Big Little Lies and Abusive Relationships

I just finished watching this series on HBO (Big Little Lies), is anyone familiar?

Anyway I was wanting to address Celeste's (Nicole Kidman) relationship/marriage to her husband, Perry.

I am troubled by the fact their relationship intrigues me so much!

Clearly it's abusive, both emotionally and physically; they appear to feed off each other -- he's angry, has love/hate feelings towards her and women in general (he had actually raped Jane before meeting Celeste), and she appears to get off on it. So does he!

Pushing his buttons to the point of provoking his anger, and when he hits her, she fights back which culminates in them having sex -- angry often violent sex.

This is their dynamic which they both admit to, but the toxicity also troubles them, and are in therapy because of it.

It was also super interesting listening to him explain why he becomes so enraged at her and abusive!

Because he fears she will leave him, because he loves her so much? More like obsessed actually.

He allows her no friends, no job, no life outside of him and their two young boys.

Because he fears she will leave him, he loves her so much.

I actually believe him, as dysfunctional as that sounds!

He's a very tough businessman on the outside, but inside he's broken, actually very weak and scared. I wonder if this is true of all abusers?

I never understood abusive relationships before and why the person being abused stayed, but I think after watching this series I understand better now.

She did eventually leave him though, but this was their dynamic for 6+ years.

Anyway, not sure why I find their relationship so compelling, but I can't stop thinking about it and wanted to post about it.

I also wonder what that says about me! Feeling so intrigued by it.

Thanks to HBO for bringing us such a thought-provoking and compelling series!

Thoughts?

This was a book first. I read it about 3 years ago, and it was such a page-turner that I didn't want to see the mini-series because, well, the movie is never as good as the book. Except in this case. They nailed it. Yes, I watched it, and it was every bit as good as the book, maybe better, because of the casting. So spot on. I highly highly recommend the book.

What it says about you is what it says about so many women who read the book, and have used it as book club discussion, for the past several years: that we all know women whose relationships look so crystal-perfect but are horrible. Heck, just read these boards any day. And many of us have lived it.

Glad you brought this up!

This was a book first. I read it about 3 years ago, and it was such a page-turner that I didn't want to see the mini-series because, well, the movie is never as good as the book. Except in this case. They nailed it. Yes, I watched it, and it was every bit as good as the book, maybe better, because of the casting. So spot on. I highly highly recommend the book.

 

What it says about you is what it says about so many women who read the book, and have used it as book club discussion, for the past several years: that we all know women whose relationships look so crystal-perfect but are horrible. Heck, just read these boards any day. And many of us have lived it.

 

Glad you brought this up!

I know right? One of the best! So powerful.

I am going to have to do it backwards, I watched the series, now I will read the book.

Do you have any thoughts about Celeste and Perry's relationship?

Did HBO nail that?

If so, wow, I don't know if you've ever been in an abusive relationship, I have not, and like I said never understood them.

Now I do, at least on some level.

My thoughts on Celeste & Perry's relationship is that it follows the pattern of so many abusive ones: they love each other, but he can't stop the abuse, and she can't stop accepting his apologies. So the cycle just goes on and on, hence all of the domestic violence incidents we read today.

Yes, HBO nailed it all. The only thing that's different about the whole series vs. the book (not giving anything away here) is that the book is set in Australia. I guess HBO chose Carmel, CA, to give American viewers more connection, plus they didn't want to have to have all the actors use Australian accents, lol.

I've never been in an abusive relationship either. The closest I came was with a guy who turned out to be a violent yeller. Nothing physical, or at least that I'd have known, as I left him shortly after his yelling started. He'd do the wonderful guy/extreme violent yelling/apologize cycle, which didn't start until we were engaged and living together. I went to counseling after about the 3rd time he did this, and I was highly and strongly advised to leave immediately, which I did. I lost the love for him the minute he yelled at me, so I never looked back.

How some women can take it year after year is a matter for their therapist, their family history, etc. I couldn't take it.

I also think that it's so compelling to think about C & P's relationship because they are such "perfect" people. Of course, they used Nicole Kidman and, forgot the actor, as her extremely handsome husband, and they lived in a stunning home, with all the money they could want, all the friends, the social life, just perfection. Until we get this glimpse behind their front door and see what it's really like.

It's like watching a car wreck, where we can't look away, only this is like watching a Lamborghini and a Rolls.

Also, I think it's too late for this, as I've already posted a lot:

SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD for anyone who hasn't viewed the series/read the book.

Tnx LHGirl, I think what surprised me the most was hearing Celeste admit to the therapist that she actually got off on their dynamic (sexually) -- the cycle of him (or her) provoking an argument, him becoming violent, culminating in rough angry and often violent sex.

In one episode when things were calm between them, she began to provoke him, and he actually responded by asking her "do you want me to hit you"?

She became quiet after which he said "sometimes I think you do."

She did not deny it.

She later told the therapist is was because after he hurt her, she felt she had all the power! I suppose because of how remorseful he was.

Things would be calm for awhile but then the cycle would begin again.

Wow, so honest, so genuine, so real!

I wonder how many abuse victims would actually admit to that!

Also, I think it's too late for this, as I've already posted a lot:

 

SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD for anyone who hasn't viewed the series/read the book.

Agree, did you know they are filming a season 2?

Meryl Streep will be starring this time.

It won't be based on the book because they covered the book in season 1.

Should be just as powerful though! Looking forward to it!

Agree, did you know they are filming a season 2?

 

Meryl Streep will be starring this time.

 

It won't be based on the book because they covered the book in season 1.

 

Should be just as great though! Looking forward to it!

I had no idea! Wow, Meryl Streep! I bet it'll be amazing!

I was also intrigued by their relationship because of the passion and intensity. A highly toxic relationship but none the less I agree Katrina I believe he genuinely loved her. There were moments that made me cringe in the show between Perry and Celeste. Because it's classic abuse and was hating him more towards the end.

You can see how hard it was for her to leave him because of the manipulation and control he had over her.

I was also intrigued by their relationship because of the passion and intensity. A highly toxic relationship but none the less I agree Katrina I believe he genuinely loved her. There were moments that made me cringe in the show between Perry and Celeste. Because it's classic abuse and was hating him more towards the end.

 

You can see how hard it was for her to leave him because of the manipulation and control he had over her.

Yeah, so much so, early on in the series, he actually had her believing she enjoyed it!

Towards the end, we discovered that wasn't true at all, you're right it was all manipulation and control.

What's also interesting, in addition to them being the "perfect" couple like LHGirl said, prior to marrying him she was a successful and accomplished lawyer!

These types of toxic relationships really run the full spectrum among all social classes.

I used to watch this series on repeat. I love it. Read the book later and was disappointed because the book left me more with a chick lit feeling (and I didn't have it with the TV series).

Just wanted to point something out - Perry didn't rape Jane before meeting Celeste. The twins and Ziggy are roughly the same age (after all - they are in the same class at school). And I think Celeste mentioned to the therapist that her and Perry had hard time conceiving. So, it happened while Celeste and Perry were together (with an implication that it may have not been the only occasion Perry has done something like that while being on a business trip).

As to the abusive relationship dynamics... My personal feeling is not that Celeste is provoking Perry on purpose. More like she is having some clear moments here and there when she's able to clearly see the abusive behaviour through Perry's attempts to mask it as being overly concerned for her. And thus - gaining the courage to stand her ground (and yet, he was able to twist it again as her 'provoking' him - textbook classic abuser).

My experience with abuse is definitely milder (on the emotional side). But I don't see abusive people as completely inhuman villains. I see them as very damaged people who are incapable of any kind of introspection and actually tend to feel the victim of circumstances and other people's deeds themselves. As frightened narrow souls. As sensitive egos. Maybe this doesn't apply to all cases and is just my experience, of course.

^^Thank you for chiming in JC! I was hoping someone who had been abused would comment with their thoughts and insights.

Great observations about Perry and Jane (him raping her while married to Celeste), I think you're right! Which just goes to show how important our environment is when growing up.

I mean look at Ziggy (Jane's son by Perry through rape)-- sensitive, empathetic, sweet, shy (according to the psychologist).

And look at Celeste and Perry's son, Max (who was actually the bully who choked and bit Amanella at school).

Both have the same father and share his DNA, but because they were raised in different environments, they have completely different natures and personalities.

I agree that Perry was very damaged, he even admitted during the final episode in the car with C telling her how sick he was and stuggling with demons.

Course by then C was totally done.

Prior to watching this, I was also under the mistaken impression that abusers sought out "weak" women who they could control and eventually abuse.

Not true! I mean look at C, a successful lawyer, and even throughout their marriage she remained strong, fighting back (physically) and screaming "If you ever lay another hand on me again, I'm leaving!!"

I admired her being strong like that!

It didn't matter though, he still continued to abuse! At times her fighting back made it worse!

Just speculation, but I now think perhaps abusers choose independent, strong, accomplished women precisely so they can break them down. An ego boost of sorts, makes them feel powerful. It's a slow and insidious process.

To all victims of abuse -- I apologize for misjudging, I understand better now why you stayed and how difficult it may have been to break away.

I hope you eventually were able to though, that you recovered and living a happy stable life!

One - she did not get off on it. It's a coping mechanism very common with people with people being physically abused that they enjoy it or deserve it, or else there they think there is something really wrong with them. No one gets off on actual rape. Dominance is one thing. Rape and being beaten is an entirely something else.

Love the show. I feel it's the best ending I've ever seen on HBO in a TV series.

One - she did not get off on it. It's a coping mechanism very common with people with people being physically abused that they enjoy it or deserve it, or else there they think there is something really wrong with them. No one gets off on actual rape. Dominance is one thing. Rape and being beaten is an entirely something else.

 

Love the show. I feel it's the best ending I've ever seen on HBO in a TV series.

Sorry I was just going by what Celeste herself told the therapist.

Not that she "got off" on being abused per se but that a part of her enjoyed (not sure if that's the word she used) their dynamic - because it always led to passionate sex (angry but exciting in her mind) even though she knew it was extremely toxic and dysfunctional.

Which is why they started seeing the therapist in the first place, to break out of the toxic cycle.

She took responsibility for her role in the dysfunction too which I admired her for.

That said as I said before in response to limichelle's post, I think that mindset was due to Perry's manipulation and the control he had over her.

Toward the end, she recognized none of it was her fault, that she should have left him a long time ago, and she began to emotionally (and physically) break away from him, and his abuse escalated.

Again, just going by what she herself told the therapist.

...

a part of her enjoyed (not sure if that's the word she used) their dynamic

...

Again, just going by what she herself told the therapist.

Celeste wasn't completely honest with the therapist, especially in the beginning. But it was more like she wasn't honest with herself in the first place.

The heart of the issue was so utterly disturbing and shameful to her, that she had put a thick defence wall around it, thus living in a partial denial.

(She never told about it to any of her friends.)

To accept one's own responsibility for the abuse, while being the victim, is just another complicated trap the victim had fallen into. It takes away part of the abuser's cruelty ('it's not their fault, I make them upset'), it makes the situation look more normal and less of a serious problem and it gives them something to fight for/improve on their own part - i.e. it makes them further tolerate the abuse, having the false sense of control over it (through their own deeds).

There's also another complication in these types of situations. As I stated before, people who are capable of abuse are rarely a pure evil. They have a bright (possibly even warm) side they have shown in the beginning and maybe continue showing here and there. Have you read/heard how their partners would complain of certain behaviour but when the outside opinion weighs towards 'run away and don't ever look back', they would turn around and say 'but they are a lovely person/husband/wife/father/mother otherwise' or 'but I love them and want to help them see how it's wrong'.

Anyway, apart from all that and much more that could be said on the subject, I agree that toxicity runs in all kinds of social circles and people from the whole spectrum of intelligence may find themselves in such situation. It depends on too many factors on both sides.

Celeste wasn't completely honest with the therapist, especially in the beginning. But it was more like she wasn't honest with herself in the first place.

The heart of the issue was so utterly disturbing and shameful to her, that she had put a thick defence wall around it, thus living in a partial denial.

(She never told about it to any of her friends.)

 

To accept one's own responsibility for the abuse, while being the victim, is just another complicated trap the victim had fallen into. It takes away part of the abuser's cruelty ('it's not their fault, I make them upset'), it makes the situation look more normal and less of a serious problem and it gives them something to fight for/improve on their own part - i.e. it makes them further tolerate the abuse, having the false sense of control over it (through their own deeds).

 

There's also another complication in these types of situations. As I stated before, people who are capable of abuse are rarely a pure evil. They have a bright (possibly even warm) side they have shown in the beginning and maybe continue showing here and there. Have you read/heard how their partners would complain of certain behaviour but when the outside opinion weighs towards 'run away and don't ever look back', they would turn around and say 'but they are a lovely person/husband/wife/father/mother otherwise' or 'but I love them and want to help them see how it's wrong'.

 

Anyway, apart from all that and much more that could be said on the subject, I agree that toxicity runs in all kinds of social circles and people from the whole spectrum of intelligence may find themselves in such situation. It depends on too many factors on both sides.

This is great insight once again, clearly there are still many things I don't quite understand about abuse and the mindset of those involved.

Perhaps after reading the book I may gain a bit more, I may watch the series again too.

I often gain new insights the second time around.

Anyway, thanks again for chiming in, I know how sensitive this subject is and appreciate all the respectful responses. :)

All abusive and manipulative people will make you think it's your fault. and that you deserve it because of this or that. Once they have you believing it's your fault in some way, it traps you into thinking you like the abuse. Nope. No child or person deserves physical or emotional abuse. Last time I checked, getting kicked in the stomach repeatedly is not cool even when you leave toys on the floor your kids were just playing with.

It wasn't toxic. He will just physically beating her.