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Confused about what happened - feedback welcome


Waraqqa

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As the title suggests, I am trying to sort smth in my head.

 

I have an old friend/former lover, whom I occasionally (rather unpredictably) see if we geographically coincide.

 

Several days ago I was on a trip to his current town again. After my meetings and things I had to do there, we met up and he took me for a dinner. He had warned me before the trip that he is still feeling very attracted and that if we meet, he will likely try to kiss me etc. We kind of joked about it. I wasn't up for a one-night thing, but I wanted to see him, talk and laugh as we used to, catch up; have a hug, let him hold my hand. And the fact of his frank admission of attraction made me feel warm and flattered. Ten years ago we had a 2-3 week fling, and it was very passionate. Actually, he used to love me, not just lust - at least back then.

 

After dinner, he came up to my hotel room. Then very quickly he started pulling me towards him. I tried to slow things down and just give him a hug and catch up on our news or talk. But things became horizontal. I gave in, and kissed him back. Then it went further, to the second base. After some resistance, again I gave in and enjoyed it. Then it started going further, and I didn't want to go any further (even though he said we won't have sex). And we didn't. But his hand kept going further than I wanted, into my underpants, and I didn't want it and tried to fight him off. Then it hit me - 10 years ago, we used to wrestle playfully, maybe he thinks that's what we were doing now, and that's why keeps going despite my pushing him away? So, then I verbally said "No". Several times, repeatedly, I said "no". He kept going until his fingers were inside my underpants and fingering me. I tried to push him off but couldn't - he got stronger over the years, and the gravity was working against me. I pushed as hard as I could, but was helpless.

When he had enough, he rolled over. Then asked me to talk to him. I said that it was not right to ignore my "no". He said sorry and started getting dressed.

 

I don't know what to make of it now. I feel things that go in the opposite directions. On the one hand, he is someone who loved me a lot in the past (even though back then I wasn't nice to him), but he was my good friend for all that time and distance, and helped, and I had looked up to him. There is the trusted friend component; and also the hot lover component. My body remembered him, and I did get aroused in the process of what happened this recent night. I am very aroused right now just thinking about it, remembering his touch on my body.

 

On the other hand, I'm not fully able to enjoy this memory, because when I remember telling him "no" and him ignoring it, I feel angry and pissed - I wanted to enjoy whatever happened at my speed, on my terms, with *my consent*. Plus, there is the element of his image now - I don't know how to think of him after this. Like I said, I used to look up to him and liked him a lot, and now that image feels weird.

 

To what extent is it normal what happened? Was there smth I did wrong? I probably shouldn't have allowed him to come up. But last year I allowed him, and we ended up just talking and catching up. He gave me a lovely hug, and when he tried kissing me, I simply pushed him away and that was that. It was still a nice time with our talks and jokes.

But this time around... I know I was "warned", but I had thought that his warning of the attraction meant that he'd try to make a move, not that he'd force it. And again, in the past we enjoyed our kinkish wrestling, maybe that's what he thought it was? But what about my "no" then? Should I have said smth else? I hadn't expected such a turn of events.

 

It's like one part of me is hot for him, and the other one is pissed at him. I don't know how to feel or what to think.

 

Opinions welcome. Thanks in advance.

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Well, if you're asking whether you were sexually assaulted or not, I don't know. It's kind of a dangerous game for adults to play. You were going to let him touch your breasts but not finger you. He fingered you but he didn't go all the way. You liked it but you're only mad he didn't stop when you commanded him to stop. It doesn't sound like you were actually harmed by the event. I'm wondering why you just don't sleep with him. You guys are hot for each other. Otherwise, meet in a public place and don't go up to his room in the future.

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This is really hard for us to judge because we weren't there, we can't read your body language. I'm betting it was inviting and flirtatious, but that's just a guess.

 

But you went to dinner, brought him to your hotel room, and, by your own admission, failed to maintain your boundaries TWICE (kissing him, then "ending up horizontal"). If I were in his shoes, that sure looks like a green light to me. If you don't want things to go this direction, don't put yourself in that situation. Or at least tell him outright "I don't want to have sex, I want to spend a romantic evening together, nothing else."

 

You definitely sent mixed signals, so it's hard for me to fault the guy. No way in he|| would I use the word "assault".

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I'd definitely not use the word "assault", I don't feel it belongs here given the context. And that makes me feel better, b/c like I said, I've liked this person for a long time and would hate to have to think of him badly.

 

Having said that, I did say "no" several times. Whatever other signals or body language, when a person is repeatedly saying "no", wouldn't that be a reason to stop - or at least to loosen the grip/pause to see what it's about?

Maybe it was too late, as by then he was too far in the thralls of passion or something...

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I'd definitely not use the word "assault", I don't feel it belongs here given the context. And that makes me feel better, b/c like I said, I've liked this person for a long time and would hate to have to think of him badly.

 

Having said that, I did say "no" several times. Whatever other signals or body language, when a person is repeatedly saying "no", wouldn't that be a reason to stop - or at least to loosen the grip/pause to see what it's about?

Maybe it was too late, as by then he was too far in the thralls of passion or something...

 

Honestly, even though in theory a man should just switch off like a light switch and stop instantly.....reality doesn't function that way. You were both playing with fire, the chemistry is there, you were crossing your own boundaries and you were turned on and no doubt so was he. He did actually stop and leave abruptly, which was wise as obviously he wanted more and the whole thing was already extremely confusing as to what you want, don't want, and what the heck is up with you. I would bet that he is feeling pretty uncomfortable and confused as well.

 

I do think that you sent an awful lot of mixed signals and that created a lot confusion for you both.

 

Going forward, maybe just stick to simple rules like if you just want a friendly chat, don't invite the guy to your hotel room, especially after he has already declared his desire for more than chatting. You were actually giving him a green light by that act alone that you are open to more than just chit chat, especially in the light of what he has said about his own desires. To make it very simple, he basically said, "I'm dying to sleep with you" and your response was "come up to my room"........

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No might mean no --- however, you have to make good choices, too! If i told a man that i was going to kiss him or not be able to keep my hands off of him when i saw him and he invited me up to his room to sit on his bed, i would take it as a very good indication that he was very welcome to my advances.

 

This man was very clear upfront that he was strongly attracted to you, that when he saw you he would kiss you, etc, and you have been hot and heavy in the past.

 

With this knowledge, instead of shutting him down before you went and said "that's all water under the bridge. I want to catch up as friends only", you wanted to see him because you wanted to feel flattered and desired. So that's okay -- but KNOWING this man felt this way - why would you have invited him to your hotel room instead of ending the night with ice cream sundaes and an invite to see eachother tomorrow?

 

I think this is a call to be very clear about what you want and not send mixed messages. He didn't go all the way with you like he promised as well -- you established that boundary ahead of time and he abided or he told you he wouldn't and he stuck with it.

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Maybe it was too late, as by then he was too far in the thralls of passion or something...

 

But you were, too.

And if your little game years ago was play wrestling/resisting was part of your sexual play -- he would have no idea that even though you said "yes" in your actions, no really meant no this time.

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I would bet that he is feeling pretty uncomfortable and confused as well.

 

Thankfully, he shouldn't be too uncomfortable. In the immediate aftermath, I expressed my upsetness that he should've stopped when I said "no", but after he left I thanked him for the evening, he replied "thanks for being *the* gentleman" - meaning thanking me that I didn't let it go to intercourse. (prior to my arrival, we said on text that since he said he can't promise to be a gentleman, I'd have to be one).

 

Going forward, maybe just stick to simple rules like if you just want a friendly chat, don't invite the guy to your hotel room, especially after he has already declared his desire for more than chatting.

 

Going forward, this seems reasonable for most people. But with my previous guy I had a problem, b/c with him I was the one having such difficulties, but he used to get offended if I didn't invite him to hang out at my place, as if I was "unfriendly". That previous guy actually would've stopped even at half of a "no" (he was very good at restraint despite his attraction), even if I were wearing the tiniest miniskirt or whatever.

But you see, people are different. I tend to go on the previous "lessons", and then a new situation turns out completely different. Just because they are "men", it doesn't seem they are the same.

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Going forward, this seems reasonable for most people. But with my previous guy I had a problem, b/c with him I was the one having such difficulties, but he used to get offended if I didn't invite him to hang out at my place, as if I was "unfriendly". That previous guy actually would've stopped even at half of a "no" (he was very good at restraint despite his attraction), even if I were wearing the tiniest miniskirt or whatever.

But you see, people are different. I tend to go on the previous "lessons", and then a new situation turns out completely different. Just because they are "men", it doesn't seem they are the same.

 

^That is actually pretty messed up and incredibly manipulative of him and he clearly got to you. Please don't ever let anyone manipulate your better judgment ever again. YOU set the rules of engagement and if the guy doesn't like it, he can take a long hike..... He absolutely doesn't need to be a part of your life. What you describe is emotional blackmail and frankly dangerous.....

 

Once again, unless you actually intend to sleep with the guy, then you do not put yourself in a position where this can occur or worse, where your actions can be interpreted as an invitation and a green light. You always always always set the rules. Btw, I'm not implying that men are out of control animals. Not at all. 99.9999% of the time you will be safe, he will quit, etc, etc, etc. However, it only takes one time, one misjudgment for you to get scarred for life. Don't play with fire because eventually you will get burned by someone. If I recall correctly, most rapes aren't from some random man attacking a woman, it happens more like your situation - friends, friends with benefits, etc. Among people who know each other, maybe they've played around a bit in the past, etc. One day things go too far. So again don't play with fire. If you aren't interested in sleeping with the guy, don't put yourself in a situation where things can happen. Ultimately you need to take care of you and your own safety and well being. Can't place that stuff in someone else's hands and then hope they do the right thing....even when most people will. Like I said, takes only one to mess you up for life.

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I suggest if you're going to go along with his advances and then suddenly put a stop to them as a habit, that you agree on a "safe" word that he will understand without a doubt means you do not want to go further. E.g. When you say "coconut" (insert your agreed upon word here) then he knows you mean NO.

 

In our day, what you did Op we used to call being a C*** Tease. Now a days of Harvey Weinstein-esk sexual harassment, it's not politically correct to blame the one saying "no" no matter how far he may have been led to believe it was a go... as such, the least you and this guy should do is make it clear what YOU want or don't want. A resounding "NO" (NOT an ambiguous "no" said breathily - not that you said it that way, just saying) followed by "Coconut" should make it clear to him

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I suggest if you're going to go along with his advances and then suddenly put a stop to them as a habit, that you agree on a "safe" word that he will understand without a doubt means you do not want to go further. E.g. When you say "coconut" (insert your agreed upon word here) then he knows you mean NO.

 

In our day, what you did Op we used to call being a C*** Tease. Now a days of Harvey Weinstein-esk sexual harassment, it's not politically correct to blame the one saying "no" no matter how far he may have been led to believe it was a go... as such, the least you and this guy should do is make it clear what YOU want or don't want. A resounding "NO" (NOT an ambiguous "no" said breathily - not that you said it that way, just saying) followed by "Coconut" should make it clear to him

 

And its talked about AHEAD OF TIME - not in the heat of the moment. Its prearranged.

 

But seriously, if you don't want sex, don't invite a guy to your hotel room who has clearly stated his intentions with you before even meeting. I agree, that's being a tease if he tells you how attracted he is and wants to get physical, and then you invite him to your room.... There are many other areas in the hotel where you can "just talk" and areas not at the hotel. I am confused with what you want with this guy -- you have hooked up in the past and you want to make him into a friend? or are you looking for an ego boost? No wonder guys are so confused these days

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No wonder guys are so confused these days
Look... if a guy is educated that NO means NO and that a woman drunk or blacked out is incapable of giving consent then he assumes her response would be a NO rather then to just go ahead and take advantage.. they would NOT nor NEVER be confused. Sorry but relenting why guys may be 'confused' is typical rape culture rhetoric.
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And its talked about AHEAD OF TIME - not in the heat of the moment. Its prearranged.

 

But seriously, if you don't want sex, don't invite a guy to your hotel room who has clearly stated his intentions with you before even meeting. I agree, that's being a tease if he tells you how attracted he is and wants to get physical, and then you invite him to your room....

 

I am confused with what you want with this guy -- you have hooked up in the past and you want to make him into a friend? or are you looking for an ego boost? No wonder guys are so confused these days

 

Look, he didn't want to have sex with me, either, he said it wasn't going to happen. (due to his cultural/family situation/kids from previous marriage etc he swore off women). He did warn me that I was not safe with him this time around (with cute winking smiley emoticons) -> so the safety issue I didn't think to take it literally. I just knew that he was going to try to kiss me. He said it was a torture to be around me and not kiss me. So, in my head that was as far as it would go; *maybe* some further messing around. He did say that despite swearing off women, he'd gladly kiss me "if I was going to allow him". Hence, I knew he'd try to kiss me, but I was not ready for the sudden onslaught of things as it happened.

 

I'm not defending myself, I now see tht I should've said bye at the door, or even not seen him at all. It's just not quite what I had ever anticipated.

 

As for what I had wanted with him... In ideal case scenario (or at least before this night, now I'm not sure), a possibility of a proper dating/relationship. Our geographical distance is not very big, an hour or two flight. But I know it is impossible with his culture and family stuff. He used to think of even marrying me years ago, but gave up on it. When other people are present, he presents me as his "dear old friend". I suppose what I expected that night was kind of a "mild" hookup as some that we had before, when we'd hug, he'd hold my hand, maybe kiss, maybe go further (but not without my consent), and also look at each other and talk, joke and laugh. In contrast, this time I look back and the memory of me helplessly trying to push him away and repeating "no" is so different. I know there is my responsibility in it also, but I feel strange, kind of disappointed, and disempowered compared how we used to be. Also, in the past he'd keep in touch and reach out after, we'd talk on skype etc. I felt I mattered. Now, this happened and that's it. Nothing else. I guess that's what "swearing off women" means? "No woman no cry"?

 

Thanks anyways for all kinds of opinions. It helps to process things and have a frame of reference. Otherwise I'd be lost in my crazy mind.

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Look, he didn't want to have sex with me, either, he said it wasn't going to happen. (due to his cultural/family situation/kids from previous marriage etc he swore off women). He did warn me that I was not safe with him this time around (with cute winking smiley emoticons) -> so the safety issue I didn't think to take it literally. .

 

Here's where you both went wrong ~

You didn't take his warning literally.

And in turn, he didn't take your no literally.

 

Next time. . no playing with fire.

Sounds like a big unspoken misunderstanding.

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==

Also, in the past he'd keep in touch and reach out after, we'd talk on skype etc. I felt I mattered. Now, this happened and that's it. Nothing else. I guess that's what "swearing off women" means? "No woman no cry"?

 

Thanks anyways for all kinds of opinions. It helps to process things and have a frame of reference. Otherwise I'd be lost in my crazy mind.

 

You rejected him, he got up, and he left. This time is different because he felt rejected by you. The other times you had intercourse with him or if not and in a different setting, it ended differently. If you want to talk to him, you need to do the reaching out, I would say.

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Look... if a guy is educated that NO means NO and that a woman drunk or blacked out is incapable of giving consent then he assumes her response would be a NO rather then to just go ahead and take advantage.. they would NOT nor NEVER be confused. Sorry but relenting why guys may be 'confused' is typical rape culture rhetoric.

 

Thanks, ThatwasThen. To be honest, I generally agree with you. Otherwise, what is the point of a 'no'. 'No' has to mean something. The idea of someone using it as a bendable 'maybe' and 'maybe' as a 'yes' sounds like a 50s kind of thing.

 

Having said that, I doubt he willfully decided to ignore it. I think something happened and he just couldn't stop. I remember how last year I tried to kiss me, he was literally shaking. I said no then, and he agreed patiently and went home, nothing happened. - But maybe this time he didn't have the same strength; or the abstinence for a whole year made him more prone and vulnerable now. I'll just be much more careful around him in future (that is, if I meet him in the future).

 

I should've ordered a drink or brought one of those small airplane bottles of whiskey or so. He is a very devout Muslim, and I remember in the past, whenever I wanted to slow things down or was not sure, I'd have some alcohol, and it worked like garlic on a vampire. How could I have forgotten and not thought of that!..

 

It is ironic, with most men drinking would be the more dangerous option of the two. Here, I kick myself for NOT having drunk.

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Thanks, ThatwasThen. To be honest, I generally agree with you. Otherwise, what is the point of a 'no'. 'No' has to mean something. The idea of someone using it as a bendable 'maybe' and 'maybe' as a 'yes' sounds like a 50s kind of thing.

 

Having said that, I doubt he willfully decided to ignore it. I think something happened and he just couldn't stop. I remember how last year I tried to kiss me, he was literally shaking. I said no then, and he agreed patiently and went home, nothing happened. - But maybe this time he didn't have the same strength; or the abstinence for a whole year made him more prone and vulnerable now. I'll just be much more careful around him in future (that is, if I meet him in the future).

 

I should've ordered a drink or brought one of those small airplane bottles of whiskey or so. He is a very devout Muslim, and I remember in the past, whenever I wanted to slow things down or was not sure, I'd have some alcohol, and it worked like garlic on a vampire. How could I have forgotten and not thought of that!..

 

It is ironic, with most men drinking would be the more dangerous option of the two. Here, I kick myself for NOT having drunk.

 

But you don't need to put on "man repellent". Taking him up to your room when you KNEW he was hot for you and wanted his hands on you was what was not needed here. I don't think "he didn't have the same strength to be abstinent" -- it was that you were sending him mixed messages big time -- inviting him to your room, getting "into it" yourself, etc. and the fact that you tend to meet up for a rendezvous here and there. I think going forward, you have to be CLEAR about what you want - before you meet up - and in your head AND verbally. i think you yourself were not clear inside what you wanted - because you LIKED the idea of him wanting you before you actually met up. If you are clear about what you want -- and follow through - this wouldn't have been a situation. You would have either not led him on at all because you didn't want sex and would have parted at the ice cream place or bar or cafe as friends. Or you would have just went with it and not felt guilty about it. But either way -- it would have been absolutely what you had wanted.

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To me it all depends on how long you said no for.

 

As a guy with a blood deficient brain it could take a good 15s to comprehend what your are saying. If you said it over the course of like a minute then I would think he was just ignoring you though.

 

It is hard to objectively assess time when I'm aroused so it might not have been over a very long time that you said no.

 

Just a different opinion...

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It doesn't matter. I just *tried* talking to him. After my first text, "could we talk some time", he immediately said that he doesn't want to keep in touch anymore b/c of trying to stay away from women in general. So, basically, he now cut me off completely

 

I should've kept my ears open and taken it more seriously when he talked about swearing off women to begin with. I was so stupid to continue behaving as before and feeling so stupidly flattered by his desire which is not the love how it used to be

 

Endlessly sad.

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It doesn't matter. I just *tried* talking to him. After my first text, "could we talk some time", he immediately said that he doesn't want to keep in touch anymore b/c of trying to stay away from women in general. So, basically, he now cut me off completely

 

I should've kept my ears open and taken it more seriously when he talked about swearing off women to begin with. I was so stupid to continue behaving as before and feeling so stupidly flattered by his desire which is not the love how it used to be

 

Endlessly sad.

Don't be so hard on yourself. His intense all or nothing attitude suggests there is more going on with him then he admits to.

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You really shouldn't be hard on yourself. It happens sometimes.

 

I can see a guy not wanting to get involved with a person after an incident like that. I personally would probably stop anything from happening again too.

 

Sometimes the situation just breaks the connection.

 

It's true. Well, getting involved was never an option to begin with - he was serious about staying single even before this event, and made it clear. He has too many other variables in life now.

 

At first, I was so pissed at him for the forceful part. Now, I am just sad for having gone with things and then making him feel bad. He probably got freaked out by his own intensity.

 

And I regret what I said to him: about forcefulness and having blamed him, and that he took what he wanted and then threw me away. It was like blaming an alcoholic after putting wine in front of him.

 

I wish I could do or say smth to make him feel better. We anyway couldn't be together; at least I should've let it end more gracefully and with less blame.

He doesn't want to be in touch.

 

After tonight's confrontation and brief fight, my last text was:

"Thanks for talk, I understand better now. I don't blame. Sorry for losing my cool (and for leading you astray if that was the case). I wish you well, and have a good life".

 

Do you guys think it's fine? It's too late, but don't want him to feel bad anymore.

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It may seem like a stupid "high school" observation, but I just saw that he unfriended me on FB also. It hurts right in the stomach. 10 years we knew each other. We had passion, friendship, romance, bitter fights, talks and laughs, and supported each other when going through tough times or if one of us had a break-up with someone else. Now it's all over because of one strange night.

 

I need to do something with myself to not allow such stuff to happen ever again.

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