Struggling with no marriage relationship

Thanks for reading this and any advice

Been with my boyfriend for 3 years living together for one. Day-to-day is very good, good conflict resolution, can't imagine spending my life with anyone else. If this relationship broke down doubt I would bother with any one else after this.

One issue causes friction and that is marriage and firm committment. A lot has been said about marriage initially by him, saying things like "he really wants to marry me", "let me make you a statement of intent", "that will be us one day", "I really want you to be my wife" etc. But then he says or does things that seem to me to be incongruent then I feel like I am being manipulated or strung along to some extent, and I feel hurt and confused. I would rather someone was very reserved about saying such things until there is a concrete way forward that they are ready to follow through on. I find the vacillation hurtful and confusing.

There are some complicating factors on both sides:

* He is divorced. He was married to an entitled type woman who did not work, who ended up with 60% of his money and half his cancer payout intended for *his* future health, plus custody of his daughter, whom he was the primary carer of. So burnt extremely badly.

* I have been burnt very badly in the opposite sense through not being married. I had a son whilst not being married to someone who turned out to be a controlling aggressive narcissist with hundreds of thousands of pounds behind him, on 100k a year, who made life hell in the courts and tried to run me out of money. This may be an ongoing thing into the future. I am on 30k per year as a scientist with about 20 k behind me and have had 20 k wiped out and my career severly damaged by having a kid with a much richer man without being married who then tried to grind me into dust through the court system and will likely continue to do so until our kid is grown up.

* Being married to me is now extremely important emotionally, and for a sense of safety, security, and putting things right being in a settle secure place. Also this is the person I would genuinely want to be married to and it hurts me a lot that the person I would genuinely love to marry and spend my life with will not marry me. I can't help wondering if there is a disparity in our feelings towards one another and I feel really hurt by this and it makes me want to withdraw. I think ten years ago before I was burned by my ex trying to grind me into the ground through financial abuse, I may have quite easily been able to put the marriage thing aside, and just look at it rationally from his perspective, but now I know from bitter experience that you are extremely vulnerable having a kid with a man with much more money behind him than you if you are not married.

* He would like another child so would I. I don't very much like the idea of having a kid without being married first after my previous experiences. For some reason having a kid with someone who refuses to marry me first kind of makes my stomach turn slightly. Whether or not this is reasonable, it's just kind of the way I feel about it.

* There is a big disparity financially between me and my new partner. He has fairly significant assets and earns £750 a day when working.

* Because of financial risks of losing what he already has, he does not want to get married to me even with a prenup agreement where I say no claim to house etc. Prenups are not legally binding in the UK but after a recent ruling will likely be upheld by the court unless the terms are "manifestly unfair to either party". Still he does not want to risk it. I feel hurt he has this little trust in me.

* He says he will marry but only after a change in the law to make them binding. This a) may never happen, b) these are likely to still have the "manifestly unfair term". Although I mostly believe him, there is a grain of doubt that he really wants to marry ever that throws me off balance. I am hurt that he does not trust me enough to marry with a prenup.

* One thing he said disturbs me in conversation about this when I asked what would happen if we had a kid together and something happened to him, and I asked how the existing assets would be split, he said his exisiting daughter would get everything and our future child and myself would not get anything from the house, even if that is all there was.

* I want him to lead something i.e., get engaged, or make firm plans for a cohabitation agreement in the short to medium term. He has said lots of things that would make anyone think this will happen and yet I sense an inertia from him.

* I am not usually very needy or emotionally highly strung but for some reason this is getting me really upset every so often and there have been several damaging episodes of heated discussions, crying, being overemotional and shutting down.

* If I think about just moving out to be by myself I feel a sense of relief but think to myself "don't cut your nose off to spite your face".

How can I feel more settled about this so it does not cause problems and we can just see what happens in the coming year or two without me feeling on edge and upset about it?

Both of you were burned by divorce...and it has resulted in him never wanting to go through it again while you seem to want it for security purposes.

Nowhere does your post speak of love, of commitment. It speaks only about money.

Ifarriage is your goal, you will need to move on.

I think the best course of action here is for you two to go to couples therapy. Both of you are allowing your ex's to control your lives. You got burned by your ex so on an emotional level your saying to yourself "All men will hurt me, marriage provides SOME protection." And he on a emotional level is saying "All women will hurt me. Not getting married provides SOME protection." You need a nutural third party to help you two figure out what to do from here.

I'd be concerned about him saying his first child would get everything if he died and you and any eventual child would get nothing. That to me is a deal breaker right there. You guys need couples counselling.

Yes. The problem is we both of us have a trust issue. I kind of *know* that if we could get past this it's as good as you can get in a relationship.

This is the only problematic issue between us. We both love each other and we would likely stay together forever, but I am too afraid to take things forward and have a child with him with no marriage, having been burned by a much richer agressive ex trying to run me out of money and the damage having a child causes to your career and earning potential etc. Similarly he won't take the plunge either.

I guess the trouble is even if we go to counselling there will always be assymetry. One person has to assume the burden of trust more than the other whether we marry or not. I kind of just wish I could find the courage for that to be me and move on with him. But the issue upsets me and causes me too much stress and fear to be able to do that.

I don't think the two of you need to get married...at least no time in the near future.

You both obviously love one another but love isn't enough and there's too much talk of juggling assets, money, accounts with stipulations etc...

There's no trust and when you get married you should become 1. You don't go into a marriage with someone already planning for a divorce.

I wouldn't have a child with him! If you want to be together as a couple without getting g married, that could work out. But he has been very clear about leaving everything to his existing g daughter. I don't see that be wants another child.

With the child thing, he really pines for his daughter and associates the house with her, and he was lucky to keep it in the divorce. He really wants her to have it. He can't imagine loving another child as much as his daughter although he would like another. It is kind of unlikely that something would happen to him before we could build assets up enough to cover it so she could keep it. It was kind of an extreme case I put to him to probe his attitude and I didn't like what I heard at that point! hmmm

She's a Scientist... Her life is based on theory, facts and probability. That's why she posted the way she did. It doesn't mean she's obsessed with the financial factors - they're just in the forefront of her life - from past to present (by getting screwed over from her ex).

She wants a commitment, she wants the security of being loved by her boyfriend - neither of which she is really getting.

Okay aliceunderice (awesome login name by the way)... You're a scientist... It's time to weight the probabilities with your current relationship. Can the emotional feelings and the theories... just look at the facts.

Personally, I believe you'd be a great catch for a lot of decent men.

What exactly is marriage?

It's a LEGAL government/religious agreement between 2 parties.

What I'm trying to tell you is that you are already living a married life. Why is there a need to sign a contract or a dotted line?

If you want the "celebration" part of the marriage, you are free to do so any time.

Most men in their right might would never sign such an agreement (if they have a half a brain). It's extremely risky and justice system is pretty one sided. Can you blame them?

If you think you can find a men that will (smart one anyways), good luck

What I don't understand is if this is so important to you, why didn't you get it settled BEFORE moving in with him? Makes no sense to me. You are basically repeating your past experience, getting all entangled with someone without having the formal aspects figured out first. You kind of set yourself up here for disappointment and to feel screwed.

Stop focusing so much on what he is or is not doing and look at your end. What you are doing and what you SAY you want are not congruent. So how can you back up your words with actions?

haha, yes what you said Knot2loud. This system of equations does not have a solution. Error. is basically my situation at the moment

yes you are right, itsallgrand. I am repeating mistakes to some extent.

Part of the issue here is when we met I was going through the court system still and was in a situation of just keeping my head above water. Now that is settled down I've started thinking more in these terms about how do I move forward. Now I'm already involved. There is no ideal way to resolve this situation. Also he was confused I think so he was much more positive about marriage nearer the beginning, but then got legal advice, from his current solicitor who said "you'd have to be mad to get married as a man", and he has kind of back-tracked to "get married if the law changes" and there are changes being considered right now in the UK to make prenups binding. I wish I could settle my nerves as it were and see what happens, but I am really struggling with that.

Are you living in his home, or are you renting an apartment together, or what is the arrangement?

Some people may find my thinking on this too black and white, but I think if two people aren't on the same page as far as agreeing to where their relationship is going and what the current arrangement also means, then it's not a good idea to live together. Basically, my thoughts are don't invest any more than the other person is willing to. If moving in with someone and living with them to you means the relationship is to move along to something further (marriage, or a common law agreement, or something of the kind) and your partner is not 100% on the same track as you, as evidenced by action, then don't do it.

You could always live on your own until the two of you work this out properly. If the current arrangement doesn't work for you anymore, it's within your right to change it. Why stay if you are going to have to suck up what you don't want? And if you are afraid it will mean breaking up, or if that happens, well it sucks but then the relationship wouldn't have been able to give you what you wanted anyways. Living with someone doesn't guarantee you anything.

Moving in together is not only about feelings and a relationship, it's a business arrangement too. Did you move in with him due to financial reasons?

Well, to be fair, he would have to be a bit mad. Prenups are legally binding here in the US, so this is less of an issue for us. We also have protections for dependent spouses left out of a will. Wives (or husbands) get an "elective share" depending on time married and the extent of financial dependence.

Fact of the matter is this guy is understandably jaded from getting burned with his last marriage. While I know it's much easier for me to say it than for you to believe it, it's not something to be taken personally. We can trust and love our partners, but once scorned, people very often become someone else.

He has put it out there.. no legal prenup, no marriage. I couldn't tell how how long you should hold out and try ti figure it out for. It sounds like you're really set on another kid and won't have one without a marriage (very understandable as well). The writing appears to be on the wall. Incompatibility can and often does happen to otherwise good couples.

hi itsallgrand, I am living in his home. When I moved in I was in a bad situation as in going through the court system and job had just ended, new one not in sight, and problems to relocate anywhere to get one because of custody issues with respect to my son. If things were as they now stand and I had my new job, and was still living somewhere else on my own, I would probably have held off on moving in until something concrete was put in place with repsect to all this stuff. I've said to him as much.

Have thought about moving out until something concrete is agreed upon and actioned. I think he would be hurt by that and see it as putting pressure on him, but I would probably feel better. It might lead to a break up I guess.

What I don't understand is if this is so important to you, why didn't you get it settled BEFORE moving in with him? Makes no sense to me. You are basically repeating your past experience, getting all entangled with someone without having the formal aspects figured out first. You kind of set yourself up here for disappointment and to feel screwed.

 

Stop focusing so much on what he is or is not doing and look at your end. What you are doing and what you SAY you want are not congruent. So how can you back up your words with actions?

Agreed 100%. How in the world do you proceed with the relationship with a person that doesn't want exactly what you are looking for?

thanks jman. Yeah incompatibility due to external factors is our issue. I might try to keep on top of it for a year or two to see what happens, or if it's getting me down too much, move out.

yes you are right, itsallgrand. I am repeating mistakes to some extent.

 

Part of the issue here is when we met I was going through the court system still and was in a situation of just keeping my head above water. Now that is settled down I've started thinking more in these terms about how do I move forward. Now I'm already involved. There is no ideal way to resolve this situation. Also he was confused I think so he was much more positive about marriage nearer the beginning, but then got legal advice, from his current solicitor who said "you'd have to be mad to get married as a man", and he has kind of back-tracked to "get married if the law changes" and there are changes being considered right now in the UK to make prenups binding. I wish I could settle my nerves as it were and see what happens, but I am really struggling with that.

Since you already been dealing with our great JUSTICE system and probably spent TONS of money on lawyers......that should tell you that perhaps keeping the government/courts and lawyers OUT of your relationship (which is what marriage is) might be the best course going forward.

If things go south TODAY, it's a clean split. If things go south when you are married.....ask yourself, how much does a average divorce cost? About 15-20k.

READ: Lawyers are the people that benefit from divorce. Not YOU or other party.

What exactly is marriage?

 

It's a LEGAL government/religious agreement between 2 parties.

 

What I'm trying to tell you is that you are already living a married life. Why is there a need to sign a contract or a dotted line?

 

If you want the "celebration" part of the marriage, you are free to do so any time.

 

 

 

Most men in their right might would never sign such an agreement (if they have a half a brain). It's extremely risky and justice system is pretty one sided. Can you blame them?

 

If you think you can find a men that will (smart one anyways), good luck

To me it is perfectly valid to want a marital commitment rather than living a "married life" - I'm not going to judge someone's values when it comes to marriage. There is no "celebration" part of marriage- the celebration is a wedding reception that has nothing to do with the ceremony or the vows - and I am 100% certain that the OP is not focused on a party.

OP -he doesn't want a real marriage to you, he doesn't want to be a full parent to your future child. I would move on.

To me it is perfectly valid to want a marital commitment rather than living a "married life" - I'm not going to judge someone's values when it comes to marriage.

The big question is, would it be perfectly valid for you to sign such a contract if you were a man? Under current laws/justice system.

As a woman, I would probably the same thing as you said, simply because you have WAY less risk and WAY more benefits if things go south.

For a men to sign such contract, in the days of 50% divorce rate is simply LUDICROUS and IDIOTIC. If you look at a marriage arrangement from a BUSINESS perspective, no business man (that has even the slightest clue) would ever sign such contract. No way in hell.

hi DoF. Thing about this is that it really is right apart from all this crap that has external causes. I kind of struggle with that. If we were incompatible in how we get on, you know how there is usually something, it would be easy to turn my back and move on. A lot of the time, I can live in the moment and think this is really great. I think with this guy there would always be that niggling doubt forever of thinking "you made a mistake there and should have been braver and trusted him". There's nothing wrong in the day-to-day, I'd say it actually couldn't be better, but whenever this question comes up of committment and marriage, I feel crap.

hi DoF. Thing about this is that it really is right apart from all this crap that has external causes. I kind of struggle with that. If we were incompatible in how we get on, you know how there is usually something, it would be easy to turn my back and move on. A lot of the time, I can live in the moment and think this is really great. I think with this guy there would always be that niggling doubt forever of thinking "you made a mistake there and should have been braver and trusted him". There's nothing wrong in the day-to-day, I'd say it actually couldn't be better, but whenever this question comes up of committment and marriage, I feel crap.

I'm gonna suggest that you take your own advice and go by it (in bold).

If you can't accept and be happy with what you already have (which sounds like a great relationship)......NOTHING (including the act of marriage) will ever make you happy.

Why do you seek a validation of the state when it comes to your relationship is the real question here? I can understand if there is a legal reason (maybe a will, children involved, assigning estate etc). Those are valid reasons IMO.

PS. I'm currently happily married to a great woman and am extremely happy. But if things go south, I will not be marrying again, EVER again. And if I date a woman that tells me that she wants to be married one day, it's a deal breaker to me.

hi itsallgrand, I am living in his home. When I moved in I was in a bad situation as in going through the court system and job had just ended, new one not in sight, and problems to relocate anywhere to get one because of custody issues with respect to my son. If things were as they now stand and I had my new job, and was still living somewhere else on my own, I would probably have held off on moving in until something concrete was put in place with repsect to all this stuff. I've said to him as much.

 

Have thought about moving out until something concrete is agreed upon and actioned. I think he would be hurt by that and see it as putting pressure on him, but I would probably feel better. It might lead to a break up I guess.

I don't know. I think a man (or woman!) who is gun shy about commitment would probably have that increased by having a partner move in with them due to financials, rather than because you came to that agreement together as an act of progressing the relationship. Does this make sense? It makes sense to me. He's worried about being used for his money, and then you did (I won't use the word use, but you had the bf help you out financially by way of allowing you to live with him) sort of reinforce his idea of how women roll.

I think moving out, if anything, and showing him you walk on your own two feet without issue, gives the bit of hope you are looking for that he may feel differently at some point in time.

But I think going off what he tells you now is the smart thing to do, always. No marriage, no prenup, no common law agreement (or equivalent). Time to move on.

I don't know. I think a man (or woman!) who is gun shy about commitment would probably have that increased by having a partner move in with them due to financials, rather than because you came to that agreement together as an act of progressing the relationship. Does this make sense? It makes sense to me. He's worried about being used for his money, and then you did (I won't use the word use, but you had the bf help you out financially by way of allowing you to live with him) sort of reinforce his idea of how women roll.

 

I think moving out, if anything, and showing him you walk on your own two feet without issue, gives the bit of hope you are looking for that he may feel differently at some point in time.

 

But I think going off what he tells you now is the smart thing to do, always. No marriage, no prenup, no common law agreement (or equivalent). Time to move on.

Great points IMO. Build his confidence WITH ACTION.

Currently, he is pretty confident that he will get totally screwed!