I like her a lot...

A quick bit of background... I was married for 10yrs and separated from my wife about 18months ago. A year after separation I felt ready to get 'out there' again and so looked into popular dating apps. I had good results from the outset, have met a number of lovely women for various dates. However, that real relationship I'm looking for, even when there's been serious chemistry, has proven elusive. Over the six month period, I'd say there have been three women who I've been very interested in. I was dating one for 3mths before she ended that without any reason given, I had a long distance thing going with another for two months that ended up fizzling out and, most recently, there's been Kate who is the purpose of this post. At all times, I've had other women I've been talking to and/or dating in the background but for whatever reason, I've not found any real connection with them.

Now, the advice I'm after with Kate is to basically try to establish whether she's likely gone or if I can somehow turn this around. First and foremost (if it isn't clear already) - I genuinely like her a lot.

We matched on Tinder back in January and exchanged a handful of messages (I had the long distance thing going on during this time). Kate then went quiet for weeks but I wasn't really fussed and figured it was one of many message exchanges that had just fizzled to nothing. Cue the end of the long distance thing... suddenly out of the blue, Kate reaches out to me again.

We chat, I get her number and we arrange to meet up for drinks. Now, after 15 or so previous dates, I've learned to go in with zero expectations as I find it helps keep me relaxed and I can just be myself. The date was going well (good not great), we talked a lot, we flirted a fair bit and we drank lots too. She caught herself admitting that she never thought she'd open up quite as much on a first date as she was doing. The conversation wasn't superficial, it was engaging and there was no guardedness. One minute we'd be recalling drunken adventures and the next she'd be telling me about very personal childhood memories. I'm not going to lie, I found it extremely attractive that she felt comfortable opening up with me like that.

I missed my last train home and made mention of the fact I'd have to grab an Uber but that was fine so we moved to a new bar. Now, hand on heart I never expected or even suggested it but at about midnight, she invites me back to hers. We were both pretty drunk, I agreed and so back we went. Needless to say, things escalated pretty quickly once we reached the comfort of her sofa and I ended up staying the night. Now, I have no shame in admitting that given the amount of alcohol we drank, the sex itself wasn't fantastic but she seemed to enjoy herself and the neighbours probably got as much sleep as we did let's put it that way. In the morning, she was extremely affectionate and cuddled up with me in an almost couple-like level of intimacy which I loved. We had sex again before she had to go to work, we got up, I got dressed kissed her goodbye and said I'd text her later as I left her flat.

We messaged back and forth, I suggested a second date after a day or two but she was busy... no alternative date suggested. First mini-alarm starts going off in my mind. We continue to chat back and forth for a few more days and then all of a sudden she vanishes for about 5 days. I know she's read my message and has been online (the dreaded curse of whatsapp 'last seen' status). Now, I've been here before so I know what it indicates... but I want to keep her in my life so I send her a follow up text asking if she wants to see where things go BUT if not I'd still like to stay friends as I think she's awesome.

She replies to this saying that she appreciates my text, that she feels really awful that she ignored me, apologises and admits that she's putting herself first in every aspect of her life just now. I brush it off as though I'm not fussed. I know she's been extremely busy with work and buying a flat so I have deliberately not chased her and given her space. She's reached out a number of times since but the tone is now friendly rather than flirty and I kind of feel I may have shot myself in the foot with the whole 'let's be friends' approach. At the time, I thought I could do it but after a couple of weeks, I can't get her out of my head and am kicking myself that I could well have blown it with her. I guess in hindsight, I'd rather have just been rejected and moved on than gone down the route of trying to stay friends.

If there's a chance I could turn this round, I would absolutely rather go down that route first but it would be great to get some other people's unclouded opinions as to how likely that might be given the circumstances. Sorry for rambling and I appreciate any insights on this.

Try to ride it out. Make sure you're not talking about your wife/separation etc too much. Just ask her out on dates and be romantic don't rush in to bed too fast on every date. Try to show her you're interested in more.

Thanks. It's bloody hard though isn't it!

I never speak about my previous relationship (or my kids) on any dates unless the conversation steers that way naturally. I'm always up front that I have an ex with kids though as it's obviously a dealbreaker for some women, particularly those who are early 30s/don't have kids themselves already. Kate is 30, previously married but no kids whereas I'm 35 and have two. I never rush to jump into bed with any of the women I've seen since separating. In fact, it only reached that stage once previously with the woman I was dating for 3mths and that was on dates 5 and 6. I've never seen the appeal of one night stands and kinda hoped that it was more than a hook-up with Kate given we had a good connection and actually continued chatting after that initial first date.

I'm not making the mistake of seeming like I'm chasing either. If she doesn't reply to a text for days, I leave it. It makes it difficult to trying to get that next date set up but I know neediness is the biggest interest killer around. I have another couple of women I'm chatting to now to help avoid that whole 'focused on one' vibe that females have a sixth sense for and, given how attractive she is, she won't be short of guys chasing her for attention, so I'm deliberately avoiding being thrown into that category too.

She's dropped into previous messages about how her best friend is into watching sports and how 'he' took her to see a game, or that 'he' took her out for her surprise birthday meal this week... I'm experienced enough about the tests that women use that I'm interpreting this as a means of seeing how I react and whether I'm the jealous type. If it is a test, then I'm taking that as a good sign and I handled it accordingly - with lots of enthusiasm through metaphorical gritted teeth!

I just hate how difficult this stuff is. I've been out of the game for a looooooooooong time!

Sounds to me like she's found someone else she is more interested in, or possibly that he was already in the picture.

She's on Tinder. I'm sure you weren't her only option if she is as you say.

Sorry but you are going uphill on this one.

Keep busy meeting other women but don't write her off completely. Turning this around is more up to her than you. She has shown compassion for you by replying to your message of friendship and has messaged you in-between so you are on her mind whish is good but you need to be a little aloof and less friend like.

Why don't you let it go for a few weeks and then give her a call. I know I know you are thinking "You want me to actually talk on the phone with my voice" and yes that is exactly what I want you to do instead of messaging on some platform. Be different and call when you are pretty sure she would be free to talk. Then keep it light and ask how the real estate thing is going and how she has been doing. Gauge her response and if she implies she has been super busy then suggest you take her out for a nice dinner so she can relax and have a good time.

With these sorts of things you have zero to lose by trying but how you go about it can make or break your chances.

Lost

As a woman, if a guy I was interested in asked me out and I was busy, I would definitely give him an alternate date. It doesn't matter what signals you thought you received that would make this something longer than one and done. She's just not that interested. You can't be everyone's cup of tea and you likely did nothing wrong. She was maybe just filling some time because nothing else was going on for the moment.

Hold out for the woman who makes it crystal clear she's wanting to get to know you past one meet up.

Thanks for all of the feedback. Yeah, I'd gathered this was going to be a difficult one made harder by the fact it was never really clear what she wanted from the outset.

The lack of alternative date given was a red flag I must admit but it was disguised slightly differently than the usual, 'Sorry, I'm busy,' line in that, she said she was away for the weekend and that Friday evening she was out with a girlfriend but would give me a shout if that fell through. Maybe it was optimism on my part but I figured she could have spared herself the trouble of the, 'If plans change,' line and just said she was busy full stop. As an aside, she also commented on my plans to hire a campervan in the near future and said that she'd 100% be there for that... even though I never explicitly invited her, I was just telling her about it. Perhaps she just likes the attention, I don't know. Like I said, she's very attractive so it's not like she'd be short of it elsewhere tbh.

I have no trouble picking up the phone and calling, Lost so I'll probably do that in a couple of weeks. I guess I'll get an answer either way and know to stop wasting my energy over-thinking it all.

The lack of alternative date given was a red flag

Even if she had given an alternative date it still does not mean much. I just had a similar thing happen to me. In my case she cancelled the 1st date and offered to meet next weekend but that never happened. She had met some one else. Usually the 1st date getting cancelled is not a good sign.

May I ask how old you and she are?

I'd say its time to man up with large romantic gesture. I am a bit concerned that the line you gave about being friends might have confused her, possibly giving her the impression you are not that into her. Sometimes you need to be a bit more bold than asking to see her or asking for a date. I suggest at the very least, sending her some flowers, don't be shy in the message, "can't stop thinking about you", send them to her work if that is possible and would not be problematic ( as in she takes transit or doesn't work in an office or store where she would have a vase etc). Even better if you find some concert or theater event happening say about a month from now send those too and say "let's do this" it can have a much bigger impact than "would you like to do this" and will set you apart from all the other guys she is meeting on tinder.

Having said all that, I thought Tinder was considered more of a hook up site and it seems that is just what you got, so maybe she is not looking for something more serious. But if you really like her, invest a few bucks and show some alpha muscle, at least you will know one way or the other.

Even if she had given an alternative date it still does not mean much. I just had a similar thing happen to me. In my case she cancelled the 1st date and offered to meet next weekend but that never happened. She had met some one else. Usually the 1st date getting cancelled is not a good sign.

 

May I ask how old you and she are?

That sucks. Maybe it was just bad timing? I’m in a similar situation with another woman actually. She cancelled plans for the first date 3hrs beforehand but the excuse she had was pretty understandable and she was very keen to reschedule. We’ll just have to see how that pans out.

It’s probably safe to assume that offering an alternative isn’t always a given that she’s interested... but not offering one is a fairly conclusive indicator that the interest level is low.

Kate’s 30 and I’m 35.

I'd say its time to man up with large romantic gesture. I am a bit concerned that the line you gave about being friends might have confused her, possibly giving her the impression you are not that into her. Sometimes you need to be a bit more bold than asking to see her or asking for a date. I suggest at the very least, sending her some flowers, don't be shy in the message, "can't stop thinking about you", send them to her work if that is possible and would not be problematic ( as in she takes transit or doesn't work in an office or store where she would have a vase etc). Even better if you find some concert or theater event happening say about a month from now send those too and say "let's do this" it can have a much bigger impact than "would you like to do this" and will set you apart from all the other guys she is meeting on tinder.

 

Having said all that, I thought Tinder was considered more of a hook up site and it seems that is just what you got, so maybe she is not looking for something more serious. But if you really like her, invest a few bucks and show some alpha muscle, at least you will know one way or the other.

Would it not be considered a bit too early for a romantic gesture like that? I mean, I’m all for the premise of being driven to go after what I want, and obviously my attraction level for her is very high, but we’ve only met the once and the last thing I want to do is freak her out, especially given there are plenty of weirdos out there on Tinder.

There’s also the chasing aspect. Women’s interest levels fall if they feel you’re pursuing too hard - it’s too easy and the challenge is gone. I think that’s partly my reason for suggesting to her about being friends. Interest levels are supposedly piqued if she’s unclear of your feelings. Would it not require higher interest levels from her in order to pull off a gesture like that?

Like I said, I’m rusty when it comes to this early stage stuff having been married for so long - the dating world has changed A LOT since I was last single!

Also, Tinder has a bad rep but it’s used for a lot more than hook-ups these days (I’ve done my research! ). Some people even use it as a ‘friend finder’ similar to other social media platforms... I have no idea why.

There's no confusion on this. She knows he's interested in her. She is possibly taking him up on the friendship part, though...whether she's friendzoning or whether she's happy to take a step backwards and be sure there is genuine interest, not just sex, remains to be seen. She fell into bed with him pretty fast. It's really not a good sign that there have not been any dates or her fishing, hinting, or pushing for one. At the same time, she's not ignoring him. I am leaning in the notsomuch interested category, but interested enough, this could take off with a little persistence...keep the same attitude now, though...keep exploring other women/dates, and don't keep your eggs in one basket. By description, I don't feel like this is a total bust.

Flowers -- if she's interested, and if she's like me, these would be very welcomed and possibly tilt the guy in the more serious category. If not so interested in him or friendzoning, they would include some dread...that's when you have to have "the talk" about "just friends." Very uncomfortable. Some people won't even have this discussion. They'll simply ghost. I hesitate about the flowers, though. There are so many posters here at ENA that will say it's too soon and too much. I guess in my generation it was romantic gesture, not a creepy gesture. I would think asking her out on a date instead of hinting circles around "getting together sometime" would be the next step.

Wishing the best, OP. She sounds fantastic.

OP, are you actually legally divorced?

She may be ashamed that she got drunk and had you spend the night on the first meetup. I would be chagrined if I did.

And a big NO to the flowers sent to her work idea! Way too much.

Get out there a bit more and I'll think you'll look back on this for what it is. Which is, well, dating.

You're new to this, as you've noted more than once, and still in a state of heightened emotions coming out of a marriage. I can't help but feel that you're still just getting your sea legs back, and are getting rocked around in waves that, with a touch more experience, will soon feel like ripples.

The title of your post, for starters. I might sound cynical to some—though rest-assured I self-identify as a nuclear romantic—but I just want to point out that one cannot "like a lot" someone whom he does not know at all. And after one date, regardless of what occurred, of what was shared and touched, we do not know a person.

What you "liked a lot" was the idea she represented, an idea you liked a lot even before meeting her—that being the "real relationship" you're imagining in your head, swiping with the hopes of actualizing. A night of good chats and boozy sex made that idea less abstract, more real. For what proved to be a very brief moment in time.

Which, again, is dating.

Everyone handles the emotional ups and downs of it differently. Some will say don't rush into the sack too quickly, because it scrambles important radars. True, for many. Speaking for myself—someone who has had my share of first/second date sex, my share of waiting for physical intimacy, and don't see a gigantic difference—I kind of operate from the foundation that I really know nothing until a month in. I don't really know who they are, they don't know who I am, I don't really know what I feel, and so on. Whatever I do feel is generated as much from my own mind as it is from the connection, in short.

Doesn't mean I'm immune to being excited about a person, but just that it's tempered for a bit so you're not making the mistake of dating ideas instead of people. So, in your shoes, I'd be thinking along very different lines in this situation. I'd be "liking" her " a lot less" because since the date her behavior has been at odds with your hopes, your idea, your intentions in dating. Her enthusiasm is lukewarm, her attitude wishy-washy.

Reward that with flowers and grand romantic gestures? Um, no. That's trying to will someone into your idea, to take control of a narrative rather than letting a story run its organic course.

Doesn't mean cut the chord, but doesn't mean throw out ten more chords hoping she grabs on. Let it simmer. Swipe away. Maybe something comes from it, maybe not. Win win either way. Dating.

Such varying opinions! Dating is as clear as mud, eh?

I take on board everything that’s been said and really appreciate everyone’s advice.

Honestly, I don’t think she cares that I’m not legally divorced, only separated. She knew it ahead of time and still met up with me so I don’t think it was a major issue.

I’m definitely not feeling the grand romantic gesture idea. In an ideal world, perfect... but the reality of the situation probably more closely mirrors bluecastle’s take on it.

I’m not writing it off completely but there’s no denying her interest levels are low just now - certainly much lower than mine. I think taking time away from it and seeing where things go with other women is the best course of action, and maybe reaching out to her to see if she wants to get together in a few weeks is a good shout if she doesn’t reach out again beforehand.

Well, that’s fairly conclusive - I just found a profile on another dating app I use regularly so it’s something she’s literally set up in the last 24hrs. Onwards and upwards. 😔 Thanks for all the help though guys.

What, exactly, is conclusive here? What, exactly, does her being on another app tell you that you didn't know?

Is it that she had not fully committed to being exclusive with you?

Between the lines of you writing about your interest and affection for her you've referenced being on the apps, talking to others. If you can do that, while being interested in someone, is it not possible that someone else of the opposite sex can do the same?

I say this not to poke you when you're feeling down, but just to offer some advice about dating and the apps, which is to let what you experience in reality—be it a fun, hot night, a little thaw after—be the thing that guides your feelings, the story you're writing, not what you see on the apps. That's pure noise, a hall of funhouse mirrors of noise that, if indulged in the wrong way, will magnify insecurity and zap moxie. No need for that.

She's a single 30 year old woman named Kate. She's on some apps, casting lines, casually fishing, not sure what she wants to eat for dinner—just like you, just like a million others. Whether she "literally" signed up yesterday or you literally stumbled across her on a new platform today has absolutely nothing to do with you, what you two shared, or where that will go, whether it's everywhere or nowhere or some place in between.

What, exactly, is conclusive here? What, exactly, does her being on another app tell you that you didn't know?

 

Is it that she had not fully committed to being exclusive with you?

 

Between the lines of you writing about your interest and affection for her you've referenced being on the apps, talking to others. If you can do that, while being interested in someone, is it not possible that someone else of the opposite sex can do the same?

 

I say this not to poke you when you're feeling down, but just to offer some advice about dating and the apps, which is to let what you experience in reality—be it a fun, hot night, a little thaw after—be the thing that guides your feelings, the story you're writing, not what you see on the apps. That's pure noise, a hall of funhouse mirrors of noise that, if indulged in the wrong way, will magnify insecurity and zap moxie. No need for that.

 

She's a single 30 year old woman named Kate. She's on some apps, casting lines, casually fishing, not sure what she wants to eat for dinner—just like you, just like a million others. Whether she "literally" signed up yesterday or you literally stumbled across her on a new platform today has absolutely nothing to do with you, what you two shared, or where that will go, whether it's everywhere or nowhere or some place in between.

A lot of sense in there. Thanks.

The curse of the dating app era - connections are easier to find than they ever used to be... but by that very notion, harder to pursue as there’s always the potential for the ‘perfect match’ to be just one more swipe away for either/both parties.

You might want to try meet up.com as a little less stressful way of dating. Search local singles groups in your age range in your area. You can gradually get to know women in the group who show up regularly.

A lot of sense in there. Thanks.

 

The curse of the dating app era - connections are easier to find than they ever used to be... but by that very notion, harder to pursue as there’s always the potential for the ‘perfect match’ to be just one more swipe away for either/both parties.

For sure.

I'd put it a touch differently, though. What the apps do, not unlike social media apps, is provide an illusion of connection before even meeting someone. Very intoxicating—a lovely drug, but one that, much like booze, you need to build a certain tolerance to in order to enjoy responsibly. And, much like booze, everyone has a different level of tolerance.

You get a few photos, a list of hobbies, some sparkly back-and-forth—and, even before meeting up, the head can start telling some lofty tales, especially if the heart is hungry, as yours seems to be. So if the date goes remotely well—or, in your case, quite well and randily—those lofty tales can seem almost set in stone. The feet can leave the ground pretty quickly. Hunger sated. You're like a teenager sipping his first beer—drunk after three sips.

Back in the Paleozoic—I mean, pre-app—era, you'd see someone at a party or a bar and a little bell of intrigue went off. They're attractive, cool-seeming, around your age—and that, basically, was that. You're not imagining them as a potential life parter, not seeing the two of you, say, helicopter skiing in the Alps and talking literature over sushi, because you have no idea who they are, whether they even like skiing or sushi, whether or not they're illiterate. No, you're intrigued enough to say hello, gradually see where it goes from there.

I went back on the apps a little less than a year ago, following a 6 month dating freeze to process a breakup. There was an adjustment period, no question, as some of those first encounters felt weighty. Be it an uninspired chat or a three day fling, I was quick to ascribe meaning, so that the uninspired chat could mean I'd be alone forever and the three day fling meant I'd found eternal bliss. My heart was hungry, my stomach empty—a few sips and I was loopy.

Experience changed my outlook—hardened me, you could say, though in productive ways that allowed me to be less hungry but more genuinely open. Yeah, big picture, I was swiping and meeting in hopes of finding a romantic partner on the grand stage. But as the memory of my last relationship faded, and as I genuinely came to love being alone again, which is to say as I remembered I could feed my own heart, I was less pressed to answer that question. I wasn't so hungry.

So if a fling ended with someone saying they're not sure where they're at, or getting vague about future plans—well, whatever. Similarly if a date was kind of boring—also whatever. Just a few drinks, literally and metaphorically. I could handle it. Clear eyes, even with some booze in the system. Tolerance.

Per Andrina, maybe the MeetUp thing could be interesting. I have no idea what that is, but see it mentioned on here a lot. Me, I found it all just got less stressful after weathering a few highs and lows. It allowed me to disconnect that big "real relationship" story from whomever I swiped on, met up with, and, hey, maybe slept with. I came to treat the apps no differently from seeing someone across a crowded room: no idea where it will go, no specific story in mind. And that's when it really got fun, because it was, as mentioned earlier, just dating, not void-filling, not using strangers as projection screens for stories in my head and heart.

Not that you need these words from me. You've got a good head, it's clear, and it sounds like you're not lacking in action. Exhale. Enjoy it. Some things stick more than others. The really sticky ones—well, you know they're real because you don't have to think too much to fill in the gaps. You're just in it, whatever it is.

I did OLD for several years and met my husband that way, but shortly before I met him, I attended some meet ups. The groups I attended were for singles in my age group and basically the leader posts the day and time we'll be meeting for an event, and you can belong to several different groups if they have them in your area. I went to a blueberry festival where we just sat at patio tables for wine and baked goods and talked. I went to a hobo barbecue where you were supposed to wear ratty clothes. There were events I couldn't go to because I had to work, but they included bowling, kayaking, and hiking in a park.

I didn't meet anyone I had chemistry with during those events, but I certainly enjoyed people's company whether male or female, and it was something different to do because me and my friends' leisure schedules don't always mesh because of different shifts and different days off. Different people and new people can and do show up according to the event, and so I could've imagined that it would've been successful for me given time, but I ended up meeting my husband so I no longer went.

There are also meet ups that have nothing to do with meeting other singles and are open to anyone. Just some info for those who are curious how meetup.com works. Take care.

I did OLD for several years and met my husband that way, but shortly before I met him, I attended some meet ups. The groups I attended were for singles in my age group and basically the leader posts the day and time we'll be meeting for an event, and you can belong to several different groups if they have them in your area. I went to a blueberry festival where we just sat at patio tables for wine and baked goods and talked. I went to a hobo barbecue where you were supposed to wear ratty clothes. There were events I couldn't go to because I had to work, but they included bowling, kayaking, and hiking in a park.

 

I didn't meet anyone I had chemistry with during those events, but I certainly enjoyed people's company whether male or female, and it was something different to do because me and my friends' leisure schedules don't always mesh because of different shifts and different days off. Different people and new people can and do show up according to the event, and so I could've imagined that it would've been successful for me given time, but I ended up meeting my husband so I no longer went.

 

There are also meet ups that have nothing to do with meeting other singles and are open to anyone. Just some info for those who are curious how meetup.com works. Take care.

I signed up yesterday evening and will be having a look through all of the different groups in my area. Even from a new interests/hobby perspective, it looks great. Thanks so much for suggesting.

After seeing the word "Tinder", I must say I jumped to the conclusion (and I'm sure I'm not alone here), it's mainly for hooking up and casual dating, not for finding true love.

If you are looking for something more meaningful, other apps may be better for girlfriend material.

I remember when I was online dating and finding that the online dating platforms you had to pay for brought in higher quality matches than the free sites.

After seeing the word "Tinder", I must say I jumped to the conclusion (and I'm sure I'm not alone here), it's mainly for hooking up and casual dating, not for finding true love.

 

If you are looking for something more meaningful, other apps may be better for girlfriend material.

 

I remember when I was online dating and finding that the online dating platforms you had to pay for brought in higher quality matches than the free sites.

I would’ve maybe assumed that ‘hook-up’ was her MO had she not kept in contact afterwards. That wouldn’t make sense to me... but then it would perhaps lend itself to her comments about “putting herself first in all aspects of her life just now.” ie. a less self-defamatory way of saying she’s out for selfish needs only.

Ah, we’ll see how it pans out but I’m definitely not chasing something that’s clearly not there right now.

Well, I might just have turned that right around. Figured I had nothing to lose so I decided to get her a flat-warming gift in celebration of her getting her new place. I’m an artist by profession and drew her a pic of her dog (she even brought her on our first date) and left it on her doorstep today so she got it when she got in from her crazy work shift. She absolutely loves it wants to go out for a meal once she’s all sorted in her new place... maybe sooner. Really did not see that coming... but I’ll take it. Proof that there really is no rulebook.