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Financial issue - what thought /analytical process works for you?


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The situation. Had the same housecleaner for about nine years, biweekly. She brings other people with her but she's not an official "company". Been mostly satisfied and she's always been trustworthy. Payment is in cash, left for her day of. She cleans for a number of families in our apartment building including one I referred her to (and I've referred her in the past when I am able). One time years ago she couldn't come till later in the week and asked me to leave her the money in advance. I did. No problem. Cleanings are in the $75 range (plus holiday bonus) -a reasonable price here. One time years ago she asked all of us to give her a "paid vacation day" -the amount of one cleaning, mid-summer and another time she asked us to contribute to a gofundme for another business she was thinking of starting.

 

Yesterday (Easter Sunday) she texted me and asked if I could prepay for two cleanings (she is coming this week) by paypal. I didn't ask her why as I did not want to embarrass her but I did call her to make sure it was she texting me as this had never happened before. It was she. I sent the $. A few hours later she texted again, explained she'd wanted to ask for 4 cleanings prepaid but knew that might be too much but her husband who is unemployed is starting a new job this week and they now risk foreclosure if she doesn't get the $. I hesitated (not to her, my communications with her were short, professional, polite and caring in general "I am sorry you're experiencing these challenges"). I hesitated because even if she shows up this week that means she needs to stay in town and stay in business the next two months. I did not contact my friends who use her as I again do not want to embarrass her/share her dirty laundry so to speak. Our building's management knows her but they are not affiliated with her.

 

We will be "fine" if we lose the $2-300. I won't feel fine though. I'll be really upset. I'm kind of worried now and wondering if I've been taken. I have a paper trail of her agreeing that she received the money and that it's for 4 cleanings of our apartment. I was NOT heavy handed in asking her for confirmation - and she readily agreed to text me the details of our "agreement". My focus was on protecting her feelings/sense of pride and not prying into her situation. I'm fairly certain she is telling the truth.

 

So, it's done. But how do you evaluate whether to give $ in these kinds of situations - is the "how would I feel if I lost all the $"/"will losing the $ affect us financially?" Are you good at putting it out of your head once you loan/prepay in this kind of situation? I do think it's only a remote risk that we will lose any of the $ but yes it would bother me a great deal -that violated/betrayed/icky feeling. I know technically I could pursue getting the $ back if it came to that and at that point we'd have to decide whether it's worth it.

 

No, I don't loan money/gift money regularly. I regularly give to charities and I am a person who is very very selective about giving charity to individuals I only know indirectly (like on social media, etc)-I much prefer to give to organizations I know.

 

Thanks. I'll be fine. Just would like better analytical tools if there is a next time (I do not plan on doing this again with her. I believe we've done the right thing now, twice, and that is enough -I'd rather have to switch housecleaners).

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I would not prepay. As you know I have my own business. I NEVER ask people to prepay OR pay for my holidays. Why is it her clientele’s problem her husband is unemployed or she wants to start a new business? Whaaa? Her husband needs to apply to the government and put in an employment insurance claim .

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Yes. I was surprised too (that other time it literally was 24 hours before she came to clean and it was for one cleaning). As I wrote given our relationship I decided I either was going to prepay or not but I did not feel comfortable prying into her personal affairs. Knowing her I am sure she was embarrassed to ask and to share. I believe in those cases that if you choose to give the thoughtful thing to do is to give without strings attached like commenting on someone's personal affairs. And if you don't give same thing -simply "sorry we cannot manage that" and without commenting.

 

She wanted to start a new business several years ago and asked for contributions to a gofundme. I did not contribute. I also did not give her a paid holiday since back then we used her even less than twice a month given our out of town extended travels. I do give a holiday bonus.

 

I am concerned now about her stability and whether she will stay in town -but if it's true her husband is starting a new job here and they have a mortgage I assume that relocating wouldn't be the best option.

 

Thanks for your input especially as a small business owner!!

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I think it may be time to switch housecleaners.

 

In my opinion, she has behaved inappropriately by asking for a paid vacation day. She is not a full time employee and not entitled to one. If you gave it to her, it was simply out of the goodness of your heart. As far as asking for pre-payment, if you feel like helping her, you can do that, as long as you have it in writing that she will fulfill her end of the bargain.

 

Her money problems are not your problem. If she continues to ask for more money, just say, "I"m sorry. I can't advance you the money right now."

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I guess I would consider how much you trust her, like her work, and how reliable she's been. I don't like it though. Even friends and family can take advantage of someone's generosity. How would you pursue it if she didn't do the work? I think small claims court has a minimum. I also don't agree with the paid vacation and GoFundMe. I hope she comes through! If she asks you again for an advance, find someone else.

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Actually maybe the best analytical tool is gut feeling! :)

 

Oh yes and I know it. And yes I did my best to analyze it that way and I am still feeling uneasy about it.

 

Just to clarify -the vacation day and gofundme from a few years ago were part of the back story. I've now prepaid for four cleanings. One time years ago I prepaid for one, 24 hours in advance. Thank you!!

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Have her cleaning prices increased over time? Would you be open to paying a little bit more for every cleaning?

 

Prepaying is fine, but it comes with a discount when I do it. Like 4 cleanings for $275 or $75 a piece kind of thing. I would do that next time, if you want to prepay.

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How do you handle this manipulative leach in the future?

 

You get a backbone and say "no". Do not pass "go", do not collect $200.00

 

Yes. She gets the one time thing - although again I obviously now have my regrets -and then I am done. Thank you.

 

My mother's take (my mother, who is smart/savvy and just utterly kind and compassionate but not a pushover): "she seems desperate and probably is telling the truth/I'm glad it wasn't thousands/I agree it only should be a one time thing."

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Have her cleaning prices increased over time? Would you be open to paying a little bit more for every cleaning?

 

Prepaying is fine, but it comes with a discount when I do it. Like 4 cleanings for $275 or $75 a piece kind of thing. I would do that next time, if you want to prepay.

 

Oh, interesting!!! No, she has never increased her prices and from what I know about what others pay in the general area it's not typical for biweekly/weekly cleaners to increase prices - different if it's a person you employ as a daily housekeeper/nanny from what I've seen (which we do not do). I think for her it's a volume business -she has 2 others women come, they finish in 1.5 hours or so and they have a number of apartments in this (very nice) building. Crossing my fingers that she wouldn't want to ruin her reputation in this building. I am not sure where else she cleans. When I moved in I was referred to her by our leasing office and since they know her I felt comfortable. I will switch if this happens again. Thank you so much.

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UPDATE: I just now received this text from her -breaking news:

 

"Good morning. Just want [to] thank you again for all your help. I'm so blessed to have good clients that care. You're the best. May you receive it back 10 times :-)"

We responded "Thank you! We're glad to have been able to help :-)"

 

Well that makes me feel a bit better. (husband's idea was to do past tense as to not imply we're happy to do this again lol)

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Oh, interesting!!! No, she has never increased her prices and from what I know about what others pay in the general area it's not typical for biweekly/weekly cleaners to increase prices - different if it's a person you employ as a daily housekeeper/nanny from what I've seen (which we do not do). I think for her it's a volume business -she has 2 others women come, they finish in 1.5 hours or so and they have a number of apartments in this (very nice) building. Crossing my fingers that she wouldn't want to ruin her reputation in this building. I am not sure where else she cleans. When I moved in I was referred to her by our leasing office and since they know her I felt comfortable. I will switch if this happens again. Thank you so much.

 

If over 9 years she hasn’t increased her prices, I think it’s time to do so. That’s 9 years of not keeping up with other costs. That’s all I’m saying. She may be in a bind because her wages haven’t increased except in volume, which is a hard business model to live by.

 

In that case, I’d feel fine pre paying (lots of history!) and discussing if another $5-$10 per cleaning with NO paid vacations is a good agreement.

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If over 9 years she hasn’t increased her prices, I think it’s time to do so. That’s 9 years of not keeping up with other costs. That’s all I’m saying. She may be in a bind because her wages haven’t increased except in volume, which is a hard business model to live by.

 

In that case, I’d feel fine pre paying (lots of history!) and discussing if another $5-$10 per cleaning with NO paid vacations is a good agreement.

I agree , I am raising my prices in October as we have had tax increase here and the price of food has gone up in a ridiculous way the last few months. Overhead of every kind will go up. I am limited by law in client number, so increasing my daily rate is the only viable option.

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My ex had a small business as a landscaper. Shortly after my mother passing we were in a really bad financial situation ( previously we relied mostly on my income as I made more, but the financial stress caused by mother's passing meant he had to contribute more). He had had the same clients for some fifteen years at that point, who were always really happy with his work and recommended him around a lot. So, at the time we were struggling, he asked his regular clients for advanced payment a few times, and got around to working on the projects the very day after the payment, always delivering in due time. It was just those few times when we were really in a pinch. I was against, not wanting him to risk the relationship with clients whom his livelihood has been dependant upon for over a decade, but apparently they though he was reliable and trustworthy and were glad to help, especially as it was the first time and his prices have always been more than reasonable to boot.

 

I'm a little put off by her having asked payed vacation days, I'd never heard of that with occasional cleaning service. I guess it's one of those things some people chance their luck asking thinking there's no harm trying, especially if they otherwise have a good rep?

 

If she does the four cleanings in due time without asking more favors, I'd chalk it down to them simply needing an investment in hubs business, a one time thing. But I too would get someone else if this wasn't the last time she asks.

 

The go fund me I think was a reasonable request, if for example she had to register a business to keep working. If her clients wanted her continued services, I don't think a small contribution to ensure she stays in the business (if I understand correctly that's what she was trying to do) is a terrible idea.

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If over 9 years she hasn’t increased her prices, I think it’s time to do so. That’s 9 years of not keeping up with other costs. That’s all I’m saying. She may be in a bind because her wages haven’t increased except in volume, which is a hard business model to live by.

 

In that case, I’d feel fine pre paying (lots of history!) and discussing if another $5-$10 per cleaning with NO paid vacations is a good agreement.

 

Yes -there are no paid vacations. She asked all of us for one once years ago. I think I wrote that I declined but now I remember I gave her a partial bonus that year at the time of her request

and then another holiday bonus. I'll leave it to her whether she chooses to increase prices. Were she to do so her prices would be slightly higher than the going rate. Maybe that's why she has not. Not my concern. She seems to be in a bind because of what she wrote to me yesterday. If it continues to happen I won't prepay and I won't suggest paying her more -that's her business decision to make. She's never asked for more.

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Yes -there are no paid vacations. She asked all of us for one once years ago. I think I wrote that I declined but now I remember I gave her a partial bonus that year at the time of her request

and then another holiday bonus. I'll leave it to her whether she chooses to increase prices. Were she to do so her prices would be slightly higher than the going rate. Maybe that's why she has not. Not my concern. She seems to be in a bind because of what she wrote to me yesterday. If it continues to happen I won't prepay and I won't suggest paying her more -that's her business decision to make. She's never asked for more.

 

That’s fair, but I’m just pointing out her bind may be because she hasn’t had a pay raise in 9 years and she’s scared to ask for a raise. Again, not your problem, but making it your problem could help her and be very compassionate.

 

Saying it’s not your problem and then threatening to run her off makes me sad. She’s been with you for 9 years (I think, right?) doesn’t she deserve a little bit more than one weird request leading to her termination?

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I'd think of all of it-- the paid "vacation" day, gofundme contribution, and pay advances-- as transactional. She's either worth it or she isn't. Having someone you trust with your key to enter your home regularly while you're not around is almost worth it by itself, but again...almost. What would bug me honestly isn't the the "vacation day" or pay advance themselves, but that I just wanna pay someone and have my house cleaned, not to be included in any of this extra financial drama. Really, I'd take the option of paying someone more than it'd cost me helping another cleaner out if I could bank on not getting odd texts during my holiday weekends. But again, you're talking a 9+ year arrangement with someone you trust and who, I'm at least assuming given it wasn't suggested otherwise, hasn't taken advantage by getting complacent in her work ethic. If I felt the trust and her service was worth it, I'd probably provide the advance and not think twice of it.

 

What I will say is that asking for pay in advance really isn't all that audacious. In fact, if this is a bi-weekly, scheduled and effectively indefinite arrangement, I'm surprised she hasn't already established it. I'm not saying you (Batya) have consciously made some evil decision not to, but that I'm just surprised she hasn't taken it upon herself to bring it up yet. My work is very different from hers in terms of services, but very similar in that you build a work week block-by-block. I'm an interpreter who contracts predominantly with universities and will get a two-hour class here, another one there, a 90-minute one Tuesdays and Thursdays, and then I have to build around those classes with different universities.

 

If a school or institution wants a one-time service, I'll include a cancellation window of >48 hours from the assignment and leave it at that as I can accept work for that time slot any week before or after that job. But, while I don't ask for a pay advance, if they want me to regularly cut out a specific time window of my availability to guarantee weekly or bi-weekly services, 1) the pay is guaranteed whether the professor / student / company cancels that week or not, and 2) should that entire job be cancelled (typically due to a student dropping the class), I get paid the next two weeks for that time still. My service for someone is essentially a denial of service to someone else who might otherwise pay me for ongoing work. There's no way I'd accept compensation per diem and after the fact while giving someone the benefit of sacrificing my availability and turning down other work for any extended amount of time.

 

Even the "vacation day" really isn't all that bad. No, she's not your employee, but she is your cleaner. You could go to a cleaning company who does offer its employees vacation / paid sick days and risk a complete rotation of strangers entering your home every other week, or you can give this lady the benefit of having an egregious one day's assurance of pay for that entire year should she be sick that day or should an extra obligation befall upon her. I think some people have an odd perception of contract or otherwise non-employed but regular work. It's not that you don't get benefits. It's that you negotiate 1 on 1 for them. If she feels the value of her work includes a paid personal day, she can and should negotiate for it. If Batya or any other client doesn't agree, then they should refuse.

 

That's more a rambling than anything more in response to the general sentiment some may have, not you personally. It sounds like you value this woman and have been more than generous and accommodating with what are frankly her personal problems. While obviously four cleanings (essentially two months?) in advance is excessive as a principle or recurrence, if I were her and I was expected to dedicate that availability to you for the entire year, I'd probably be asking for payments one cleaning in advance to secure my time. So in your shoes, once she's caught up with these cleanings, that's probably what I'd offer and be done with entertaining any other requests for unarranged compensation. Obviously that's entirely up to you, whether you feel she should be the one to ask for it, or whether you justifiably don't consider her services worth it.

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That’s fair, but I’m just pointing out her bind may be because she hasn’t had a pay raise in 9 years and she’s scared to ask for a raise. Again, not your problem, but making it your problem could help her and be very compassionate.

 

Saying it’s not your problem and then threatening to run her off makes me sad. She’s been with you for 9 years (I think, right?) doesn’t she deserve a little bit more than one weird request leading to her termination?

 

I am not threatening in the least. If she asks for prepayment again I am going to say no. She hasn't been just with me. She cleans a lot of units in this building and I am not interested in suggesting to her how she runs her business especially since we all pay more than the going rate. If she asks again and seems unhappy if I say no then I believe I will find another cleaner but I would not "out" her to the building. One time when I was going to switch (because her employees who she had then were not doing a thorough job) my office here asked me why and I didn't share (they are unaffiliated but I think they refer her to others).

 

In my experience where I live housecleaners who come biweekly or weekly do not raise their rates - I am not sure why - I am not in the business. I have increased my holiday bonus in certain years depending on a variety of factors.

 

If she is scared to ask for a raise I don't see that as my issue - I have done nothing to make her fearful of asking for anything - in fact to the contrary, apparently, based on the text I posted. I see this as a business relationship. In a business relationship it typically -with rare exception -is up to the person who wants a raise to ask for one and to balance the fear of asking for one against the benefits of asking. I've had to make that analysis myself, I get it. If she worked for me as a full time employee or cared for my child I might see the relationship differently because then it's more of a hybrid business/part of the family. She/her staff come twice a month. If she asked for a raise I'd probably shop around at that point since she is paid more than the going rate.

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I'd think of all of it-- the paid "vacation" day, gofundme contribution, and pay advances-- as transactional. She's either worth it or she isn't. Having someone you trust with your key to enter your home regularly while you're not around is almost worth it by itself, but again...almost. What would bug me honestly isn't the the "vacation day" or pay advance themselves, but that I just wanna pay someone and have my house cleaned, not to be included in any of this extra financial drama. Really, I'd take the option of paying someone more than it'd cost me helping another cleaner out if I could bank on not getting odd texts during my holiday weekends. But again, you're talking a 9+ year arrangement with someone you trust and who, I'm at least assuming given it wasn't suggested otherwise, hasn't taken advantage by getting complacent in her work ethic. If I felt the trust and her service was worth it, I'd probably provide the advance and not think twice of it.

 

What I will say is that asking for pay in advance really isn't all that audacious. In fact, if this is a bi-weekly, scheduled and effectively indefinite arrangement, I'm surprised she hasn't already established it. I'm not saying you (Batya) have consciously made some evil decision not to, but that I'm just surprised she hasn't taken it upon herself to bring it up yet. My work is very different from hers in terms of services, but very similar in that you build a work week block-by-block. I'm an interpreter who contracts predominantly with universities and will get a two-hour class here, another one there, a 90-minute one Tuesdays and Thursdays, and then I have to build around those classes with different universities.

 

If a school or institution wants a one-time service, I'll include a cancellation window of >48 hours from the assignment and leave it at that as I can accept work for that time slot any week before or after that job. But, while I don't ask for a pay advance, if they want me to regularly cut out a specific time window of my availability to guarantee weekly or bi-weekly services, 1) the pay is guaranteed whether the professor / student / company cancels that week or not, and 2) should that entire job be cancelled (typically due to a student dropping the class), I get paid the next two weeks for that time still. My service for someone is essentially a denial of service to someone else who might otherwise pay me for ongoing work. There's no way I'd accept compensation per diem and after the fact while giving someone the benefit of sacrificing my availability and turning down other work for any extended amount of time.

 

Even the "vacation day" really isn't all that bad. No, she's not your employee, but she is your cleaner. You could go to a cleaning company who does offer its employees vacation / paid sick days and risk a complete rotation of strangers entering your home every other week, or you can give this lady the benefit of having an egregious one day's assurance of pay for that entire year should she be sick that day or should an extra obligation befall upon her. I think some people have an odd perception of contract or otherwise non-employed but regular work. It's not that you don't get benefits. It's that you negotiate 1 on 1 for them. If she feels the value of her work includes a paid personal day, she can and should negotiate for it. If Batya or any other client doesn't agree, then they should refuse.

 

That's more a rambling than anything more in response to the general sentiment some may have, not you personally. It sounds like you value this woman and have been more than generous and accommodating with what are frankly her personal problems. While obviously four cleanings (essentially two months?) in advance is excessive as a principle or recurrence, if I were her and I was expected to dedicate that availability to you for the entire year, I'd probably be asking for payments one cleaning in advance to secure my time. So in your shoes, once she's caught up with these cleanings, that's probably what I'd offer and be done with entertaining any other requests for unarranged compensation. Obviously that's entirely up to you, whether you feel she should be the one to ask for it, or whether you justifiably don't consider her services worth it.

 

Thanks so much! This is very informative and thoughtful!! I never had a cleaner until I had a child -so in my other city for the 15 years I lived on my own I didn't. We do have strangers coming -she changes employees pretty regularly. Trust is a huge plus here!! In my experience with housecleaners they are paid day of -the $ is left for them if they come in when people are not home. I had a boyfriend for 7 years in my former city who had a biweekly housecleaner and that is how he did it and how it apparently was "done". So I wasn't at all surprised she wanted it this way too. At first I would give her checks. Then she wanted cash so we did that.

 

Thanks so much again! I am going to reread how you would approach it. It makes sense to me and needs a rereading.

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And she should definitely be asking for a rate increase. A LOT of my peers unfortunately don't, and it doesn't surprise me your lady hasn't, but if year over year her rates aren't keeping up with inflation, she's effectively being paid less. My rates increase with inflation every year, rounded up.

 

I think it puts her character-wise in a much better light if she has in fact been devaluing her time over these last 9 years. It tells that while she may be a great cleaner, she's probably crappy business woman despite maintaining and increasing her clientele, and were it that she better asserted the value of her labor for what's been nearly a decade (not with just you, but whoever else aggregated), she may not be risking foreclosure at all.

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The issue here is that you don't know when the personal financial issues will clear. That's why you feel very little control over the situation and whether this situation will happen again. I think your troubles are with the forecasting and not being able to manage her finances which seem to be a problem. I'd find it difficult not to work with her and I think it's heavy-handed not working together. That's just me. I would loan the money but be certain that you won't be able to do it again (in your mind, mark it as a case by case basis). It's best not to be emotionally involved in her financial matters - less to do with prying and more to do with distancing yourself and remaining an employer, not a friend. $300 is not much to start and reasonable for an older business relationship. I'd be more inclined to ask questions if it's $500 or more considering the nature of the work.

 

Regarding the process, I'd have it in writing with both your signatures on a simple handwritten note on paper and detail the amount of work equating to the amount of money paid in advance and date the specific dates of work on the note. Legally this works as a promissory note (a contract) and it is legally binding. She owes you work for the money paid. You can add in there that for every hour not worked, that money is owed back to you. Make an extra copy for her. You have a copy. She has a copy. I'd then put it in a calendar somewhere or on my phone and send her a reminder if she needs reminders 24-48 (1-2 days before) to come over to clean. Apart from that I don't see any other issues with the arrangement.

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I think it's very ballsy of her to ask you for a vacation day, a contribution to a gofundme, and an advance. Very ballsy indeed.

 

If she needs to increase the rate for her services, then that's on her, not you.

 

If she needs money because her husband is unemployed, again, on her. She can work 2 jobs. Or he can find one (waiting tables, for all I care).

 

This isn't about being heartless, but about not getting taken advantage of.

 

I'd have her work out the rest of the time for what she owes you, and then politely move on from her.

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I think it's very ballsy of her to ask you for a vacation day, a contribution to a gofundme, and an advance. Very ballsy indeed.

 

If she needs to increase the rate for her services, then that's on her, not you.

 

If she needs money because her husband is unemployed, again, on her. She can work 2 jobs. Or he can find one (waiting tables, for all I care).

 

This isn't about being heartless, but about not getting taken advantage of.

 

I'd have her work out the rest of the time for what she owes you, and then politely move on from her.

 

THank you LH Girl. My husband, who agreed with our decision - on the same page- also found it nervy.

 

I think her husband starts his new job this week but bills were due. Something like that. I posted the update a few pages up as far as her additional text to me today with heartfelt thanks.

 

It is valuable to have someone trustworthy, who can work with our schedule (not unusual schedule but we're specific about timing during the day) and who has a reputation in the building. It's a balance. We'll see. Like I wrote I'm not going to ask others if a similar request was made to protect her privacy/dignity and i wouldn't be surprised if others choose to share it with me. Nothing yet.

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