Has anyone Gladwell's "Outliers"? Its discussion of intelligence is interesting

My girlfriend is reading Gladwell's book "Outliers". She basically discusses with me anything interesting she comes across. A section in "Outlier" discusses a concept called analytical intelligence and practical intelligence. It's accompanied with stories of two clearly intelligent men with very different lives. One is quite successful and capable of getting himself out of trouble and into good situations.

The other is barely able to complete college because he doesn't have a working vehicle and can't convince the college administration to cut him slack if he's late.

This section of the book then introduces some research and a theory as to why these two men with high IQs may have had two very different lives. First of all the gentleman who struggled to attend classes was rather poor with a chaotic home life as well. Research states:

"Lareau [the researcher] calls the middle class parenting style 'concerted cultivation'. It's an attempt to actively foster and assess a child's talents, opinions and skills. By contrast, poor parents see as their responsibility to care for their children but to let them grow and develop on their own."

"The middle class parents talked things through with their children expecting their children to discuss things with them, to negotiate, to question. They intervened on behalf of their children in school and petitioned for their children to be admitted into gifted and talented programs. The poor parents, by contrast, are intimidated by authority. They react passively and stay in the background."

With that research in mind, Gladwell suggests that this type of experience as a child leads to "practical intelligence". Basically the ability to negotiate, pursue your own interests and convince others to support your interests.

"...even in fourth graders, middle class children appeared to be acting on their own behalf to gain advantages because they had be raised to believe their opinions mattered. They made requests of teachers and their parents to accommodate their desires. Poorer children didn't know how to 'customize' whatever environment they were in for their purposes"

So the poorer, highly intelligent man struggled professionally possibly because he never understood how to convince, negotiate, and pursue his needs in regular life through communication and socialization.

I personally would imagine that he didn't know what he didn't know.

Regarding the "successful", highly intelligent man: he once tried to poison a professor at his college. He was able to successfully talk himself out of that mess with little consequence.

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She came across this book incidentally but it was evident that this issue discussed above relates to me and my family. I grew up poor as did most of my immediate family. I suspect I struggle almost exactly with the concept addressed above.

Has anyone else read this book? I'm interested in hearing your opinions of these concepts and issues. Do you relate to it in some way? If you grew up poor and relate to the concepts, were you able to change the way you communicate or deal with others?

IMO, Oscuro, it is never "either or".

There can be chaotic (very) home lives in the middle class sector as well, and some very stable homes in the lower socio-economic groups.

Some middle-class or indeed upper class parents are neither supportive nor helpful to their children, less so talk things through with them. And there are also middle-class people intimidated by authority.

The one cap does not fit everyone.

The book goes into more detail however it's not trying to suggest that it's black and white. Rather it's pointing to a series of studies that show certain results occurring more often under certain conditions. Specifically it was observed that poorer parents handled their children differently than middle-class parents more often. It was then deduced that this different treatment produced children that handled scenarios differently.

While I believe that the concept has merit, it's better used to encourage parents and future parents to teach their kids how to thrive rather than for grown adults to blame their parents for any shortcomings, which they can instead focus on overcoming today.

Throughout the centuries there's never been a level playing field. Those of us who've been dealt provincial or checked-out parents have always needed to reach for resilience, creativity and self respect in order to lift ourselves above whichever bars we want to set for ourselves. Some early advantages have always been in play for some kids, while others have needed to create their own advantages. That's a learning process that continues throughout our lifetimes if we step up and make it happen. That's the good news.

Head high.

I'd also want to know in those groups who was the primary caregiver for the child -was it a nanny? A grandparent? A relative (often in poorer families the grandparents have to pitch in a great deal and often in middle class families you have two working parents and a nanny/daycare/patchwork of other almost full time caregivers).

I'd also want to know in those groups who was the primary caregiver for the child -was it a nanny? A grandparent? A relative (often in poorer families the grandparents have to pitch in a great deal and often in middle class families you have two working parents and a nanny/daycare/patchwork of other almost full time caregivers).

Interesting point. When my girlfriend explained this portion of the book to me (which was completely incidental because neither of us thought the book contained any issues that may relate to my personal experience) I was curious about my upbringing. Because my mother couldn't afford a babysitter I was essentially a "latchkey kid" for all of my youth until my teen years. However it's clear that in some families there may be other family members who participate in the caregiving.

So in that respect I had to learn to take care of myself which I presumed was very useful but as I get older I've realized I've lacked some social skills that some of my peers have. I never assumed to know WHY I lacked those social skills. I've had to learn them as an adult. This theory from this book is intriguing in that regard.

While I believe that the concept has merit, it's better used to encourage parents and future parents to teach their kids how to thrive rather than for grown adults to blame their parents for any shortcomings, which they can instead focus on overcoming today.

 

Throughout the centuries there's never been a level playing field. Those of us who've been dealt provincial or checked-out parents have always needed to reach for resilience, creativity and self respect in order to lift ourselves above whichever bars we want to set for ourselves. Some early advantages have always been in play for some kids, while others have needed to create their own advantages. That's a learning process that continues throughout our lifetimes if we step up and make it happen. That's the good news.

 

Head high.

To my understanding the book doesn't try to pass judgement either way. When listening to the concept explained to me, I immediately thought of the president of U.S--a person who was heavily guided by his father and clearly taught that the world should/would conform to his needs, desires, and impulses. In other words that guy represents one extreme end. An extreme end that has produced an awful human being. On the other end of that spectrum I imagine a meek, weak-willed person, unable to stand up for him or herself; unable to assert him or herself in their every day life.

I imagine there's a place in the middle where a parent can guide the child and teach the child to find ways fulfill their needs/wants in the face of authority. While sometimes allowing the child to be alone and independent.

To my understanding the book doesn't try to pass judgement either way. When listening to the concept explained to me, I immediately thought of the president of U.S--a person who was heavily guided by his father and clearly taught that the world should/would conform to his needs, desires, and impulses. In other words that guy represents one extreme end. An extreme end that has produced an awful human being. On the other end of that spectrum I imagine a meek, weak-willed person, unable to stand up for him or herself; unable to assert him or herself in their every day life.

 

I imagine there's a place in the middle where a parent can guide the child and teach the child to find ways fulfill their needs/wants in the face of authority. While sometimes allowing the child to be alone and independent.

I never, ever believed -and still don't believe, as a parent, that adults are shaped by their upbringings to the extent you write above. Adults make their own choices in every way - putting aside extreme situations of course - I really get tired of the "blame the parents" thing and I felt this way long before I became a parent. And yes, I understand that what I tell my child is 100 times louder and more intense to him than if anyone else says it so I do my best to be careful when it comes to his self confidence, resilience, compassion, world outlook. And that he watches closely how I interact with others. I will say that he has always been particularly thoughtful and empathetic beyond his years and honestly while I foster that I truly believe that in large part he was born that way.

I never, ever believed -and still don't believe, as a parent, that adults are shaped by their upbringings to the extent you write above. Adults make their own choices in every way - putting aside extreme situations of course - I really get tired of the "blame the parents" thing and I felt this way long before I became a parent. And yes, I understand that what I tell my child is 100 times louder and more intense to him than if anyone else says it so I do my best to be careful when it comes to his self confidence, resilience, compassion, world outlook. And that he watches closely how I interact with others. I will say that he has always been particularly thoughtful and empathetic beyond his years and honestly while I foster that I truly believe that in large part he was born that way.

It sounds like the reason you don't believe early childhood development has an impact on the minds of children as they become adults is because you think it has something to do with "blaming". In a sense "blame" is probably a judgement. "Blaming" is a matter of placing sole responsibility upon a source. However once you really get into issues of psychology and sociology, then you're effectively talking about so many complex factors that there is really no one responsible source.

Pointing out potential evidence that certain upbringings of kids has certain results doesn't inherently mean a parent is to blame. That parent is dealing with other complex factors that may influence their decisions and options.

However IF you don't believe a child becomes the sort of adult they are partly as a result of their early upbringing then okay. If you are interested in learning more about the subject I can point you towards amazing papers on the topic of childhood development and how important it is.

It sounds like the reason you don't believe early childhood development has an impact on the minds of children as they become adults is because you think it has something to do with "blaming". In a sense "blame" is probably a judgement. "Blaming" is a matter of placing sole responsibility upon a source. However once you really get into issues of psychology and sociology, then you're effectively talking about so many complex factors that there is really no one responsible source.

 

Pointing out potential evidence that certain upbringings of kids has certain results doesn't inherently mean a parent is to blame. That parent is dealing with other complex factors that may influence their decisions and options.

 

However you don't believe a child becomes the sort of adult they are partly as a result of their early upbringing then okay. If you are interested in learning more about the subject I can point you towards amazing papers on the topic of early childhood development and how important it is.

Not at all what I wrote or why I wrote it. In fact I agree that it is partly -just not to the extent you describe it. I studied early childhood development, was a teacher/nanny/worked with children for many years in several different capacities -and I have a young child - so, no thanks, I'm good. I agree early childhood development is extremely important.

This, again is what I wrote; I never, ever believed -and still don't believe, as a parent, that adults are shaped by their upbringings to the extent you write above. Adults make their own choices in every way - putting aside extreme situations of course

(and separately I don't like people using their upbringing as excuses to a large extent for choices made as an adult)

Not at all what I wrote or why I wrote it. In fact I agree that it is partly -just not to the extent you describe it. I studied early childhood development, was a teacher/nanny/worked with children for many years in several different capacities -and I have a young child - so, no thanks, I'm good. I agree early childhood development is extremely important.

 

This, again is what I wrote; I never, ever believed -and still don't believe, as a parent, that adults are shaped by their upbringings to the extent you write above. Adults make their own choices in every way - putting aside extreme situations of course

 

(and separately I don't like people using their upbringing as excuses to a large extent for choices made as an adult)

People do often have this idea that to recognize the influence environment and upbringing has on a person means you absolve self-responsibility. That might explain why you're using the word "blame". Any average adult is living with a mindset deeply influenced or impacted by their upbringing. Fortunate adults engage in some practice of self-reflection in order to recognize how they think; why they may think that way; and what may have influenced them.

The "extent" of which I describe this influence in my original post is just my attempt to explain what this book claims which I do find shocking, interesting, and unsettling. I'm not trying to claim it as fact but I am strongly moved by the amount of individual cases they studied. Then on an individual level I feel like I relate to what it is describing or at the very least I've observed what the book describes in my own family and life.

Well, I would not in many ways describe my upbringing of severe child abuse fortunate. However I do have great self awareness . But that is mostly of my own making . Despite the environment in which I grew up I am above average probably in intelligence and I did choose to make a better situation for myself by getting therapy and help and creating 1000 times better environment for my own child . I guess in that way I could be called fortunate .

I was also fortunate to have what I consider to be an exceptional mother even though she made some very vital horrendous mistakes at times . She did give me some things that were exceptionally vital . She taught me what loyalty was ,she taught me what persistence and endurance were . She taught me to be honest, trustworthy hard-working . All things I could have never learned from my father .

So it is part nurture ,part environment ,part genetic and part free will .

Well, I would not in many ways describe my upbringing of severe child abuse fortunate. However I do have great self awareness . But that is mostly of my own making . Despite the environment in which I grew up I am above average probably in intelligence and I did choose to make a better situation for myself by getting therapy and help and creating 1000 times better environment for my own child . I guess in that way I could be called fortunate .

 

I was also fortunate to have what I consider to be an exceptional mother even though she made some very vital horrendous mistakes at times . She did give me some things that were exceptionally vital . She taught me what loyalty was ,she taught me what persistence and endurance were . She taught me to be honest, trustworthy hard-working . All things I could have never learned from my father .

 

So it is part nurture ,part environment ,part genetic and part free will .

I think you're also describing what I may have experienced. Self awareness. Not sure how your process was but in order to deal a bit from whatever I may have been dealing with I had to do that hard work of looking at myself in order to understand why I have certain feelings. I wonder if your experience was similar but eventually I realized that I needed to choose the emotional response I want to situations or details I may not have liked. In other words I had to ask whether I want to be angry, sad, or resentful about something. I had to ask myself whether I want to continue owning a feeling that may cause me to feel pain for years to come. Eventually I had to make what was a practical decision: I don't want to feel pain and so I need to find resolution to the problem in my mind.

That was self-awareness to me.

In response to Batya33, I don't think reflecting on how strange environmental factors that define a person is antithetical to magic of taking ownership of one's thoughts, feelings, and decisions.

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The book in question made me wonder about the meekness that is ingrained in the culture I am from. My mother is a Mexican immigrant. She is forthright about how her insecurity as a Mexican woman in the United States. She's is almost blunt about how she feels inferior and has made it known to me in the past that she does not like interacting with people she thinks are better than her or hold authority over her (employers, teachers, educated people, people with more money). So with all this knowledge + this book + my own experience it was a blunt hit to the head for me. It was a fascinating set of ideas I needed to reflect on.

What you are saying is interesting. My husband was raised in an emotionally crippling and control freak atmosphere. His parents were EXTREMELY controlling and still try to control him and us by extension even though we are middle aged. He is very meek when it comes to his parents and authority figures. His has a very hard time standing up for himself.

What you say about your mom makes me understand her more though .

What you are saying is interesting. My husband was raised in an emotionally crippling and control freak atmosphere. His parents were EXTREMELY controlling and still try to control him and us by extension even though we are middle aged. He is very meek when it comes to his parents and authority figures. His has a very hard time standing up for himself.

 

What you say about your mom makes me understand her more though .

Meekness. Yeah.

I don't want to say that I fully understand WHY I am also perceived as meek. Is just due to my mother? Not entirely. Due to my cultural upbringing... probably. Due other things? Maybe.

Part of the reason the book struck me is because my girlfriend: she certainly cares about me. She is concerned/confused as to why I am meek. She sees me as awesome (for some reason). I don't. I just don't. However all my life people have questioned why I don't carry myself with more confidence. As I got older I've certainly wondered the same. So this book described the possibility that poverty plays a role. I'll skip my personal stories relating to that but it shouldn't be hard to imagine a young person feeling insecure about their place in the world when it comes to those issues. Since I am an adult now I do see it as my responsibility to shed those insecurities. I may not have been aware as to how much such concerns may have bothered me. Chances are they do.

My husband was not poor. His parents are upper middle class but don't act it. However they were raised in war ravaged Europe so they were greatly impacted by that even though they deny it . They are singularly not self aware and their childhood and upbringing greatly impacted how they raised their kids. They did not do it out of maliciousness but lack of self awareness. They just feel they " know better" and we are the "kids "even though we are 50 years old.

I too think my husband is an awesome person. He has so many fabulous, qualities . And he has been working in therapy for at least a decade on and off to sort out his issues . So that he will not repeat his parent's pattern on his own son.

"In response to Batya33, I don't think reflecting on how strange environmental factors that define a person is antithetical to magic of taking ownership of one's thoughts, feelings, and decisions."

Completely agree. You are taking what I wrote to extremes, and I attempted to dispel you of that interpretation. Looks like I wasn't successful. Interesting discussion.

Just remember too we can be very self-aware but we will all make mistakes as parents and we will all repeat our parent's patterns to some capacity.

Just remember too we can be very self-aware but we will all make mistakes as parents and we will all repeat our parent's patterns to some capacity.

I do not agree we all repeat. I do agree that we probably all are tempted to repeat or catch ourselves wanting to -but not everyone acts on it or if they do it's short lived if it's a negative pattern.

"In response to Batya33, I don't think reflecting on how strange environmental factors that define a person is antithetical to magic of taking ownership of one's thoughts, feelings, and decisions."

 

Completely agree. You are taking what I wrote to extremes, and I attempted to dispel you of that interpretation. Looks like I wasn't successful. Interesting discussion.

When you used the word blame it seemed as though you interpreted my comments as blaming something (parents) for negative results. I'd like to think of it as recognizing an influence where its results can be negative. Some adults are able to go through some self-awareness journey to work on these deep influences and then some adults don't quite do that. I'm sure you've seen both situations as I have.

When you used the word blame it seemed as though you interpreted my comments as blaming something (parents) for negative results. I'd like to think of it as recognizing an influence where its results can be negative. Some adults are able to go through some self-awareness journey to work on these deep influences and then some adults don't quite do that. I'm sure you've seen both situations as I have.

No, I wasn't referring to you. I know of several (many) people who blame their parents for adult mistakes they make. Most should not be doing so IMO. Some of course should.

I do not agree we all repeat. I do agree that we probably all are tempted to repeat or catch ourselves wanting to -but not everyone acts on it or if they do it's short lived if it's a negative pattern.

There will ALWAYS be some aspect we repeat. Whether it be a small part, a big part ,a good part or a bad part . I can see ways in which my mother is like her mom was and how I am like my mom and now I see my ways in my son.

Take for example my grandmother was an extreme perfectionist when it came to clothing and you could never be dirty ever ever ever ever . my mom used to get a beating if she got anything dirty. When my mom became a mother she still became an extreme perfectionist but left out the hitting because she doesn't believe in hitting. When I became a mother my son had to be dressed absolutely perfectly in there could not a stain anywhere. And now my son almost 20 years old become extremely distressed if anything spills on his clothes.

So something small and innocuous still gets carried no matter what . In someway we are always going to be like our parents and carry-on something .

Just remember too we can be very self-aware but we will all make mistakes as parents and we will all repeat our parent's patterns to some capacity.

I imagine we do. I am not a parent. My girlfriend does not want to be a parent pretty much for that reason. She holds so much pain about her family that she doesn't feel prepared, or interested, in having kids. However I'm 35 now. I can see how parents my age are accidentally doing the same dumb that they may have gone through. It happens.

There will ALWAYS be some aspect we repeat. Whether it be a small part, a big part ,a good part or a bad part . I can see ways in which my mother is like her mom was and how I am like my mom and now I see my ways in my son.

 

Take for example my grandmother was an extreme perfectionist when it came to clothing and you could never be dirty ever ever ever ever . my mom used to get a beating if she got anything dirty. When my mom became a mother she still became an extreme perfectionist but left out the hitting because she doesn't believe in hitting. When I became a mother my son had to be dressed absolutely perfectly in there could not a stain anywhere. And now my son almost 20 years old become extremely distressed if anything spills on his clothes.

 

So something small and innocuous still gets carried no matter what . In someway we are always going to be like our parents and carry-on something .

yes, in small ways - not full blown patterns though - of course there are always those small phrases, mannerisms, etc where you hear your parents talking through your mouth - but full blown patterns -that I think we have a choice to either carry forward, or not, or take parts, etc.

I imagine we do. I am not a parent. My girlfriend does not want to be a parent pretty much for that reason. She holds so much pain about her family that she doesn't feel prepared, or interested, in having kids. However I'm 35 now. I can see how parents my age are accidentally doing the same dumb that they may have gone through. It happens.

Yes, and please realize it's far too easy to make that assumption from the outside looking in. Outside meaning -not because you don't have a child, but because that is not your child and your perspective of and view of the interactions is likely to be far different from the reality behind closed doors- not better or worse -just different.