Struggle to Emotionally let go Despite Really Poor Behaviour

Hi. This is a slightly unusual post in that I'm not asking for advice on a particular dating situation but more on my general mindset. In more than one dating situation in the last couple of years, I've begun dating a woman (I'm male, straight, 35 by the way), I've become attached before she's then displayed really unpleasant behaviour (i.e. obvious dealbreakers).

But I really struggle to emotionally let go. I struggle to let the reality of her behaviour and actions take precedence over the emotional connection I've built up, and even after they've behaved in such a way, I still yearn for them and want nothing more than for their face to pop up on my phone saying I've got a message from them.

Let me give a couple of examples:

Girl 1 (who I dated for about 5 months, late 2017 having met on Tinder)

On Date 4, she mentioned in chatting that she had a date with someone else the following day. This leads to a conversation in which we both agree to stop using Tinder. The following week, I see she's still on it and has updated her photos.

Blows very hot and cold throughout the time we date, at times totally love bombing me, at others not replying to messages for over a day.

After about 2 months, I see 'arrange date with Ant' on a to do list on her laptop. She brushes it off as 'Ant's the guy who's doing my van conversion, it's just a date for him to do the work'.

After 4 months, I see Tinder on her phone again (we'd both deleted it a couple of months earlier). She brushes it off with 'I just put it back on my phone to show my friend how it all works'

Eventually, after numerous cancellations on her part, I summoned up the strength to end things. But because of my huge emotional attachment to her, I continued to contact her for months after and after about 3 months, almost begged for her to give it another try.

Girl 2 (who I dated for only 1 and a half months very recently, having met through Meetup)

After a month and a half of dating (with no relationship talk), she drunkenly kisses a guy who I'd thought of as one of my closest friends. She messages me the following morning to confess.

In the ensuing argument (which takes place first on the phone and then by text), she says some truly horrible despicable things to me (that I won't repeat on here).

We stop seeing each other and I don't see her again for 6 weeks until yesterday when we're both at the same social event as part of the same social group.

We get talking again a bit as part of the group and I buy her a drink when buying a round for several people. She admits 'I don't deserve this from you. I've been a tw*t'. 10 minutes later, she vanishes, no bye to anyone. I drop her an 'everything ok?' message, and get back 'ah sorry, had to go meet a friend'.

Again, inspite of her earlier behaviour and her rudeness yesterday in disappearing without a goodbye, I still yearn for contact from her.

So as I said, I struggle emotionally to let go anyone I get attached to regardless of how badly they treat me. The daft thing is that if anybody else on here posted the above stories, I'd say without a second thought “get rid. Go and find someone who deserves you”.

Can anybody relate? Any advice on how I can stop my heart from ruling my head in these situations?

I can totally relate. I give too much, excuse too much, tolerate too much and still my heart hopes that they will see the error of their ways. If I had more self esteem I would realise that I deserve much better far earlier and get the hell out. I've traced the origins of why I'm like this to the way I was brought up, knowing as I do now (through therapy) that I have maladaptive schemas around abandonment and subjugation. Do you think something similar lies at the heart of why you struggle to let go of people who've treated you badly?

If I had more self esteem I would realise that I deserve much better far earlier and get the hell out

Thanks for the response. I think I'm maybe slightly different in that I do realise at the time that these behaviours aren't right. But I lack the emotional strength to stop my heart ruling my head. E.g. I knew at the time that the chance of the 'Tinder's only on my phone to show my friend' story being true was about 1%. But once I'm emotionally attached to someone, seeing their name pop up on my phone gives me too much of an emotional high. I'm like it's a drug where I know it's not good for me but I'm addicted to the high and don't feel good enough a lot of the time without that high to let it just pass me by.

Do you think something similar lies at the heart of why you struggle to let go of people who've treated you badly?

That's a difficult one. The only possible childhood thing I can think of is that I struggled a lot for friends between 11 and 17 and it was only at the age of 17 that I made friends and developed a social circle. In terms of adulthood and relationships, I'd say it's quite rare that I meet a girl who I'm really attracted to (my fussiness is actually quite famous amongst my friends!). So when I do meet someone with whom I develop a great connection (even if their behaviour makes them totally unsuitable), I think I subconsciously think 'it'll be a long time before I meet someone else who I click with like this'. I think if week in week out I was meeting girls I was really attracted to, I'd brush things off much easier thinking 'I'll meet someone equally great next week'.

Classic fear of rejection and a misunderstanding that rejection is not personal to the one rejected but the person rejecting?

Think about times you have rejected another? Why did you? Nothing overly personal about them? Right?

I’m not just talking about dating but in all aspects. Friendships , job interviews etc.

We all get rejected more than we get accepted. That’s normal. What’s not normal is your abnormal reaction to normal?

You have rejected people too. In many ways. And likely never considered what it meant to them and that’s ok.

But when it happens to you , you get overly obsessed about why and then try to seek acceptance from them when you really shouldn’t care.

Why?

Your heart is telling you one thing about a woman (you love her), but your gut is telling you "no". Obviously you have been doing the right thing and going with your gut.

You'll get over these girls with time, and with a new girlfriend.

I think Billie makes a really good point about rejection—something that, speaking in broad brushstrokes, I think women handle with more grace than men.

When we take rejection personally we infuse it with meaning—and, by extension, with feeling. So let's take Girl 1: after four dates she's still dating, which is pretty normal, not about you. That she feels the need to crassly tell you in the sideways manner she did—that's not about you either, but her revealing her character to you. Yet it sounds like you made it about you, using a moment in which you felt insecure as the moment to get more serious. She was flattered, but clearly didn't take it very seriously. Problem was, the less seriously she took things the more seriously you did, and your connection became less about you and her than about staving off rejection.

What I also see going on here is projecting being mistaken for connecting—or, to put it another way, that ruler you are calling your heart is actually your head. You're turning these women into stories, and it's the story that compels you more than reality. When reality really takes an unappetizing turn, you lean even harder into the story, magnifying it, taking comfort in it, and longing for it to be true. When it fails to become true, you ache, and that ache gets labeled as the heart beating in curious ways, so you turn to the source of the ache to be its healer.

None of that is to negate the feelings you're describing—the hope, the hurt, the latching on instead of letting go—but perhaps if you can see that these feelings are more you-generated than generated by a connection they'll lose some of their sway. Saying "the heart is crazy" or the "heart wants what it wants" is very often a way of rationalizing what is a kind of self-centric view of people: that they are supposed to be one way (the way we want them to be) rather than simply who they are.

Human beings inherently want what we can't have. The kid and the cookie jar: those cookies get really tasty the second the jar is closed and put on the unreachable shelf. As adults we're really no different, though hopefully we learn to see things, including these instincts, a bit more broadly so they aren't as mysterious. We learn that the sweetest cookies are the real ones, not the ones we can't reach, and we learn that it's okay to go a day or a month or whatever without a cookie at all—not a real one, not an imagined one.

So the advice I'd give you is to change the story here a bit—to make it less about figuring out how to get your head to take back the controls from your heart, but to acknowledge how your head is preventing your heart from connecting in a more authentic manner.

I do agree with a lot of what's been said by Bluecastle above. I can take rejection quite hard and I am guilty of building up a connection / relationship in my head beyond what it is at that point.

Also I do agree that I tend to want more what I can't have or what I feel is slipping away from me. With the 2nd girl (the one I saw yesterday), when we were dating and all was well, I was enjoying seeing her and if we had stuff planned for the evening, I'd be looking forward to it all afternoon, but I wouldn't go as far as to say I was in love at that point. The real yearning only started after it all went wrong.

I think though for me, it's a lot easier to be aware of the above things than it is to successfully deal with them. I was thinking before of a job I used to work in years ago working with domestic violence victims. Very often, they'd be beaten black and blue by their partner but be back together within a week. They knew it was the wrong thing to do and would say as such, but didn't have the emotional strength to walk away.

I understand that my dating situations aren't the same as this but I do feel that, like those domestic violence victims, I find it hard to prevent the emotional strains from ruling my logical mind. If Girl 2 had messaged me this morning saying 'do you fancy meeting up this afternoon?', I wouldn't have been able to stop myself accepting like a shot. I've got the emotional strength not to contact her myself but not to not yearn for her or hypothetically to come running if she called.

Something I would say as well is that in my choice of women, I've got a tendency to go for girls who are a bit unpredictable and different. A bit hippie, a bit of a wild side. But then I kind of want them to be reliable as well in a lot of ways, which I guess is a bit of a contradiction.

Seems like you get something from people disrespecting you. Perhaps, you should explore through therapy what attracts you to this dynamic. Address your lack of self worth.

Your picker is also way off.

Sorry this was happening. No matter who you are there are a lot of flakes with online dating and Tinder seems to have more than it's fair share. All you can do is message them, set up a brief meet, decide of you want a second 'real' date.

After a time when you're ready and usually around the time you want to move it to sex have the exclusive conversation. Forget deleting/hiding dating profiles/apps, it's nonsense. Either you are dating exclusively...or not. Never act jealous or question what's on someone's phone, simply take note and proceed from there.

Keep in mind, anyone can be moved to the 'flake' basket at any time, as needed

Seems like you get something from people disrespecting you.

I've been thinking about this for a few minutes, trying to figure out if I agree or not.

I think when everything's going well with someone I like and there's no problems and no dramas, I feel happy and content with life in general. Then as soon as something goes wrong, my happiness levels plummet and that general contentedness goes. I feel the need to repair things as quickly as possible to bring me back up to that happy place and that can result in me overlooking / ignoring an obvious dealbreaker.

I think maybe the problem lies in my baseline happiness (this was talked about in a Law of Attraction class I attended earlier this week). While I wouldn't say I'm depressed as such, I feel my baseline happiness is too low and I'm too dependent on being in a good place with dating / a relationship if that makes sense?

Your picker is also way off.

Sorry, what does this mean?

After a time when you're ready and usually around the time you want to move it to sex have the exclusive conversation.

With both these girls, we first had sex on the 3rd date. I would quite happily have become exclusive at that point as, at the time, I was enjoying seeing both of them and would have been hurt at the thought of them being with anybody else (as I soon was when, in both cases, other prospects emerged!). However, I didn't initiate any talk as I felt like an exclusivity talk after 3 dates would be putting them under too much pressure too soon - interested to hear what others think on this?

Sorry, what does this mean?

I meant that you are sabotaging yourself by choosing unreliable and untrustworthy women. You said that you are attracted to a 'bad girl' type. Why? I don't get the attraction, other than having inconsistency and drama in your life. Then, you continue to pursue after they have disrespected and treated you like crap. Look into your emotional unavailability and self esteem issues.

"Something I would say as well is that in my choice of women, I've got a tendency to go for girls who are a bit unpredictable and different. A bit hippie, a bit of a wild side. But then I kind of want them to be reliable as well in a lot of ways, which I guess is a bit of a contradiction." This is not working. What is attractive about any of this?

I've been thinking about this for a few minutes, trying to figure out if I agree or not.

 

I think when everything's going well with someone I like and there's no problems and no dramas, I feel happy and content with life in general. Then as soon as something goes wrong, my happiness levels plummet and that general contentedness goes. I feel the need to repair things as quickly as possible to bring me back up to that happy place and that can result in me overlooking / ignoring an obvious dealbreaker.

 

I think maybe the problem lies in my baseline happiness (this was talked about in a Law of Attraction class I attended earlier this week). While I wouldn't say I'm depressed as such, I feel my baseline happiness is too low and I'm too dependent on being in a good place with dating / a relationship if that makes sense?

Healthy attracts healthy. i suggest you get yourself in a better place, then you will not desire these types of women. You should be happy with yourself and not expect others to complete you.

I meant that you are sabotaging yourself by choosing unreliable and untrustworthy women. You said that you are attracted to a 'bad girl' type. Why? I don't get the attraction, other than having inconsistency and drama in your life. Then, you continue to pursue after they have disrespected and treated you like crap.

I wouldn't say I deliberately choose 'bad girls', but more that I'm attracted to girls who, like me, are adventurous (ie who like hiking, wild swimming, campervanning) and sexual and maybe a bit rebellious (i.e. not against a bit of weed etc). I do believe that it's quite possible for a woman to have these characteristics but to still be a nice person and to still be fundamentally reliable in a relationship. I think I've maybe just been unlucky in that these 2 have turned out to not be reliable.

I do totally agree with you though about the disrespect and treating me like crap. It's good to hear this said explicitly by someone else as it helps to reaffirm it in my mind.

Healthy attracts healthy. i suggest you get yourself in a better place, then you will not desire these types of women. You should be happy with yourself and not expect others to complete you.

I'm very much working hard on this. I've been reading self-help books, attending Law of Attraction, meditation and yoga classes, basically doing everything I can to get myself into that happier place, regardless of my relationship / dating status.

Check out baggagereclaim.com. it helped me with my own emotional unavailability. Recognition is key.

What is "wild swimming?"

To me it sounds like you might have low self-esteem and you actually don't think that you can do better than these women who treated you so badly. I think if you felt good and secure within yourself, you would not have allowed that thing to go on for as long as you did with these women and you would not still be chasing them. They treated you crap and you put up with it and you're still messaging them now! If you had more self-respect you would not be doing that.

Also it seems like you're really fixated and even desperate to have "someone". It's OK not to have someone and to be single until you find a good person. It's better to be single than be with women that treat you badly.

Also you may be coming on too strong. You said you wanted to be exclusive after only three dates and having sex only once. Um, why? After such a short time do you even really know these women?

You need to chill out and stop fixating so much on having a girlfriend and just enjoy taking it slow and meeting different people.

I can definitely relate, and definitely you have some personal issues you need to work on, but I notice that these relationships you describe sort of fizzled when the honeymoon phase ended. Those first 2-4 months are fun, hot, exciting, and everyone is on their best behavior, getting to know one another, and then things start to get real. Real personalities come out. You can't stay up late talking or texting because you have work/school/kids. You can't run by the seat of your pants because you need to deal with laundry, errands, chores, and other responsibilities. That cute little quirk is actually extremely annoying.

I feel like part of what you want or miss the most, is getting back to that fun phase. You miss it and you want it back. Who wouldn't? But that's not sustainable long-term. Reality has to set. The problem is, once this fun phase ends, you really don't have much left. Of course these women are "a little wild," and perhaps they seek the thrill of new relationship, and when it starts to get to be too "normal" and "real," the next shiny bauble catches their attention and they move on - both of these women moved on to other men, whether flirting or dating.

Clearly your attraction to these "flighty" women might suggest self-esteem and personal issues that you should explore. These women feel normal to you. Using your abuse analogy, a lot of women who are victims of abuse grew up in an abusive home. This is their normal, and it feels wrong when dating a normal guy...something could feel very "off" about it and thus feels wrong...red flag, gut reaction wrong. There's something that has you enjoying this uncertainty and "wildness" of these women who bounce around all over the place.

I can't tell you how to not miss it, or not want it back...you actually want the fantasy back, the hot first few months...it's not real, and you need to accept it. It's not easy, but you need to be aware. Sure, if that great person reaches out to me, I can see myself giving it another try (and I have). The second time does not work much better than the first, so if you try it, if one of them wants to see you, only try it once (not at all would be better), and if you end up back with the same-old story...that's it. No more. Seriously, it would be better just to go through the pain with NC, accept it and move on.

So as I said, I struggle emotionally to let go anyone I get attached to regardless of how badly they treat me. The daft thing is that if anybody else on here posted the above stories, I'd say without a second thought “get rid. Go and find someone who deserves you”.

Can anybody relate? Any advice on how I can stop my heart from ruling my head in these situations?

Yes I can relate. In 2016 I was infatuated with a sexy b***** I hated myself. I knew she was a lying manipulative sociopath. But that didn't stop me from desiring her every waking moment. I would go long periods not contacting her. Knowing that was the right thing to do. But then I would rationalize and convince myself she wasn't that bad, and give her the benefit of a doubt one more time. And she was too happy to play along. Knowing what to do, and doing it, is sometimes a struggle for me. Ultimately I reached a point where I had had enough. Long story, but I just said enough is enough. Completely blocked her and set out to actively meet other women. She tried to contact me, and we bumped into one another. I just pretended not to know her. It seems a bit drastic, but drastic times require drastic measures. I'm in this life for me, and will do whatever is required.

I find breaking all contact and dating/meeting other women is the best way to emotionally break away from these evil sexy vixens :)

I'm very much working hard on this. I've been reading self-help books, attending Law of Attraction, meditation and yoga classes, basically doing everything I can to get myself into that happier place, regardless of my relationship / dating status.

Good. You may find it helpful to take break from the dating merry-go-round for a while until you find some passion for something beyond trying to make your relationship fantasies happen. You're not in the right place for that, and so you'll keep choosing to invest in anyone who makes the right noises to seduce you. The dating scene will still be there later, so it's not as though you'd be missing anything by taking some time to fortify your sense of self and your standards for what you consider to be a good match for you.

Recognize that most people are NOT our match. That's not cynical, it's natural odds. So the goal of dating is to screen OUT wrong matches, not play with them in the hope of turning a bad match into a good one. It sounds as though you're bypassing the screening process and diving straight into investment.

I find it helpful when meeting people to set my internal trust meter to a neutral 5 on a scale of 1 to 10. Then I observe. I allow people to show me whether I'll want to invest more trust over time, or whether I'll withdraw trust and walk away.

Advice from grandma: "The problem is not that snakes will cross your path, they will. The problem comes when you lack the self respect to avoid picking up the snake to play with it."

Check out baggagereclaim.com. it helped me with my own emotional unavailability. Recognition is key.

 

What is "wild swimming?"

Wild swimming is just open water swimming, in lakes, reservoirs, tarns etc. It's one of my hobbies - it isn't really important for the purpose of this debate though.

And thanks, I'll have a good look at that website this evening

To me it sounds like you might have low self-esteem and you actually don't think that you can do better than these women who treated you so badly. I think if you felt good and secure within yourself, you would not have allowed that thing to go on for as long as you did with these women and you would not still be chasing them. They treated you crap and you put up with it and you're still messaging them now! If you had more self-respect you would not be doing that.

 

Also it seems like you're really fixated and even desperate to have "someone". It's OK not to have someone and to be single until you find a good person. It's better to be single than be with women that treat you badly.

 

Also you may be coming on too strong. You said you wanted to be exclusive after only three dates and having sex only once. Um, why? After such a short time do you even really know these women?

 

You need to chill out and stop fixating so much on having a girlfriend and just enjoy taking it slow and meeting different people.

I think you're right on the self-esteem and that is something I'm looking to work on.

The "desperate to have 'someone'" is true in one sense and not in another. I'm renowned for being really fussy in terms of who initially attracts me. I've been speed dating and only ticked 3 women out of 17. A female friend tried to set me up with one of her friends this weekend but I was just not attracted at all when I saw her photo. But on the other hand, when I have started seeing someone who I'm attracted and somewhat attached to, I am desperate to make it work, even if, as mentioned, her behaviour makes her unsuitable.

The exclusive after 3 dates thing - I'm kind of in 2 minds about this. Just to be clear, I didn't actually say that to these women at the time, it was just my response to Wiseman whose suggestion it was to have the exclusive conversation when starting to have sex.

My thinking into why it may have been a good idea is that I'd be introducing the idea on my own terms. Whereas what actually happened in both cases is that the exclusive debate came about as a reaction to the presence of someone else (i.e. with girl 1, it was the date the following day, with girl 2, it was my supposed friend). In both cases, there was no hiding place for me in terms of my disappointment and I certainly think Girl 1 was left thinking 'he only wants to be exclusive now because he's jealous / insecure about someone else sniffing around'. Whereas introducing it on my own terms could've been more from a frame of 'he wants to be exclusive because he really likes me'.

I'm kind of unsure about this though - the counter argument to what I've said above would be 'but a quality girl wouldn't mention another date the following day on date 4 and wouldn't drunkenly kiss your friend'

I can definitely relate, and definitely you have some personal issues you need to work on, but I notice that these relationships you describe sort of fizzled when the honeymoon phase ended. Those first 2-4 months are fun, hot, exciting, and everyone is on their best behavior, getting to know one another, and then things start to get real. Real personalities come out. You can't stay up late talking or texting because you have work/school/kids. You can't run by the seat of your pants because you need to deal with laundry, errands, chores, and other responsibilities. That cute little quirk is actually extremely annoying.

 

I feel like part of what you want or miss the most, is getting back to that fun phase. You miss it and you want it back. Who wouldn't? But that's not sustainable long-term. Reality has to set. The problem is, once this fun phase ends, you really don't have much left. Of course these women are "a little wild," and perhaps they seek the thrill of new relationship, and when it starts to get to be too "normal" and "real," the next shiny bauble catches their attention and they move on - both of these women moved on to other men, whether flirting or dating.

 

Clearly your attraction to these "flighty" women might suggest self-esteem and personal issues that you should explore. These women feel normal to you. Using your abuse analogy, a lot of women who are victims of abuse grew up in an abusive home. This is their normal, and it feels wrong when dating a normal guy...something could feel very "off" about it and thus feels wrong...red flag, gut reaction wrong. There's something that has you enjoying this uncertainty and "wildness" of these women who bounce around all over the place.

 

I can't tell you how to not miss it, or not want it back...you actually want the fantasy back, the hot first few months...it's not real, and you need to accept it. It's not easy, but you need to be aware. Sure, if that great person reaches out to me, I can see myself giving it another try (and I have). The second time does not work much better than the first, so if you try it, if one of them wants to see you, only try it once (not at all would be better), and if you end up back with the same-old story...that's it. No more. Seriously, it would be better just to go through the pain with NC, accept it and move on.

Thanks. I don't have much to say other than most of this rung so true. 'The next shiny bauble' is exactly a metaphor I was thinking myself yesterday. And as I said to someone else, I agree about the self esteem and that's something I'm really looking to work on.

I'm not 100% sure if I 'enjoy the uncertainty' - I actually find the 'this could be over' phase of the uncertainty thoroughly miserable. But then I find the 'back on' phase totally exhilarating. With both these girls, before the actual ending, there was an uncertainty, followed by a 'back on'. And in both cases, the sex when we were back on I found totally magical and exhilarating.

To make an analogy, some time ago, I lost my dog near a lake. He was gone for 2 hours and I thought he'd got in and drowned. I was totally miserable and in the depths of despair. Then eventually, he came galloping round the corner. I felt totally jubilant, amazing, absolutely on top of the world. Whereas seeing him normally day to day never gives me this feeling. And that's the same feeling I got with these girls after the misery of the 'it could be over' uncertainty followed by the 'it's back on' jubilation. In some respects, I think it's normal to desire something / someone much more when you think they've gone.

I would rationalize and convince myself she wasn't that bad, and give her the benefit of a doubt one more time.

That rings so true! I've got a tendency to remember the nice / lovely things they did. Girl 1 particularly was like this. She'd often turn up with a present for me out the blue, she'd give money to homeless people in the street, she was the first person to phone when my nan died (months after we split up). Incredible difference between the 2 sides of her but I'd remember these things and use them to rationalise breaking no contact or giving her the benefit of the doubt.