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Physical Violence Provocation??


Centain1988

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I am aware of the widely accepted views regarding domestic violence, that there is never an excuse for physical violence. That the physically aggressive partner is completely to blame for their violent behaviour, and the suggestion that they were ‘provoked’ by verbal/emotional (non-physical) abuse from their spouse, is not even a possibility worth considering. The partner who becomes physically aggressive is always the abusive one and the other partner is always the innocent victim? Surely there are exceptions to this? As much as we constantly receive messages that DV is never the result of ‘provocation’, I find it a bit hard to believe. Every single case of physical partner violence that has ever occured anywhere has not been the result of verbal/emotional provocation from a partner?? What do other people think about this?

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As one of my favorite comedians puts it: "Let's not pretend every ass beating just falls out of the sky."

 

Make no mistake, someone's decision to physically escalate is their decision and their fault alone. Does that mean I think people should get a pass for being an absolute d1ck and putting someone in a position to remove themselves-- potentially from their own home-- or suffer psychological duress from their partner? Absolutely not. It just means they're both responsible for their own involvements without necessarily arguing a causal effect. I've witnessed a woman telling a guy something to the effect of "this is why your [then dead] father never loved you." As much as I might think that anyone, man or woman, who says something like that deserves a solid smack, you just don't do it. Unless someone's blocked off your mode of egress, I do believe it's your responsibility to maintain the high ground and leave such a person to shoulder their emotional abuse.

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OP, is this about your own out of control anger issues, insecurity and control issues? You cannot blame anyone else when you lose control and and have major anger issues. That's something you have to deal with and get sorted out. Have you ever sort professional counselling/therapy to help you overcome all of these issues?

 

(I am assuming this thread is about your own story. If not, please give us more information on what exactly this is about).

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I infer you are talking about males hitting females here, not rarer situations - such as an abused woman belting the guy over the head with a saucepan to knock him out, in a justifiable act of self defence?

 

Lots of (very high percentage, I'd say) couples have their disagreements and arguments, yelling matches, etc. Some people need to vent because bottling things up is a worse thing for them.

 

Most of the men in these relationships do not beat up their women. They have self control, maybe some understanding too. Maybe they let it go, and don't even yell back, because they love them a bit.

 

There is plenty of sociological research that suggests that wife beaters are exhibiting learned behavior - learned from their own violent fathers, in a self perpetuating cycle of misery.

 

There is never an excuse for that type of physical violence. Provocation (by a heated disagreement) is not even a possibility worth considering.

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who says something like that deserves a solid smack, you just don't do it.

 

Agree. Some people can push your buttons and might deserve it. But it does not make it okay or right to give in and let it progress to physical violence.

 

You walk away, get away from that person and stay away if it's getting that bad.

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Well, you can make a case for two people both exhibiting mutually destruction behavior. For example, if both witnessed abuse or were abused by their parents, or if both partners are controlling and manipulative and have anger issues. There are stories of Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall both going at each other, smashing plates, vases and lamps as they went at each other, yet friends reported they were deeply in love. Some people love the drama. It gets the heart thumping and the blood rushing. And then there's the make-up sex afterwards. But here I'm talking about two famous celebrities that people made allowances for. I would say it was an extremely toxic relationship and most of us can't afford that either emotionally or financially. I do think any kind of physical violence crosses the line.

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Are you in a physically violent or emotionally abusive relationship? Did you hit or slap someone because you were "provoked"? Unfortunately your rationalizing is not how the law sees it.

 

It's not about "widely accepted views" or "messages" or opinions. Whoever draws blood or leaves marks is the one going to jail. Assault is a crime regardless of what anyone did verbally/mentally. And that is not a "view".

 

It doesn't matter what people "think". And it doesn't matter what you "believe". Assault laws are black and white, not opinion polls.

I am aware of the widely accepted views. As much as we constantly receive messages that DV is never the result of ‘provocation’, I find it a bit hard to believe. ?
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When someone is verbally provoking you, you have a choice to walk away, leave the room, leave the house and most importantly, leave the abusive relationship. When you stay to fight, you are escalating an already charged situation, when you lose control and physically lash out - you've already made a series of conscious bad choices each increasingly escalating toward violence. You're making conscious deliberate choices that you and only you are in control of. It's not an opinion or a point of view that physical violence is never justified - it's a fact.

 

Also, if you find yourself struggling to react calmly or to walk away or otherwise find yourself having angry or having violent reactions and otherwise feel like you are easily provoked into that, it's on you to take responsibility for your emotions and to seek help. Meaning be single and work hard on learning how to gain control and cope with your emotions. Coping skills are learned and when you've learned badly or haven't learned at all, it's on you to do what it takes to learn better.

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I am aware of the widely accepted views regarding domestic violence, that there is never an excuse for physical violence. That the physically aggressive partner is completely to blame for their violent behaviour, and the suggestion that they were ‘provoked’ by verbal/emotional (non-physical) abuse from their spouse, is not even a possibility worth considering. The partner who becomes physically aggressive is always the abusive one and the other partner is always the innocent victim? Surely there are exceptions to this? As much as we constantly receive messages that DV is never the result of ‘provocation’, I find it a bit hard to believe. Every single case of physical partner violence that has ever occured anywhere has not been the result of verbal/emotional provocation from a partner?? What do other people think about this?

 

I've dealt with a lot of nasty people and never felt the need to slap or hit them. I argued or walked away. That is how it is handled.

 

The only time I've resorted to physical violence is when someone physically attacked me.

 

There is never any excuse to physically attack someone who has not laid hands on you.

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I've dealt with a lot of nasty people and never felt the need to slap or hit them. I argued or walked away. That is how it is handled.

 

The only time I've resorted to physical violence is when someone physically attacked me.

 

There is never any excuse to physically attack someone who has not laid hands on you.

Absolutely, the only reason to hit back is fighting for your own life. Other than that take the walk.

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Putting self-defense aside (which is fine as needed) then yes -you have to walk away/get away, do breathing/go into your zone if you cannot leave right then (i.e. you're in a car, you have to stay to care for a child, etc). I have actually said to my child when he pushes my buttons that I am going to give myself a time out so I can calm down. And I do. In advance of those kinds of situations find go to mantras, rituals, things you can do to calm yourself down -actually plan it. Because if you are provoked you're of course going to want to act on impulse and then you can stop (so important, just stop) and pick from what can work then. And practice it when things are annoying but not provoked. So for example today I listened with earbuds to the radio in the car as my husband drove us home from an activity. My son and I were sitting in the back, he was happy, there was traffic and I knew I was cranky and needed decompressing time/space. But you have to know yourself and know how to calm yourself down and also be attune to how you're feeling before it escalates. Sometimes what your partner says might hit you harder because you're already stressed out.

 

And yes if your partner regularly pushes your buttons then when it's calm have a talk about how that makes you feel and ask if she can communicate differently (or consider counseling). You can tell her how angry/stressed it makes you and see what she says.

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The partner who becomes physically aggressive is always the abusive one and the other partner is always the innocent victim? Surely there are exceptions to this?

Oh, c'mOn. The one who becomes physical had the ability to walk away long before reaching for that.

 

All relationships being voluntary, when you're in a bad one, leave. Otherwise, you can ponder your best justifications from a jail cell.

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I will be the first to admit my ex and I had some knock down drag out arguments and pushed one another’s buttons like no other.

 

His abuse in my eyes was always his way of ‘winning’ if that makes sense. It was you pissed me off so much I am going to put you back into your place.

 

They say even parents who hit do so because they’re lacking the skills needed to properly control the situation, and this is with little humans.

 

So no, there really is no excuse. The violence is about asserting power over another person and it’s never ok. You end a volitile situation by walking away, not by punching someone in the face.

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I will be the first to admit my ex and I had some knock down drag out arguments and pushed one another’s buttons like no other.

 

His abuse in my eyes was always his way of ‘winning’ if that makes sense. It was you pissed me off so much I am going to put you back into your place.

 

They say even parents who hit do so because they’re lacking the skills needed to properly control the situation, and this is with little humans.

 

So no, there really is no excuse. The violence is about asserting power over another person and it’s never ok. You end a volitile situation by walking away, not by punching someone in the face.

 

We do not use physical discipline ever. And I know of parents who believe that it is the "only way" not because they lack skills - to me that's a problem in poor education/not looking into the potential ramifications of physical discipline as opposed to losing control. I've witnessed both.

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It's rarely so clear cut as one monster and one innocent victim. Most domestic violence happens within groups of people who are stuck in the cycle of violence.

This does not take responsibility away at all from one who commits assault. It's simply to say, it's usually more complex. The cycle of violence breeds and perpetuates itself in a rich soup of many unhealthy choices.

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It's rarely so clear cut as one monster and one innocent victim. Most domestic violence happens within groups of people who are stuck in the cycle of violence.

This does not take responsibility away at all from one who commits assault. It's simply to say, it's usually more complex. The cycle of violence breeds and perpetuates itself in a rich soup of many unhealthy choices.

 

Deffinetely not one monster and one innocent victim. Sometimes I think that stereotype is why everyone seems to want to be abused, so they can view themselves as innocent, but like you said it’s not that black and white.

 

What IS black and white, is once you resort to violence, you have committed a crime that has irreparable consequences.

 

It’s a choice.

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Deffinetely not one monster and one innocent victim. Sometimes I think that stereotype is why everyone seems to want to be abused, so they can view themselves as innocent, but like you said it’s not that black and white.

 

What IS black and white, is once you resort to violence, you have committed a crime that has irreparable consequences.

 

It’s a choice.

 

I had to read that a few times, but now I understand what you are saying.

 

I've seen a fair share of domestic abuse. Not me personally, but witness to it ( and at times it's been part of my job to help document it).

I've seen a woman beat to a nearly a pulp on the street in broad day, bystanders intervened to help her, and she literally ran after her spouse who was beating her in order to beg them back and then spit in their face. When the cops arrived, she lied .

I've had a friend throw me under the bus for coming to help her exit a situation ( she had pleaded with me to), and then taking and hiding her partners passport and documents and money, calling him every nasty name in the book, watching him then threaten me, and casting me as a villain in their drama.

 

Etc etc. Children often used as pawns.

 

I think anyone who has witnessed domestic abuse sees certain patterns.

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Yes, abuse is a very complicated situation. It's sometimes difficult to draw the line when it comes to abuse, because it can be reciprocal. Also, whether it is reciprocal or not, people tend to hide it.

 

It's easier to draw the line when abuse becomes physical, because "assault" is a very specific thing. There is often (but not always) evidence of physical abuse, whereas mental abuse is much more difficult to detect.

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  • 1 month later...

I think DV is very poorly understood generally, and the research complicated by politics and a general unwillingness to deal with uncomfortable truths about our nature and biology. Added to all that is that there is a whole industry that depends on ever increasing government support of shelters and victim support. I think in this thread we are talking about a particular DV that is caused by provocation, and I think the type that is also well represented by women as well. This is where a verbal provocation results in the argument becoming physical.

 

I think this is very different than the DV that happens as a means to control and dominate which I would call "mate guarding behavior." Men are much more likely to engage in this type of behavior. As much as we like to believe behavior is stickily learned, there is a lot of research to suggest that there is at least partly a biological component. That means it is heritable is and a reason why that type of behavior might be favored from an evolutionary perspective. Evolution is only about seeing your DNA successfully into the next generation. Guys who don't engage in mate guarding behavior would much more likely be risking their neck or spending resources on DNA not their own.

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LOL, assaulting women is in your DNA and an evolutionary must for males in general?

 

The only correct part of this absurd notion is that yes, the brains of sociopaths are differently wired and that is indicated on PET scans where there is a void in empathy and a delight in violence, torture, etc. It's ridiculous to purport that males need to resort to violence to get and keep mates.

I think DV is very poorly understood generally, That means it is heritable is and a reason why that type of behavior might be favored from an evolutionary perspective. Evolution is only about seeing your DNA successfully into the next generation.
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