about free thinking and arrogance

I have recently had an argument with someone regarding some things that i do that are out of the ordinary (nothing extreme). The way i am is that i simply can't do what everyone else is doing without having a reason to do so, especially when i have a reason to do it in a different way (many times my own decision aligns with what others think. i am not someone that opposes norms and conformity, but rather someone that just does what he thinks is right, be in in alignment or against norms). the guy i had the argument with (who is someone that does what everyone else does without asking questions, and who is obsessed with social norms) told me that the way i live is wrong, because i think too highly of myself, that i am an arrogant for doing what i want and not do what everyone else does, that i think my opinions are superior, and thus i'm arrogant. i don't even know anymore.. is it arrogance and superiority when you make your own decisions for yourself? indeed, i dismiss the opinions of those who are intolerant or hating on me for the things that i like, and adopt some arrogance. but that is not because i think i'm superior, but rather to defend myself from hate and negativity.

this questions has eaten at me for some days.. "am i arrogant for doing what i think is right, even when it's against what everyone else is thinking? because it means i think my opinion is superior".

You must give examples. How can we answer without knowing what you are doing.

Why follow the herd off the cliff? Just because this guy says so?

I do what I think is right for me and I dont really care what anyone else says. I dont do illegal or immoral things, so to me it's nobody's business how I conduct my life if is not affecting them. I dont see that as arrogant, but rather doing what works for me.

I think it may be in how you present your ideas that could turn someone off. What you say and how you say it affects how others see you. Maybe you come on too strong? I dont know, I dont know you. Something to think about.

I'd never make it as a sheep in this world, I follow my own path and try to be nice to others when I talk about it.

Why follow the herd off the cliff? Just because this guy says so?

^This. Insecure people worry about pleasing and conforming with the crowd. Unfortunately they will also viciously attack those who they perceive as different, strong, capable of doing what they can't.

Doing what is right, rather than blindly following the herd, takes a lot of power, but power is not arrogance. You are arrogant when you can't admit when you are wrong about something even when you know you are and insist that something is done your way despite it not working.

Why follow the herd off the cliff? Just because this guy says so?

it's not about whether following it or not. i can't follow it. that's the way i am. i don't really think i could change that. but i just want to know if it's arrogance and superiority behind my way of living, or just the fact that i want to live free and do what i want.

if everyone else does it, there must be a reason for it.. but if i don't know the reason, and if i have a reason of my own to not do it, i just can't follow blindly..

also, do you think it's wrong to spend your money the way you want to, even if you could help someone else much more with them? i want to help others, but i just can't live without spending money on the things that i want and buy myself some happiness. even if it would come at the cost of not helping others with it.. i just feel guilty..

it's not about whether following it or not. i can't follow it. that's the way i am. i don't really think i could change that. but i just want to know if it's arrogance and superiority behind my way of living, or just the fact that i want to live free and do what i want.

 

if everyone else does it, there must be a reason for it.. but if i don't know the reason, and if i have a reason of my own to not do it, i just can't follow blindly..

 

also, do you think it's wrong to spend your money the way you want to, even if you could help someone else much more with them? i want to help others, but i just can't live without spending money on the things that i want and buy myself some happiness. even if it would come at the cost of not helping others with it.. i just feel guilty..

What are you doing that's different than them?

Why aren't you giving clear examples?

What are you doing that's different than them?

i have some passions and hobbies that are not seen well by most people. gaming and watching anime are two of them. they are seen as childish and a waste of time. when i go to parties, i prefer to be crazy and wild, rather than boring and just watching others having fun. i don't mind doing or laughing at silly things, and looking like a child. as long as i don't harm anyone and i have fun. when i talk to people, i say what's on my mind, i want to discuss and learn something from the discussion, not just blindly agree to everything. when i don't know something i don't mind asking or saying that i don't know, thing that is seen as stupid. i had some "weird" haircuts in the past. i don't wear clothes that are in fashion. i wear what i like and what feels comfortable. i don't mind talking about topics that are considered "cringe". i don't mind admitting to liking music that is perceived as bad or weird. i don't mind asking for help or "screaming" of pain, which is seen as unmanly. i scream and have fun when i play games with friends, which is seen as childish. i swear and talk in a way that is not formal at all when i'm with friends. i don't mind being myself even when there are unknown people around (many have told me that i shouldn't be that way when there are people that don't know me yet because they will see me as stupid).

things like this. nothing extremely weird, but still different.

As long as you are not harming or offending people or someone is paying for your fun or hobbies, do whatever you want. If people are put off by you they won't bother with you anymore, so it tends to sort itself out. How old are you? It sounds like you have a rebellious streak you need to live out until that itself gets old and boring. If you are disrespecting the rights and feelings of others then yes, that's arrogant and/or immature.

I can see why your friend said that. We should be individual, but when it comes off as obnoxious and embarrassing, it is a problem. You cannot really expect people to accept things, when they are too far off of the norm.

How old are you?

i have some passions and hobbies that are not seen well by most people. gaming and watching anime are two of them. they are seen as childish and a waste of time. when i go to parties, i prefer to be crazy and wild, rather than boring and just watching others having fun. i don't mind doing or laughing at silly things, and looking like a child. as long as i don't harm anyone and i have fun. when i talk to people, i say what's on my mind, i want to discuss and learn something from the discussion, not just blindly agree to everything. when i don't know something i don't mind asking or saying that i don't know, thing that is seen as stupid. i had some "weird" haircuts in the past. i don't wear clothes that are in fashion. i wear what i like and what feels comfortable. i don't mind talking about topics that are considered "cringe". i don't mind admitting to liking music that is perceived as bad or weird. i don't mind asking for help or "screaming" of pain, which is seen as unmanly. i scream and have fun when i play games with friends, which is seen as childish. i swear and talk in a way that is not formal at all when i'm with friends. i don't mind being myself even when there are unknown people around (many have told me that i shouldn't be that way when there are people that don't know me yet because they will see me as stupid).

 

things like this. nothing extremely weird, but still different.

..... Well....I mean I hate to say this, but you are not unique and your interests....only millions of others out there are into exactly that, so you are far from alone. Things like that only cause conflict when you try to hang out with people who are too different and do have a condescending opinion about your hobbies and passions. Thing about that is that no matter what you do or what you are passionate about - there will ALWAYS be people who disagree with you and disapprove of what you do. So what?

The trick in life sometimes is to find people/friends who are similar to you and who get you and are into the same things, rather than trying to insert yourself into a crowd that's too different from you. A case of like attracts like and opposites fight.

You remind me of my daughter and my brother... both super quirky and free thinking, both rebellious at times, both have come off as arrogant and self righteous about their values. My brother has outgrown his rebelliousness to a degree and is much more accepting of other points of view than he used to be but in his 20s your description might as well have been about him.

I am a free thinker too but not to that extreme... I am less rigid about it and am willing to follow if there is a good reason that aligns with my values.

Personally I see your version of free thinking as quite rigid. And you say you can’t follow the herd ever?! Of course you “can”... as in it’s physically and mentally possible for you to do so... you just don’t want to. Which is ok.

I find that free thinkers (myself included) might come off as self righteous or arrogant because we aren’t always as confident about our choices as we would like everyone to believe, and because sometimes we don’t feel supported so we feel like we have to convince others that what we are doing is ok.

Don’t change who you are, just be confident about all of your choices whether you get support or not and try and be open to the thoughts and feelings of others without trying to convince them of anything.

We won't be able to judge if what they told you had any grounding or not. That's not a matter of personal philosophy, interests or way of thinking but, more or less - of the way you express those.

In such situation I would ask myself - why this particular opinion had such a great impact on me. Was it because that guy was the first one to say it to me. Or, if he wasn't, why did his words weigh so much that I would question my whole persona. His opinion may bring you some constructive feedback or it may just have been a reflection of your own insecurities (which could be constructive feedback on itself, of course).

So, why does his opinion matter so much to you?

Is living that way arrogant? No. But-- and this coming from someone who very much shares your perspective and lifestyle-- people who make a point of it do tend to be. The people who know me best know that, while I don't act contrary just for the sake of being contrary, I don't do anything out of an arbitrary social obligation or to fit a norm. But I've never once said as much. I'm only doing so here to perhaps arrogantly qualify my opinion. People who tout they're such rebels or are free-minded come off like the kid in first grade who bragged about telling his mom he wasn't going to do the dishes or how he sneaks out of the house to play violent video games with his friend even though he's not allowed. In fact, what would be quite arrogant is assuming people conform to norms because they're less free-thinking when they very well could be making a reasoned decision to not invite scrutiny or social reprisal. With only your post to refer to, I have to say my guess is that your friend isn't completely off-base.

I think you should not let this one guy's opinion concern you or affect you. And if there is anything to be concerned about, it's that you are allowing it to affect you. One ear and out the other, who cares what he or anyone thinks?

I don't even think we need examples, you do what's best for you, and if that means you don't follow the standard social norms, that is okay!

I don't either, and if anyone has an issue with that, they can kiss my b***!! lol

In fact "social norms" turn me off. They have no place in a free-thinking modern society imho.

i have some passions and hobbies that are not seen well by most people. gaming and watching anime are two of them. they are seen as childish and a waste of time. when i go to parties, i prefer to be crazy and wild, rather than boring and just watching others having fun. i don't mind doing or laughing at silly things, and looking like a child. as long as i don't harm anyone and i have fun. when i talk to people, i say what's on my mind, i want to discuss and learn something from the discussion, not just blindly agree to everything. when i don't know something i don't mind asking or saying that i don't know, thing that is seen as stupid. i had some "weird" haircuts in the past. i don't wear clothes that are in fashion. i wear what i like and what feels comfortable. i don't mind talking about topics that are considered "cringe". i don't mind admitting to liking music that is perceived as bad or weird. i don't mind asking for help or "screaming" of pain, which is seen as unmanly. i scream and have fun when i play games with friends, which is seen as childish. i swear and talk in a way that is not formal at all when i'm with friends. i don't mind being myself even when there are unknown people around (many have told me that i shouldn't be that way when there are people that don't know me yet because they will see me as stupid).

 

things like this. nothing extremely weird, but still different.

You dont sound all that different to me. So you like you own hair style, clothes, music. We all have our preferences. None are right or wrong, just different. Different is not wrong. You seem like a worrier, which is a waste of energy. You wanna play games? Do it. You want to yell during playing a game? Do it. As long as you aren't blatantly bothering others around you, there's no harm to any of it.

You cant please everyone nor should you try. I much prefer people who are their own person and do their own thing than a group of tag along sheep who cant think for themselves.

With only your post to refer to, I have to say my guess is that your friend isn't completely off-base.

I agree....

i have some passions and hobbies that are not seen well by most people. gaming and watching anime are two of them. they are seen as childish and a waste of time. when i go to parties, i prefer to be crazy and wild, rather than boring and just watching others having fun. i don't mind doing or laughing at silly things, and looking like a child. as long as i don't harm anyone and i have fun. when i talk to people, i say what's on my mind, i want to discuss and learn something from the discussion, not just blindly agree to everything. when i don't know something i don't mind asking or saying that i don't know, thing that is seen as stupid. i had some "weird" haircuts in the past. i don't wear clothes that are in fashion. i wear what i like and what feels comfortable. i don't mind talking about topics that are considered "cringe". i don't mind admitting to liking music that is perceived as bad or weird. i don't mind asking for help or "screaming" of pain, which is seen as unmanly. i scream and have fun when i play games with friends, which is seen as childish. i swear and talk in a way that is not formal at all when i'm with friends. i don't mind being myself even when there are unknown people around (many have told me that i shouldn't be that way when there are people that don't know me yet because they will see me as stupid).

 

things like this. nothing extremely weird, but still different.

So you are a gamer and watch anime and sort of pride yourself on being "the edgy one". I do think screaming over a video game is childish. How do people know when you are really in trouble or hurt? I think acting really wild at parties is also immature -- or reckless. I was under the impression that your friends swore, partied too hard and you came across as a bit of a prude and looked down your nose at them -- when its quite the opposite -- "being informal" is one thing but cussing like a sailor as you get older so that friends are hesitant to invite you out in public with them is another matter. There is a "time and a place" sometimes and if i was your friend and wanted to go out to dinner or to an art festival or something I would not invite you because you would be speaking inappropriately in front of kids, and other people who don't want to hear it and didn't go to a restaurant to hear someone's filthy mouth. If you want to be "this is who i am = deal with it!!' Then you have to expect people to want to distance themselves or move on from you.

So- -- play video games and like anime, but really, if you want to people to keep socializing with you - they are trying to tell you as friends that you need to reel it in. Being vulgar is not "who you are" - its a behavior choice chosen to be edgy or offputting. if you had Tourette's i would excuse you but it appears that you don't.

If you are a "Free thinker" then you should accept your friends for who they are as well -- it goes both ways, you know?

So you are a gamer and watch anime and sort of pride yourself on being "the edgy one". I do think screaming over a video game is childish. How do people know when you are really in trouble or hurt? I think acting really wild at parties is also immature -- or reckless. I was under the impression that your friends swore, partied too hard and you came across as a bit of a prude and looked down your nose at them -- when its quite the opposite -- "being informal" is one thing but cussing like a sailor as you get older so that friends are hesitant to invite you out in public with them is another matter. There is a "time and a place" sometimes and if i was your friend and wanted to go out to dinner or to an art festival or something I would not invite you because you would be speaking inappropriately in front of kids, and other people who don't want to hear it and didn't go to a restaurant to hear someone's filthy mouth. If you want to be "this is who i am = deal with it!!' Then you have to expect people to want to distance themselves or move on from you.

 

So- -- play video games and like anime, but really, if you want to people to keep socializing with you - they are trying to tell you as friends that you need to reel it in. Being vulgar is not "who you are" - its a behavior choice chosen to be edgy or offputting. if you had Tourette's i would excuse you but it appears that you don't.

This entire post is worth repeating. As always abitbroken covered it so well and far more eloquently than I ever could.

Hey rangerQ,

Bear with me, somewhat rambling analysis follows. Also, totally just opinion.

In my opinion, the paramountcy of freedom of expression and individual rights over social harmony and communal rights in western societies is fairly arrogant and often expressed from a position of superiority. This is what you do when you choose to disregard or ignore social norms - you are saying 'my right to express myself is more important than your right to feel safe/comfortable'. It should be immediately clear that this shouldn't be axiomatic - sometimes social harmony is more important. Some people here have suggested that 'as long as your not doing anything illegal, its fine' - the law is structured to restrict freedom where necessary for social harmony. However, the law is also an expression of the primacy of rights in our society, and only act as a barrier to the most extreme and destructive expressions. I would suggest that instead, we should evaluate our actions for equanimity between expression and harmony, our individual rights and our duty to our communities.

I currently live in Japan, where ironically I feel far more free to express myself than I ever did in my home of New Zealand (and I have heard similar from other ex-pats). The reason is that Japanese society and culture places social harmony and communal rights above individuals, meaning that although self expression is limited to certain spaces, there is very little restriction on that expression in those spaces. This socio-cultural norm is internalised in Japanese people from an early age, and as a result, children can walk to school alone at 5 years old, you can buy and drink alcohol practically anywhere at anytime (buses, parks, beaches), and you can leave valuable items unattended for hours without fear of them being stolen. Small businesses in Japan are often infinitely more interesting and unique than back home, because the owners often combine a variety of ecletic interests into a highly specialised space. Japan famously has extreme and thriving sub-communities which are generally respected and left to express themselves.

Don't get me wrong, the extreme social control and blantant disregard for rights in some eastern societies is abhorrent. Even in Japan, the pendulum often swings too far and the over-arching submission to social harmony can become frustrating or even opressive. Personally, for example, I have discovered I need to make Japanese people extremely comfortable before they will dare to express anything approaching an opinion. However, the point is, I feel that treating these as binary options for how we live our lives and exist in the world is dishonest.

Put into practicality, playing games and watching anime, wearing your hair a certain way, dressing how you like are generally forms of expression with little or no impact on social harmony; screaming and acting 'wild', swearing with people who may be offended, and generally being disruptive can all be very detrimental to social harmony and if you are asserting that you should be able to express yourself freely in that way irregardless of how others feel, then, yes, I would say thats arrogant.

Hopefully that helps in some way,

T

Hey rangerQ,

 

Bear with me, somewhat rambling analysis follows. Also, totally just opinion.

 

In my opinion, the paramountcy of freedom of expression and individual rights over social harmony and communal rights in western societies is fairly arrogant and often expressed from a position of superiority. This is what you do when you choose to disregard or ignore social norms - you are saying 'my right to express myself is more important than your right to feel safe/comfortable'. It should be immediately clear that this shouldn't be axiomatic - sometimes social harmony is more important. Some people here have suggested that 'as long as your not doing anything illegal, its fine' - the law is structured to restrict freedom where necessary for social harmony. However, the law is also an expression of the primacy of rights in our society, and only act as a barrier to the most extreme and destructive expressions. I would suggest that instead, we should evaluate our actions for equanimity between expression and harmony, our individual rights and our duty to our communities.

 

I currently live in Japan, where ironically I feel far more free to express myself than I ever did in my home of New Zealand (and I have heard similar from other ex-pats). The reason is that Japanese society and culture places social harmony and communal rights above individuals, meaning that although self expression is limited to certain spaces, there is very little restriction on that expression in those spaces. This socio-cultural norm is internalised in Japanese people from an early age, and as a result, children can walk to school alone at 5 years old, you can buy and drink alcohol practically anywhere at anytime (buses, parks, beaches), and you can leave valuable items unattended for hours without fear of them being stolen. Small businesses in Japan are often infinitely more interesting and unique than back home, because the owners often combine a variety of ecletic interests into a highly specialised space. Japan famously has extreme and thriving sub-communities which are generally respected and left to express themselves.

 

Don't get me wrong, the extreme social control and blantant disregard for rights in some eastern societies is abhorrent. Even in Japan, the pendulum often swings too far and the over-arching submission to social harmony can become frustrating or even opressive. Personally, for example, I have discovered I need to make Japanese people extremely comfortable before they will dare to express anything approaching an opinion. However, the point is, I feel that treating these as binary options for how we live our lives and exist in the world is dishonest.

 

Put into practicality, playing games and watching anime, wearing your hair a certain way, dressing how you like are generally forms of expression with little or no impact on social harmony; screaming and acting 'wild', swearing with people who may be offended, and generally being disruptive can all be very detrimental to social harmony and if you are asserting that you should be able to express yourself freely in that way irregardless of how others feel, then, yes, I would say thats arrogant.

 

Hopefully that helps in some way,

 

T

Very enlightening.

I disagree with a little but you were just painting the viewpoint so it isn't your points I disagree with necessarily, but I guess I weigh priorities differently.

To the OP.

So the idea of a social structure where you go with the herd (blindly) is kind of abhorrent to me.

But you don't know everyone motivation so you cannot make assumptions about why people are succumbing to social structure.

But I also don't see the point in acting a certain way just to act the same as everyone else, unless there is a valid reason, like the rules of the road.

If you don't conform to traffic structure you will be putting yourself and others in danger.

But I don't conform to many things that I see as unacceptable. Such as religion. In my area heavily socially pressured.

In fact many ideas about gender roles and xenophobic ideas are predominately propagated why teaching the regional population to "stick to the norms".

Woman's and racial suffrage only took place because people refused to conform to what society dictated was normal.

I am a 30 yo husband and father. I love manga and anime, I love all sorts of games, I am replaying the old Baldur's Gate series now.

I don't feel the need to attire myself differently to express myself, like with hairstyle or clothes, but I revel in my difference from the crowd.

But I don't really even attract conforming people as friends so most all my friends are like minded individuals.

But also you need to recognize that if you want to show your differences, there will be consequences for your actions.

That might be being kicked out of your group of friends because they don't like the attention you draw, and that is totally fine. After all, they are just doing what they want too.

You can't act the way you wish then critize people for acting the way they wish.

I would describe your examples as being “socially awkward”.

It’s fine not to conform to social norms as long as you understand the purpose of social norms.

Social norms exist as kind of an agreed-upon set of behaviors that are least offensive. They give people an idea of what to expect and make people feel comfortable. An extreme example of this is the royal family. They have all sorts of rules that they follow. They follow them to demonstrate education and class. They are designed to offend the least number of people.

The other extreme of this is the punk rock movement. They completely shun social norms. But they also have a “don’t care” attitude and are not worried about making people uncomfortable and being shunned by society in return.

If you want to shun social norms that’s fine - but you also can’t complain if people don’t like you or don’t invite you to things or shun you. You can’t have it both ways.

... but as others have said, it’s all about finding the right group for you. In reality, each group has it’s own set of social norms. If you aren’t “punk-ish” enough, you won’t fit with the punks. If you aren’t “geek-y” enough, you won’t fit with the geeks.

You do you - just understand why that is if people feel uncomfortable.

I got lost in all the abstractions. What, exactly, was the argument about?

It makes no sense to defend private behaviors that don't impact anyone else. But if you're arguing about public behavior, then consider how important the relationship is to you.

All relationships are voluntary. People won't stick around if our behavior embarrasses or annoys them. We balance our own preferences with respect that encourages people to stay friends with us. If you don't want to do that, you don't have to, but you also won't keep your friends.

Conformity is not all or nothing deal. Your private choices are a private matter, and your behavior with others will either encourage them or discourage them from staying in your life.

You get to pick.