas: people are not cars, dating is not business, and relationships are not contractual. And thank God for that, because what they really are is so, so much better than all that. Loosen your grip on the wheel a few degrees and the ride is much more enjoyable.

 

Thanks, very thorough response. And I appreciate your honesty.

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As a single woman around your age....I can tell you that we are not all like that.

 

But...Divorce is not an achievement. I don't know anyone who thinks it is. I think The fact that we have been single so long might send a message that we are a little aloof or want to be single. Not the case for me, but I can understand why people would think that.

 

Maybe instead of going straight to the marriage talk, you could feel it out a little more? I completely understand not wanting to waste time--I'm in the same boat! But, perhaps let your gut lead you on this instead of your timeline.

 

It doesn't take five years. If the right man bumped into me at lunch today, I would marry him tomorrow! Again...I think it is a gut instinct. (and now I am planning my lunch-bump-in-to-men strategy...)

 

Any way you look at it, I think it is best to just let things happen.

 

Agreed, being a businessman by nature with regard to passing time, I'm not used to that kind of thinking. But that can be fixed.

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As someone who is too intense by nature, I've found that the key is to be on "chill" mode all the time. I found that my chill mode is the "normal" mode for most people.

 

Also women need time to process all the things/emotions(?) when dating. Honestly, I don't know what they are thinking (one of the unsolved mysteries) but I've learned not to rush.

 

Learn to enjoy the game I guess?

 

Agreed, "chill" mode as you call it, is the way to go, as you can tell from my experience. I am indeed a quick learner though, this is just another thing to pick up.

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Agreed, being a businessman by nature with regard to passing time, I'm not used to that kind of thinking. But that can be fixed.

 

The important thing is not to compromise who you are for someone else. Be the person you are and enjoy yourself!

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I've got 2 dates this weekend, so I'll put my newfound knowledge to the test. The good news is that it's easier to go from intense to chill, then from chill to intense. So I'm on the right side of the equilibrium on that aspect.

As a funny way to round things off, I'm like the guy in the Geico commercials, except I just didn't just save $500 on my car insurance through Geico, I'll be saving way more than that now on my dates now, so it will be a win-win.

Thanks for the responses, fellow members.

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I've got 2 dates this weekend, so I'll put my newfound knowledge to the test. The good news is that it's easier to go from intense to chill, then from chill to intense. So I'm on the right side of the equilibrium on that aspect.

As a funny way to round things off, I'm like the guy in the Geico commercials, except I just didn't just save $500 on my car insurance through Geico, I'll be saving way more than that now on my dates now, so it will be a win-win.

Thanks for the responses, fellow members.

 

😂 The Geico guy!

You have a good attitude! Have fun on your dates!

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Thanks, very thorough response. And I appreciate your honesty.

 

Happy to help.

 

I think it's always best to remember a few basic things about dating and connecting, starting with the fact that most people you meet will not lead to much. Get cozy with that reality, get intimate with it, and you're on the path to coziness and intimacy. One date, three dates, an entanglement that lasts a month or two, a glass of wine where the conversation gets strained within ten minutes, periods where hopes are raised, others where hopes are dashed—that is the baseline.

 

Not bad, not great, but baseline.

 

Women you meet, women you swipe on, women who seem great on Monday but less great come Friday—those women do not exist to be your person. That is not their goal or purpose in life. They are just people, and being themselves is their only job, just as being yourself is your only job. Take a moment, in your mind, to appreciate that—to thank the billions of women on the planet for being themselves, and to acknowledge how lucky you are to have met the ones you have and to get to meet the ones you have yet to meet, including the ones who have disappointed you and who may still disappoint you.

 

There you are: baseline. It's a nice place, see? The shoulders relax, the mind opens. What happens is...what happens.

 

Another piece of basic advice: ask at least twice as many questions as you give answers. You seem geared toward learning, toward optimization, so write a little code in your mind's operating system that reminds you of this: to ask questions, not give answers. Listen, then ask something else—something big, something small.

 

Giving answers is like giving gifts, spending money: it drowns out another person. And us people? We are all just dying to be seen and heard. Caviar is nice and all, but it doesn't compete with that. Drugs can be fun too, but nothing is more intoxicating—in the sanest, stabilizing of ways—than being seen and heard and meeting someone who wants to see you, hear you.

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The other thought on this is not only slow way down, but remove the laser focus from your end goal, marriage, and onto the more important part - does this woman in front of you actually deserve the time of day from you? Do you like her? Are you physically/sexually attracted to her? Does she raise any major red flags? Do you have enough in common to see each other again? Does she have deal breakers? ......Maybe you need to stop and consider first what are your deal breakers...... Remember that you are looking for a wife, not a wife appliance.

 

If you are in IT, then you understand that there are critical steps in between point A and B and that if they aren't working and fitting in properly, the whole thing will crash and burn. If there is a loose wire between servers, the connection is gone. If you miss a comma or a space in the right place when coding, you get an error message. What you are experiencing in dating is kind of similar. You have to pay attention to those steps/parts in between the points for the whole to work and those in between steps are much more important than the end goal.

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If you are in IT, then you understand that there are critical steps in between point A and B and that if they aren't working and fitting in properly, the whole thing will crash and burn. If there is a loose wire between servers, the connection is gone. If you miss a comma or a space in the right place when coding, you get an error message. What you are experiencing in dating is kind of similar. You have to pay attention to those steps/parts in between the points for the whole to work and those in between steps are much more important than the end goal.

Oooo someone has been studying. Is there any debugger in dating?

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Great post, DF.

 

The thing about the end goals—marriage, kids, partnership, whatever it is—is that they aren't actually endings, but just beginnings, or continuations. Or, per my last post, another compelling set of questions, not answers. So, sure, they are important to have, but just as important to be able to let them linger, a little blurry, on the horizon. They come into focus, or not, together, over time. So how you spend that time (the present) is equally as important as where it leads (the future).

 

With the right attitude—and, of course, with the right person—the transition between the two is pretty seamless, a flow.

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bluecastle and DancingFool, very eloquently said. Indeed, IT and math are my specialties; and psychology was a minor, although they didn't cover dating and romance too much in that course of study. I totally love that baseline comment, that's 100% right there. I think that's the root of my old beliefs, expectations were unreal, and any showing of interest I got in my previous relationships, I internally magnified to unreal proportions. Now that my baseline is more aligned with reality, things will be easier, feelings will be more realistic.

Regarding the IT example, I do have to admit, there were a ton of red flags which I ignored and forgave and gave the benefit of the doubt to the exes. I should have indeed trusted my gut and cut these interactions off myself once the red flags started to pop up. Definitely lessons learned there. Sounds like we're doing a Sprint retrospective during a Scrum call, for all you IT corporate folks out there :)

Since we are talking about connectivity between servers A and B, I can't resist, I have to mention the topic of redundancy and failover. I used to think it was wrong to be dating 3 people at once, but I think that was a fallacy too. It is indeed the right thing to be dating multiple people at once, because anything else means I'm overly-investing emotionally, because again, I'd be making something out of nothing too early. I was already leaning towards this, hence my 2 dates this weekend. I'll be meeting them at Starbucks, and will be following this whole new approach of just chilling and relaxing and getting to know them. I'll take my corporate toughguy hat off and remember how I was in my 20's when I was going out a lot with my friends. Then life took over, then the long hours and responsibilities came up, and that's when the intense side came out and took me whole. Is the dating multiple people at once appropriate you think? Logic tells me yes, and subconsciously, dating multiple people at once will effectively stop me from being over-invested because I'm a single-threaded machine, like everyone else, and my mind and emotions won't be able to go further when multiple people are involved.

 

You know the one thing I can't find online is, videos of actual dates which I can learn from. Machine learning is exactly that, and I see no reason not to learn from people who already know how to do it.

Anyone have any URLs to share of such media?

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My husband and I started dating (again, round two, several years in between) basically on my 39th bday and he was still 38. Never married, never really lived with anyone either. Didn't concern either of us. Everyone has different ideas about what they want in terms of "relationship experience" ranging from not caring at all to being picky/specific. I was a big fan of dating and meeting lots of people at once because my goal was marriage starting at age 21 (I married 21 years later -boy did I get in my own way!) - I didn't want to put all my eggs in one basket especially in my 30s when my clock was a'tickin. I did not have casual sex nor did I like dating people who regularly had casual sex. To me dating lots of people has nothing to do with sexual promiscuity. I did the former, not the latter.

 

Dating was like a part time job for me and required a thick skin. Had I not wanted marriage and family it wouldn't have been worth it. My many years of dating and meeting people was totally worth it because I am happily married and we have an adorable handful of a child. I knew there were no guarantees whatsoever and I'd keep that in mind, too, if I were you.

 

Good luck!

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Personally, I think the term multi-dating is redundant because dating by definition is no commitment, no strings attached, just getting to know the person and weighing whether you want to invest more into that person time period. So yes, you will be meeting, seeing, going out with multiple people. Many dates will be one and done, some will take two or three dates to decide. Eventually, you'll meet a person where you mutually want to invest more. You start seeing each other more, a deeper connection starts to develop which leads to exclusivity. The exclusivity is really quite natural. Your growing interest in each other makes interest in others fade out. Of course, always a good idea to talk about it and be sure you are on the same page. Typically, relationships have these stages where you get past the initial several dates and evaluate whether you want to keep going, then 3-4 months down the road, after you've seen more of the person, their character, their behavior, you evaluate again if they are worth investing in further, another check is about 8-9 months, then finally 1-1.5 years is where people start thinking long term future and whether it's there or not. So it's more of a marathon than a sprint.

 

Another thing about relationships is that people don't move at the exact same pace even when they click. You may be a little ahead, you may be a little behind. Healthy couples are able to check in and also calibrate and either wait or speed up to match up more. It's not forced, though, it's intuitive, natural, easy. In the right relationship, there is a mutual sense of security so if there is some pace difference, it doesn't freak either partner out. Emphasis on the right relationship. If you feel anxious and insecure, better start working out why. It's usually a sign of compatibility issues or even bigger problems.

 

The biggest thing is focusing on finding the right partner rather than trying to make someone fit into what you want. It's not about any old warm body. So spend a lot of time paying attention to who she is and whether that suits you, your life, your values, your goals, etc. Do not whitewash problems and incompatibilities.

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My husband and I started dating (again, round two, several years in between) basically on my 39th bday and he was still 38. Never married, never really lived with anyone either. Didn't concern either of us. Everyone has different ideas about what they want in terms of "relationship experience" ranging from not caring at all to being picky/specific. I was a big fan of dating and meeting lots of people at once because my goal was marriage starting at age 21 (I married 21 years later -boy did I get in my own way!) - I didn't want to put all my eggs in one basket especially in my 30s when my clock was a'tickin. I did not have casual sex nor did I like dating people who regularly had casual sex. To me dating lots of people has nothing to do with sexual promiscuity. I did the former, not the latter.

 

Dating was like a part time job for me and required a thick skin. Had I not wanted marriage and family it wouldn't have been worth it. My many years of dating and meeting people was totally worth it because I am happily married and we have an adorable handful of a child. I knew there were no guarantees whatsoever and I'd keep that in mind, too, if I were you.

 

Good luck!

 

Great to hear a story about happiness coming so late.

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