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Thread: Lies

  1. #21
    Platinum Member Wiseman2's Avatar
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    Agree. If you weren't exclusive so be it, but deception is never acceptable.
    Originally Posted by yatsue
    No matter what kind of relationship we have, I should be told the truth, which is the issue at hand here.

  2. #22
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    Originally Posted by yatsue
    I was also dating and fooling around with other men while with my bf. They eventually faded out since I stopped taking interest in them, but was intent on continuing whenever it suited me again. I liked the option and less restrictive lifestyle. Monogamy is not that important to me. I can take it or leave it, which is the same mindset he has told me. I didn't care he was sleeping with others. Honesty is important though, that should be a given. We did decide it would be best to be exclusive given the circumstances, for obvious reasons. I'm unsure why this keeps being discussed. This is not what I have issue with. No matter what kind of relationship we have, I should be told the truth, which is the issue at hand here.
    Yes -you should be told the truth about his exposure to STDs. He doesn't need to share anything else about the women he has sex with and if you asked about other details he could be honest and say "I'd rather not share". He does need to tell you accurate facts about STD exposure.

    I also think that your conversation about a non-monogamy mindset might be too vague in general. People choose to have casual sex for many reasons as you know and having a "non-monogamy mindset" is one of many. His mindset might be part of the reason or the whole reason and might be based on something else entirely. The only relevance is not whether you share the same mindset about the value of monogamy but the nitty gritty of your sexual interactions - for whatever reason under the sun he wants to be able to have casual sex with you and whoever else he feels like. You feel the same. It doesn't really matter why, it doesn't matter how often he indulges or you.

    Your "relationship" is that you go on dates and have casual sex when you feel like having sex. The level of what personal information you share is likely to be very different from the kind of personal information committed couples share. But information about health and health risks should be shared just like it should be shared between anyone who knows of a risk to that person or that person's family. Nothing to do with romantic relationships really and you've both chosen a casual sexual arrangement with the rule that STD risks must be disclosed and disclosed truthfully. Just like in my workplace you're not supposed to come to work with the flu and if you unintentionally expose people to a contagious illness you're supposed to disclose. I wouldn't elevate this arrangement to anything else having to do with a "non-monogamy mindset" - too vague and too much wiggle room.

  3. #23
    Platinum Member bluecastle's Avatar
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    Since I'm familiar with more of your story than just this chapter I'm going to big picture this a bit before getting to the nuts and bolts.

    This sounds a bit like the kind of relationship you get into when you don't quite want to get into a relationship so much as use a relationship to push yourself a little bit to learn what kind of relationship you eventually want to be in—to find the "clarity" that catfeeder mentioned in her post.

    Everything stays a little loose, a little open, a little undefined, and there can be something radical, refreshing, and genuinely rewarding about it all—especially if (just, um, spit-balling here) your last serious attempt at a relationship was with a man-boy who was prone to jealousy, escaping into a cloud of video games, and leaving you feeling a bit too much like a mom/teacher than the layered, awesome, desirous woman you are.

    Prior to discovering this lie, this sounds like it had been a really great thing for you. An experiment of sorts, as well as some fun, some sparks, some flickers of a genuine connection and perhaps a new sort of connection, but all in a "safe" place where your emotional investment was more restrained. Kind of perfect for someone who (a) isn't super eager to jump fully into something that looked like the last thing she got out of; and (b) is planning on moving "far away" in the near future.

    Trouble is? I don't think he was (is?) operating in the same system as you, or that you two clearly defined this system, together. What you maybe most cherished about this dynamic—one where radical honesty took precedent over traditional fidelity—his actions show that what he appreciated was the vagueness, the wiggle room to be both "in" something and be a bit dumb, a bit drunk, and for it not to be as big a deal as it would be in a more conventional union.

    In your shoes, right now, I'd take a moment to really think about all that.

    What I see, in his lie, is someone who can't quite hang in this non-monogamous universe with grace and integrity. Very little was asked of him, after all, compared to what is asked of people in a more conventional dynamic. Just be straight, in short. He was sideways. Which puts you, right now, in a shade of the position you were in in your last relationship—where you have to "teach" a man how to be a man rather than get, out of the gates, the sort of man you want. Where you wait patiently to see if he'll evolve into the man you think he can be.

    Something to reflect on. Sometimes we find ourselves repeating the same patterns in different spheres. It all looks different on the surface—open instead of closed, etc.—but, before we know it, we're compromising similar values, forgiving similar shortcomings, and find out ourselves in a similar sort of quicksand of the sort we thought we'd left in our past. What seemed to be a new paradigm proves to be closer to the old paradigm, just with a slightly different label.

  4. #24
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    That is interesting and I think this is far more basic and the OP would be far more well-served to think of this in basic simple terms. Her sex partner lied and exposed her to STDs. Her sex partner is not a suitable sex partner when it comes to health risks because he justifies lying in order to be able to have sex with her and others as he pleases. She can think about all the reasons for the "non-monogamy mindset" and delve into all the whys and reasons why she doesn't want a committed relationship with him or anyone else right now and she can try to read his mind as to why he chose to be in a casual sexual arrangement but this is a health issue and someone who lied and risked her health. I've even heard of laws that prohibit someone from lying like this. I think in the first instance if she can distill this to the basic terms and take care of herself physically that's the most important because since she says she feels attached, indulging in the other stuff will probably lead to her justifying still hanging out with him and having sex with him.

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  6. #25
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    Originally Posted by Batya33
    That is interesting and I think this is far more basic and the OP would be far more well-served to think of this in basic simple terms. Her sex partner lied and exposed her to STDs. Her sex partner is not a suitable sex partner when it comes to health risks because he justifies lying in order to be able to have sex with her and others as he pleases. She can think about all the reasons for the "non-monogamy mindset" and delve into all the whys and reasons why she doesn't want a committed relationship with him or anyone else right now and she can try to read his mind as to why he chose to be in a casual sexual arrangement but this is a health issue and someone who lied and risked her health. I've even heard of laws that prohibit someone from lying like this. I think in the first instance if she can distill this to the basic terms and take care of herself physically that's the most important because since she says she feels attached, indulging in the other stuff will probably lead to her justifying still hanging out with him and having sex with him.
    For clarity, he isn't just a sex partner. It would be more simple if it was that way. We're in a serious, committed relationship. So I do feel attached emotionally. We discussed that we didn't care for exclusivity when making it official, hence were non-monogamous at first. I didn't state I would see others just yet, but had it in mind for the near future, since I didn't have anyone of interest at the time. We decided to be exclusive after it wasn't working out when I was lied to.

  7. #26
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    Originally Posted by bluecastle
    Since I'm familiar with more of your story than just this chapter I'm going to big picture this a bit before getting to the nuts and bolts.

    This sounds a bit like the kind of relationship you get into when you don't quite want to get into a relationship so much as use a relationship to push yourself a little bit to learn what kind of relationship you eventually want to be in—to find the "clarity" that catfeeder mentioned in her post.

    Everything stays a little loose, a little open, a little undefined, and there can be something radical, refreshing, and genuinely rewarding about it all—especially if (just, um, spit-balling here) your last serious attempt at a relationship was with a man-boy who was prone to jealousy, escaping into a cloud of video games, and leaving you feeling a bit too much like a mom/teacher than the layered, awesome, desirous woman you are.

    Prior to discovering this lie, this sounds like it had been a really great thing for you. An experiment of sorts, as well as some fun, some sparks, some flickers of a genuine connection and perhaps a new sort of connection, but all in a "safe" place where your emotional investment was more restrained. Kind of perfect for someone who (a) isn't super eager to jump fully into something that looked like the last thing she got out of; and (b) is planning on moving "far away" in the near future.

    Trouble is? I don't think he was (is?) operating in the same system as you, or that you two clearly defined this system, together. What you maybe most cherished about this dynamic—one where radical honesty took precedent over traditional fidelity—his actions show that what he appreciated was the vagueness, the wiggle room to be both "in" something and be a bit dumb, a bit drunk, and for it not to be as big a deal as it would be in a more conventional union.

    In your shoes, right now, I'd take a moment to really think about all that.

    What I see, in his lie, is someone who can't quite hang in this non-monogamous universe with grace and integrity. Very little was asked of him, after all, compared to what is asked of people in a more conventional dynamic. Just be straight, in short. He was sideways. Which puts you, right now, in a shade of the position you were in in your last relationship—where you have to "teach" a man how to be a man rather than get, out of the gates, the sort of man you want. Where you wait patiently to see if he'll evolve into the man you think he can be.

    Something to reflect on. Sometimes we find ourselves repeating the same patterns in different spheres. It all looks different on the surface—open instead of closed, etc.—but, before we know it, we're compromising similar values, forgiving similar shortcomings, and find out ourselves in a similar sort of quicksand of the sort we thought we'd left in our past. What seemed to be a new paradigm proves to be closer to the old paradigm, just with a slightly different label.
    I always appreciate your thoughts, blue. I believe you are right about how some things look familiar in comparison to my previous relationship; the teaching and jealousy in particular. I didn't want this to be a transitional, discovery relationship. I wasn't looking for commitment or a relationship, although I wasn't against it either. I was looking for that genuine connection. The kind where you see where it goes and sustains itself on the connection alone. No forcing it. I didn't want to move too fast in order to not burn out. I strived to go slow in an attempt to achieve the perfect pace in forming a relationship, to a fault. I didn't want the jealous partner I had before. I wanted someone more open and knew my interactions with others did not have an affect on my feelings about my SO. That my high sex drive did not mean I want them just for sex. Non-monogamy sounded more appealing in that regard. I tend to wear my partners out.

    I wanted an equal for a partner, where as long as we agreed on a mindset I was open minded to us both seeing others. We discussed my move and he is open to coming with me. I wanted to be sure once I committed that I could take him with me. I can't do a long distance monogamous relationship, but with a promise to be together again and non-monogamy to quench my drive, I believed we could make it. I was excited to know someone is going to come with me where I would know no one.

    Now, I am in the role I found myself in before, where I have to see if this is a repeat offense or not. It makes me sad to not know if it is, since this felt like a perfect situation for me. I didn't know it would pan out like so, but before being lied to I felt incredibly lucky to find such a person. However, not just any person. We have so much in common, go on many exciting dates we make happen on both ends, share the same weird humor, wit, demeanor, level headedness, and I feel happy in just his presence. I really do feel sad now.

  8. #27
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    Originally Posted by yatsue
    For clarity, he isn't just a sex partner. It would be more simple if it was that way. We're in a serious, committed relationship. So I do feel attached emotionally. We discussed that we didn't care for exclusivity when making it official, hence were non-monogamous at first. I didn't state I would see others just yet, but had it in mind for the near future, since I didn't have anyone of interest at the time. We decided to be exclusive after it wasn't working out when I was lied to.
    We have different definition of commitment. You are having sex and can have sex with other people. So yes you might be in a polyamorous relationship but if it is "non monogamous" then it is "non committed" -do you mean it is a polyamorous relationship? And it is that simple in this situation -he is not "committed" to your health and vitality. Rather he is committed to having sexual pleasure when he pleases without having to check in with you on such mundane aspects as horrific life threatening diseases.

    If you are keeping your options open then you are not exclusive - exclusive means you are not dating anyone and do not want the option of dating -and it means that if you change your mind in a committed, monogamous relationship you are obligated to tell the other person. Otherwise it's cheating. Right now you can go hook up with someone else and so can he or you can decide you want to look for someone else to hook up with -and you don't have to tell him and it's not cheating. Sexual health is another category entirely -like I said -that is true in business relationships too meaning you don't go to work with a highly contagious disease without disclosing it to your boss, etc.

    Emotions do make things more complicated. Emotions in my opinion need to be put aside when it comes to someone putting you in danger like this and lying about it. Are you emotionally attached to yourself? Are you committed to your health?

    I don't agree that you are in a serious committed relationship. He is not serious about your health and that's a biggie - and he is not committed to you sexually - he is committed to keeping his options open and sampling other women and having sex with other women and that is more important to him than your health and life. So it is very simple in one way. It is more complicated when you start playing around with terms like "committed" and "serious" and telling yourself stories about what your dating him means.

    I am sorry you feel sad - that can happen in many different types of relationships! I think you were trying to do something alternative/non-traditional so that you could quench your drive as you put it. Some people can pull off non-traditional alternative relationships. Others are content with sex partners, etc. Most people cannot manage it because once you exit the traditional realm (or if you want more than a sex partner) there is a lot more wiggle room about what the rules are, the boundaries, etc - and you get to use $100 words like a "non-monogamy mindset" and tell yourself that you both define it that way. On the other hand most people understand what basic "exclusivity" means and even "casual dating" and "sex buddies". Perhaps he told himself a story that since he could have sex with other women -and apparently needed to quench his drive as you did -that he could fudge on the details and then tell you "oops I thought you meant......".

    Because you know it's just so inconvenient to tell your multiple sex partners who had what STD test and when they were tested and whether you might have forgotten to use protection (and protection isn't foolproof anyway from STDs). It's inconvenient - and if your values value convenience and sexual pleasure over the boring details to lessen the risk of your other sex partners being exposed, lying is just easier - it's no fun to report back. It's moral and ethical but perhaps boring and no fun -and your partner is so exciting on dates so perhaps he's just not the type to value health over excitement and "spontaneity".

    Please value your health over the benefits you get from hanging out with this guy -especially if you're going to move as you'll have to start over with doctors and insurance, etc.

  9. #28
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    Originally Posted by Batya33
    We have different definition of commitment. You are having sex and can have sex with other people. So yes you might be in a polyamorous relationship but if it is "non monogamous" then it is "non committed" -do you mean it is a polyamorous relationship? And it is that simple in this situation -he is not "committed" to your health and vitality. Rather he is committed to having sexual pleasure when he pleases without having to check in with you on such mundane aspects as horrific life threatening diseases.

    If you are keeping your options open then you are not exclusive - exclusive means you are not dating anyone and do not want the option of dating -and it means that if you change your mind in a committed, monogamous relationship you are obligated to tell the other person. Otherwise it's cheating. Right now you can go hook up with someone else and so can he or you can decide you want to look for someone else to hook up with -and you don't have to tell him and it's not cheating. Sexual health is another category entirely -like I said -that is true in business relationships too meaning you don't go to work with a highly contagious disease without disclosing it to your boss, etc.

    Emotions do make things more complicated. Emotions in my opinion need to be put aside when it comes to someone putting you in danger like this and lying about it. Are you emotionally attached to yourself? Are you committed to your health?

    I don't agree that you are in a serious committed relationship. He is not serious about your health and that's a biggie - and he is not committed to you sexually - he is committed to keeping his options open and sampling other women and having sex with other women and that is more important to him than your health and life. So it is very simple in one way. It is more complicated when you start playing around with terms like "committed" and "serious" and telling yourself stories about what your dating him means.

    I am sorry you feel sad - that can happen in many different types of relationships! I think you were trying to do something alternative/non-traditional so that you could quench your drive as you put it. Some people can pull off non-traditional alternative relationships. Others are content with sex partners, etc. Most people cannot manage it because once you exit the traditional realm (or if you want more than a sex partner) there is a lot more wiggle room about what the rules are, the boundaries, etc - and you get to use $100 words like a "non-monogamy mindset" and tell yourself that you both define it that way. On the other hand most people understand what basic "exclusivity" means and even "casual dating" and "sex buddies". Perhaps he told himself a story that since he could have sex with other women -and apparently needed to quench his drive as you did -that he could fudge on the details and then tell you "oops I thought you meant......".

    Because you know it's just so inconvenient to tell your multiple sex partners who had what STD test and when they were tested and whether you might have forgotten to use protection (and protection isn't foolproof anyway from STDs). It's inconvenient - and if your values value convenience and sexual pleasure over the boring details to lessen the risk of your other sex partners being exposed, lying is just easier - it's no fun to report back. It's moral and ethical but perhaps boring and no fun -and your partner is so exciting on dates so perhaps he's just not the type to value health over excitement and "spontaneity".

    Please value your health over the benefits you get from hanging out with this guy -especially if you're going to move as you'll have to start over with doctors and insurance, etc.
    Perhaps different terminology is being used (I meant to use non-monogamy as a term to describe deviating from traditional monogamous relationships or used the broad definition of it as "Non-monogamy is an umbrella term for every practice or philosophy of intimate relationship that does not strictly hew to the standards of monogamy"), but this is what we agreed on during the first discussion: we will be serious towards only each other and in an official relationship as bf/gf, but being exclusive to each other didn't matter and wasn't established. So we were free to date/sleep/flirt with other people while in a relationship together. Maybe an open relationship would be a better term to call what we initially agreed upon. However, we talked and it has since changed after the lie. We then agreed to be exclusive to each other, as in only be with each other. Hence, closing the open relationship and essentially becoming a traditional monogamous one. Whether you believe he is truly serious/committed or not is up for debate, but that is the agreement at this point. He stated he has not been with anyone else since.
    Last edited by yatsue; 06-22-2019 at 09:13 AM.

  10. #29
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    I understand that now you're not going to sleep with other people or keep the option open. To me the label is irrelevant -he very recently lied to you in a very significant way that showed no regard for your health/well being and was done basically for his own sexual pleasure and fun.

    And the other issue is - he agreed to be exclusive because he was caught in a lie. Not because it's what he really had been wanting with you, seems like. He did it to avoid losing you. Doesn't seem like a positive reason. One of my relationships was like that. I told him I wouldn't have sex with him until we were exclusive and committed. And I sacrificed my standards which had been "no sex unless we're in love, exclusive, committed and have strong potential for marriage". So silly of me to settle. And he agreed but he never really fell in love with me because then it's exclusivity in exchange for sex basically.

    To me there's no real point to being exclusive with someone in the situation you described - it sounds almost like a penalty to him -now that you lied I won't date you/have sex with you unless you stop sleeping around.".

    He might say he feels serious and committed but his recent actions tell me that he's not serious about your well being or committed to you. Now he might be -after you caught him in a serious lie -kind of scared straight -feelings can change of course on a dime and maybe now he realizes he only wants to be with you. The problem is that very recently his values justified putting your health at serious risk and prioritizing his sexual pleasure/"freedom" over you.

  11. #30
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    If he hasn't been exclusive physically until now and he hasn't been using condoms, he has potentially exposed you to life-threatening STDs. You have six months or more of STD testing ahead of you.

    I wouldn't find lies that result in months of uncertainty regarding my health to be something to brush off, but it seems you are able to look past it. Are you?

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