Woe of the Beta male

Hey everyone

I'm trying for some introspection here - before I start just let me say that I'm not looking for this thread for nice guys to complain about how they finish last.

So hey there....I'm a nice guy and I finish last

I'm on the heels of another breakup (long time coming) and just trying to.... get some perspective on my place in the dating world

For any of you who have taken any interest in the Mayer/Briggs personality test, I'm an ISFJ - for the uninitiated, that's a uber-responsible softie with some other annoying attributes - I was fascinated when I took the test, as it nailed me to probably 90% (I'm an ISFJ that will actually communicate with you and a few other discrepancies)

So my ex and I made the call to separate a few weeks back. There were numerous reasons for this, many boiling down to simple incompatibility:

She's very high energy and an extremely outspoken and self proclaimed Alpha female whereas I'm a softer spoken artsy type

We didn't have anything in common that we enjoyed doing together and conversation was really really hard. I found her overwhelming and she found me reeeaaally boring ( I've never had that with anyone before)- this one was the main factor as we just didn't have fun together

Her opinions are hard and fast whereas I'm more....tender I guess towards other peoples opinions and perspectives

We recognized these and our other differences early on and thought we'd be able to make it based on the other attributes we liked about one another. Over time I found her very critical and overwhelming and I would more and more often become anxious and stressed - in all honesty I should have had better boundaries and left ages ago

Fort the last two years we were embroiled in a crazy roller coaster ride with her teenage daughter, when the fog lifted and we had some time to really re-examine us as a couple we wondered what there really was when you take the family (she has 5 kids) responsibilities out of it. In typical ISFJ fashion I threw myself into family responsibilities for the last 3.5 years of our partnership.

Over time, while she appreciated my gentle, giving nature she really found that she wanted more of an Alpha male, more of a challenge, more of a ballbuster (I don't know how to be a challenge with the huge demands of the family). I understand her wants, but feel they would make more sense were it to just be the two of us, or with a few less kids - it was exhausting.

So much of the literature around this sort of thing will say, be a challenge to your girlfriend, to your wife, always leave her wanting, give her two signs of affection for her every three....that sort of thing.

I'm just like my dad...I'm not a alpha male, I'm the typical ISFJ guy who will make sure everything runs smoothly, show my love, support you and give you my last quarter cup of Starbucks if you finish yours, you an trust me with your life and your heart.

So....I think I'm just trying to process, my ex has said before to me "you get so lost in us (meaning the family) and I definitely did, for a long time I was leaving work 2-3 times a day to check on her daughter, we've done eating disorder, self harm, suicide ideation, tons of police visits.... I could go on, it's been a rocky ride, stressful ride. I always say my dedication and support for all her kids and her to be where my strength lay as a "strong male", while not aggressive and outspoken I was there for all the stuff her and the kids needed, many hospital visits and drunken teen escapades. It felt like a bit of a catch-22 as she'd tell me not to get lost in everything, but she was very demanding (also self proclaimed) and the needs of the family were very high so I didn't really know how to NOT get lost in everything.

I'm rambling, I guess where I'm at is I'm not sure how to take this (there's a ton more details, maybe some of you remember some of my posts back in January) but I'm not sure if I went wrong picking someone extremely incompatible with me? Maybe I should have held out for a sweet gentle librarian or am I too "Beta" and gentle which is a turn-off?

If I am too beta and gentle, I don't really know how to up my game in that regard without compromising who I am (which is a gentle beta-artist by the looks of it)

I was forward with my needs and frustrations with her, but they always got shut down fairly quickly, so as time went on, I voiced my needs less and less. This was a point of frustration for her, but when I explained that it seemed pointless to do so because she'd just shut me down....she would shut that down too......

Is there a place for Beta guys? (as we are called), some people would say "nice guy" but I find that that moniker also includes, possessiveness, passive-aggressiveness and shut off emotions (none of which are me)

I get why women would go for the confidence of the Alpha male, but dang....I'm just not at this point in my life and never have been, I was a quiet baby, quiet kid, etc, I'm just a more peaceful kind of person who would rather be a partner than a leader in a relationship.

Or maybe I was just with the wrong person way too long, trying too hard to fit a square peg in a round hole, I don't know.

Any thoughts on my rambling mess?

Thanks

You sound fine as you are, to be honest, just incompatible with her for the reasons you've gone over. I don't know what you (and she) means by getting "lost" in things. Does that mean "involved," or "focused," or "overwhelmed", or something else entirely? Sounds like there was a lot of intensity and drama around her. Were you attracted to that, do you think?

I get why women would go for the confidence of the Alpha male,

I think you mean "some women would…". There are variations among women, but confidence is an appealing quality to both men and women. Arrogance, not so much.

My guess is it was not a good fit. Maybe the kind of woman you'd be a good fit with is harder to find because she's not so intense, is quieter and does not draw attention to herself? I don't know. What do you look for in a partner? What do you value, and what do you find attractive?

For "beta" males (ie quiet guys who are not passionate about anything), there is no solution i'm afraid. Your kindness and attention can charm a dynamic woman only for so long until they start asking themselves the "partner for life question", at which point the prospect of boredom rebukes them.

Same reason we guys are bored with passive girls really...

Basically my answer to that question is that we quiet regular normal guys who don't have much going on in their lives should settle for less, because the women we're attracted to will not settle for less for long, and will leave us eventually.

Be careful of over-generalizing your experience with one unique individual and your place in the wider scheme of things. We certainly pick up many pointers from each romantic experience, but in their raw form most of those lessons are very specific around how things needed to be to work with the person in which it didn't work. I know of several alpha female + beta male relationships in my friend group where the dynamic works really well. In another case, it is more situational, with one of them taking point in certain situations, and the other taking point in others. You do have to bring something else to the table besides dependability though. It's so easy for us nice guys to get stuck in the pattern of loving her and forget to excite her as well. And what excites women is when WE are excited. Sometimes, you deserve to finish that Starbucks! I think sometimes we use niceness to hide low self esteem, putting others needs so far ahead of our own that we forget that our needs are important too.

While you couldn't bring it this time, it may have been because she did not encourage that side of you, or you just got lost in the situation as you mentioned. You have to take time even in a busy life to reignite the passion and rebuild those connections that get frayed over time.

But at the end of the day:

"We didn't have anything in common that we enjoyed doing together and conversation was really really hard. I found her overwhelming and she found me reeeaaally boring ( I've never had that with anyone before)- this one was the main factor as we just didn't have fun together"

This has little to do with the difference in personalities in my opinion. You just didn't have enough points to connect on to begin with. You have to be able to have fun with your partner, or what are you even doing? The next time around, look for things in common, and conversation that feels effortless. There is enough work in relationships when those elements are there!

I guess I know what you're saying only too well. I'm the beta son of a beta father. My wife definitely does not like alpha males! She even hates the few alpha traits that I have. I'm generally a quiet, peace loving bloke who is more concerned with getting a consensus than pursuing my own agenda. I will, however, become aggressive when threatened or my family are threatened. As I'm now 50+, definitely being a beta has harmed my career, just as it did my dad's. I'm quite creative and have had writings published but my main career has been a disappointment.

I think my first marriage would have worked better if I was more alpha but, honestly, I'm glad I'm not with my first wife.

I don't think beta people finish last but usually finish outside the "medal" positions. I don't think that all people can train themselves to be alphas but may at least avoid being a doormat.

I think alpha/beta is too black and white. I reckon everybody has a bit of both in them, it's just a case of letting them out.

I have a lot of the traits people think of as beta, but I have no worries being in charge and the centre of attention if the situation is right and/or if I'm in the mood. I bet that if you asked people who know me, whether I'm alpha or beta, you'd get a fairly even split of answers.

My girlfriend is more alpha, likes being in charge, very strong character. She loves my quiet side, that I'm considerate and softly spoken. But yeah, the thing that turns her on is the alpha side that I show now and then.

Love and affection for the beta. Lust and adoration for the alpha.

Examples:

Her: "What would you like to do tonight?"

Beta me: "I don't mind. Shall we go out and get some food? What do you fancy?"

Her: "Thai?"

Beta Me: "OK. Lets go. My treat."

Her: "You're so sweet" *smooch*

or

Her: "What would you like to do tonight?"

Alpha me: *Running hand up and down her thigh* "I have some ideas."

Her: *giggles* "Could you give me a clue?"

Alpha me: "OK. Here's a clue..." *starts unbuttoning her shirt*

etc. etc.

She loves both of those versions of me, but in different ways. You've got to have a balance. There are lots of levels in between those two examples. And by the way, the alpha example I wrote isn't something I did until we were very comfortable with each other. If I'd done that on a second date, she'd have maced me (and quite rightly so).

If you think you're completely beta then maybe you just need to learn to let the alpha out. I used to be nearly entirely beta, but I slowly developed the alpha traits, over a long period, in various social situations.

That's my take on it anyway.

I'm not sure if I went wrong picking someone extremely incompatible with me?

Yes. And that's what we all do as we live and learn.

I'd ditch the whole alpha beta premise--it's messy kid stuff, and it's doing a number on your head. It's also meaningless to the kind of woman who's mature enough for you.

Most people are simply NOT our match. That's true of all of us. When we can grasp that, we can screen for potential relationships more carefully and allow wrong matches to pass early.

Your qualities and preferences are part of your unique value. We each own unique lenses through which we view others, and the goal is to find someone who shares your vision. That's the stuff of chemistry and simpatico, but it's rare.

And it's supposed to be rare. If finding love were easy, what would be so special about it?

I'd quit viewing myself through someone else's lens and focus instead on cultivating my best Self--by my OWN standards. When you meet someone who clicks with you and appreciates who you are, you'll thank yourself for ditching the premise that sensitive introverts can't 'win'. That's a fantasy perpetuated by the obnoxious to justify remaining so.

Head high.

Alpha/Beta is kinda BS. It's a little post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Well, because things didn't work out with this woman, you must be "too beta" or "not alpha enough". Also, for all the guys who style themselves as "alpha" there is always someone out there more alpha. The whole dynamic is soooo cutthroat. When your girl styles herself as an "alpha female" that doesn't really mean anything other than that she believes she deserves whatever the heck she wants. She's basically an egoist. In this case, she shames you as the beta because she doesn't really live in a world where she gets everything she wants, and she needs someone to blame for that. That's you.

Your ex sounds like an abrasive shrew. She sounds rather like no matter what you would've done in any situation she'd have found a way to find fault with it. That doesn't sound like "you're not alpha enough" that sounds like she's a....well....a word I can't type on here. It is my belief that someone who expects their partner to always be confident, to always be assertive, to always get the best result, to always be passionate about everything, is someone that has a hole inside their own soul, and they cannot and will not be made to look at that hole by having their own fears and insecurities reflected back at them through their partner.

That is not your failing, and it's not your shame. It's hers.

And don't be ashamed that you put that much effort into her daughter, who I can only assume you love like your own. When she says "you get lost in it" it sounds to me like she's saying that she's ashamed that you do more for her daughter than she does.

My advice, is think about what you want. Find something that really means something to you and be completely uncompromising with regards to it. Think about the way your ex tried to walk on you and decide now that you'll enforce boundaries with regard to your own self-respect in the future.

When I think about it, it means all of the above, the kids dad was scarce so I was very involved with them, focused on the tasks needed to be done in the home and definitely overwhelmed by much of it. I wasn't attracted to "intensity" I was initially attracted to her strength and blunt honesty, as I'd always know where I stood with her. Over time, that blunt honesty became very critical of petty things like how I cook eggs or how I'm undefined as a person for having Christian friends when I don't subscribe to that belief system. funny how some of those things that initially attract us exacerbate over time and become negative

Confidence is always good.....she was pretty arrogant (and would tell you so) and it was quite wearing.

For "beta" males (ie quiet guys who are not passionate about anything), there is no solution i'm afraid. Your kindness and attention can charm a dynamic woman only for so long until they start asking themselves the "partner for life question", at which point the prospect of boredom rebukes them.

 

Same reason we guys are bored with passive girls really...

 

Basically my answer to that question is that we quiet regular normal guys who don't have much going on in their lives should settle for less, because the women we're attracted to will not settle for less for long, and will leave us eventually.

Hmmm, that makes sense, all those compassion and kindness did draw her to me, but in the end she did say that she wished I could "grow" her and "inspire" her and that's where our interests were really miles apart, I'm very well read, active, can woodwork and draw like nobodies business.....but none of that interested her so she didn't engage with those with me. When I would try to meet her on her level for what she liked to do it would frustrate her because I wasn't doing it "intrinsically" and just following her lead, felt like a damned if I did, damned if I didn't sort of thing.

To those of you who rubbish the "alpha/beta/omega" thing, I'm at least twice as old as most of you here. I've seen SO many examples in real life. Of course, there are a host of spectra in between and personalities are not 1-dimensional, they are multi-dimensional. I know that a lack of alpha traits has held me back in life and nobody can persuade me otherwise. I'm not saying that everyone should aspire to be the "top dog" because, in most environments, there can only be one. An alpha person who is outgunned and outnumbered by others is a danger to themselves and others. Many turn to crime because they are unable to get what they want by conventional means.

I'd say a good place to be is half way between alpha and average.

Beta and worse may not necessarily aspire to be the leader but should set their boundaries and expect others to respect them.

I was terrible at meeting my own needs for a while, that's for sure. The ease of conversation will be a big one for me. To quote my ex: "It takes a pretty f'n brilliant person to engage me" and she was so spot on, I really struggled to meet her on her level, conversation was really forced. Ease of conversation is indicative of so much, and I chose to ignore that and a few other incompatibilities thinking we could find balance.

There was definitely a dynamic around her believing she should get whatever she wants. We had money concerns as she's quite a spender and would give me trouble for buying mid-range steak (yes really), she told me she wanted me to make more decisions around vacations so I booked us into a weekend getaway which I got chewed out for because I didn't "get" her as she'd never want to go to that particular place etc, lot of stuff like that was cropping up and maybe was a symptom with her dissatisfaction with our connection? I don't know, but I must say my stress levels are decreasing every day post breakup.

Boundaries are a big thing for me, probably what I need to work on the most, I fall into caring for others extremely easily, I chose my career as a youth worker because I get to care for and support people, it's a genuine struggle to not jump in if someone needs help on something.

It does sound like you guys just weren't compatible. As you admit, you weren't "on her level".

I don't really consider myself an "alpha female" but I am pretty strong willed, know what I want, and do what I want. If I want to go somewhere/do something and my SO doesn't want to go, that's fine, I'll just go by myself. I get annoyed if my partner expects me to go somewhere/something I hate when he can go with friends and have fun. I mean, it's good to have a life outside of each other, right? I speak my mind and if I feel someone is too clingy/emotional, I tend to withdraw and spend some time by myself. I also withdraw when I am going through a hard time.

I've been with a handful of more emotional men. It's weird because they seem to like how I am yet also hate it, and wish I were more emotional, more romantic, less, I don't know, me. My ex used to grab my shoulders during arguments and say "I JUST WANT YOU TO FEEL SOMETHING" and I'd say "Well I am feeling things, I just don't have tantrums" and he said "WELL THEN EXPRESS YOURSELF" and I told him that I wasn't having a tantrum to please him and to shove off.

This is what I don't understand, why are more emotional men attracted to women like me? I don't get it. I don't get it at all. Why not be with a woman is more sensitive, passive, and emotional? I think you'd get on well. So why not??

I'll tell you what this introverted man did. He found a beautiful woman in the Philippines who cherishes those qualities both you and he bring to the table. It might be worth a try if you aren't finding what you want here.

Clingy is never good, that's for sure and a life outside of one another is necessary.

I think more emotional men (like me) are perhaps attracted to your strength, and the balance you may bring to a relationship with someone more emotional perhaps? Maybe if they have low self-esteem it subconciously compensates? I'm not sure really. I was attracted to my exes strength, high energy and honesty, but I likely should have gone for a more sensitive, passive emotional woman because I found my ex overwhelming.

It's about being in tune with yourself and finding a balance - something I'm still looking for. I've done both ends of the spectrum in my last two long term relationships. My ex-ex would hold onto things forever and they'd blow up a year later, my recent ex was outspoken and blunt about everything, all the time and at the end of the day I found myself not wanting to listen to her when she had something important to say as I was already done from all the petty complaints.

I need to find that balance in the middle

I agree that it's about balance and you gotta find something in the middle. I'm like your ex and I tend to be very blunt. While I am messy myself and not too much of a complainer with little things, if I see my partner doing something that I feel is irrational/ill-conceived/poorly planned/stupid, I speak up.

It sounds like what initially attracted you is what got you burned. You are attracted to the boldness and strength but in the end, it's just too intense. That's okay. But it goes to show that what you're attracted to isn't always what you should go for. IE there are many women who like "bad boys" and feel attraction towards that kind of guy. But I'd argue, if you want any sort of stability in your love life, never ever date a bad boy, even if that's what you're into!

Take the Mayer/Briggs personality test with a grain of salt. I've never heard of it being used by anyone outside of pseudo-psychology because it's pretty widely accepted that those test results are fairly useless. Even if they did give a reliable extrapolation of your personality, people are fluid and those tests are subjective. Even if the tests were magic and produced perfect results, those results would only be temporarily accurate (days, weeks, months, maybe years, but still temporally limited). Point is, don't box yourself in with a label.

Speaking of labels... Ditch the whole "beta/alpha" thinking. I have no idea how this got started, or why it became so common, but I suspect it has something to do with PUAA (Pick-Up Artists Anonymous) and that whole PUA-mindset. From what I've seen, a lot of that mindset (as it pertains to people) stems from a misunderstand of biological fitness, over-extended extrapolations and assumptions, and makes the faulty assumption that observations of replicates within a biased sample representing a minority of the world's cultures, and a biased sample from within those cultures, can be used to draw conclusions about fundamental human instinct and behaviour. Of course there's overlap with the label and traits that indicate a real personal struggle (ie. lack of confidence).

Here's the thing... Nice guys don't finish last. There's plenty of successful nice guys out there with great families, happy sex lives, and wives who love them with the utmost respect... It's guys who see no other worthy attribute in themselves who finish last. Guys who subscribe to the label of "the nice guy" because... Why?

Do they have nothing else to bring to the table? Do they feel it's an easy cop-out to justify their own unhappiness that places the blame on society while patting themselves on the back? Martyr complex? Do they expect to attract a partner by soliciting sympathy?

IMO being nice is only a pre-requisite to good psychological health and personal fulfillment. It doesn't entitle you to anything, and it doesn't mean people have to treat you a particular way. In a perfect world, sure... But the world isn't perfect. Every single person on earth has the capacity to act nice when they want to. It's a poor measure of character...

Sounds to me like your only problem is that you feel your identity is shameful. You're trying to reject who you are to mold yourself to become this ridiculous image of what some people have told you that all worthwhile women want.

My advice would be to spend time on your own, do something that makes you feel good and that you want to do for your own pursuit regardless of what other people think. Maybe start working out, not to look a certain way or to attract more women, but to take care of yourself as a worthwhile investment.

As far as this woman goes... It sounds like you're a thoughtful and intelligent guy who got involved with a bit of a dim-witted lady. Take her criticism with a grain of salt. Thick will often masquerade as "bold and strong". Learn to weed out the imposters.

Beta/Alpha applies to a lot of other social animals. Some pseudo-scientist decided to apply it to humans too.

The thing is, animals have got nothing on us when it comes to complex social structures.

I think it applies to us a bit, but it's not a set of rules like it is in the rest of the animal kingdom.

Like I said, I think everybody has a bit of alpha and a bit of beta inside.

Yeah, I guess it's all a journey of getting to be more in tune with my needs in a relationship and listening to that little voice.

Loves been quite a journey for me over the last 25 years ish, and I really need to try to figure out if it's affected my self esteem on a deeper level.

A brief history:

I married very young, around 22. My wife and I had been discussing children, she went to the doctors and came back saying if she were to have children she'd have awful complications and could die, we opted that I get a vasectomy (stupid on my part, I shouldve insisted on her tubes tied) and would adopt were we to have kids. She left me a day post surgery and it came out that the appointment never happened.

Next one, I was seeing this girl for 3 years before marrying her as I didn't want to jump into that too quickly after my first round. We were fairly incompatible for the most part when I look back on it. Shortly after we got married, she became very active (great) and lost 60 pounds (great) and started moonlighting as a stripper unbeknownst to me....needless to say we broke up.

1.5 years after that I started seeing a gal and after 1.5 years with her moved in with her and her kids. We were both really bad with the communication and it eventually imploded. It's too bad, we were a pretty good match overall but we didn't handle conflict at all.

And now we have my recent split.

So somethings up......this many times in an LTR can't be just hard luck right? I don't know if I'm really just not in tune with myself and my needs and just acquiesce to others too much, if I'm a poor judge of partner potential.....I'm not sure right now and hoping some perspective comes soon. I'm pretty solid overall like I wrote in my initial post, loyal, honest, hardworking, try to be sensitive to partners needs, don't sweat the small stuff, very supportive....so I look good on paper, but it just never seems to work out.....

Ditch label, roger that

I think I definitely have martyred myself at times, and struggle with how not to in a sense. The family we had was so incredibly high needs - especially with her daughter being so out of control, there was just always something that needed tending to and I really don't know when to stop sometimes. I just get into task mode and exhaust myself.

Agreed that nice is only a pre-requisite, I don't put "nice guy" as my defining feature, it just seemed to fit the template for presentation.

I'm definitely moving towards doing a lot for myself right now as I've spent so much time looking after others. I've registered for University, bought a Mountain bike to get out, and am making new friends. I'm looking forward to the time to myself, it'll be quite peaceful

Remember that if you are unable to care for yourself and tend to your own needs, you will not be able to care for others.

It sounds mean but it's true: your priority must always be yourself. If you stop caring about yourself, then you're good to no one else. At the end of the day, at the end of everything, when it all fades to black, you will have no one but yourself. Not family, not friends, not SO, not pets. YOURSELF. You're the one you have to live with.

So take care of it.

I wonder if there is a feeling of shame with my identity - especially regarding relationships. I don't hold any ill will against my exes, but I think having this many go sideways has affected me, as much as I try to keep my chin up.

I'm definitely taking her criticisms with a grain of salt now (not that I'll have to hear them anymore). I remember distinctly two things she's said in our time together

"No man can make me happy" and "Nothing impresses me"

I hope she does find one someday that fits her better, but right now I'm glad that person isn't me

Remember that if you are unable to care for yourself and tend to your own needs, you will not be able to care for others.

Agreed, I say that in my work a lot when I talk to students about their relationships. I'll usually phrase it as "you need to stand on your own before you walk with someone else"

In my times I've been single, I've honestly functioned and cared for myself really well. I make sure I'm growing, keeping fit, not languishing etc etc. The real shift in relationships seemed to come in my last two where there were kids involved and I threw myself into it 110% At this point when I eventually start dating again, which won't be for at least a year I'm thinking I don't think I can do a relationship with young kids again, while I'm very good at moving into the dad slot, I don't know if it's the healthiest thing for me.

Beta/Alpha applies to a lot of other social animals. Some pseudo-scientist decided to apply it to humans too.

The thing is, animals have got nothing on us when it comes to complex social structures.

 

I think it applies to us a bit, but it's not a set of rules like it is in the rest of the animal kingdom.

Like I said, I think everybody has a bit of alpha and a bit of beta inside.

You're about half-way there... We're not that special or separate when it comes to mate-selection and attraction...

A trait which makes an individual desirable in one population may make them less desirable in another population. Within any population there will also be selection for and against that trait on an individual basis. Beyond that there's a slew of other interacting traits that influence selection. The fact is that most traits are at equilibrium, and the bell-curve ideally peaks at the middle of both extremes. In some cases desirable traits are actually detrimental to the possessing individual, which is just another factor that contributes to the equilibrium. Cost/benefit trade-offs, etc... Fact is any observed correlation between any given trait and fitness is only applicable to the sampled population.

The only time you really see non-breeding casts is when the social structure is composed of closely related relatives (ie. ant colonies). Otherwise it's almost never binary, and even when a definitive alpha does exist, that individual is often paying a high cost for the reproductive opportunities.

I guess the message to take is that there's a niche for everyone, and I think, with the exception of serious illness/disorder/injury/trauma/dysfunction, nobody's niche in a first-world country is really that bleak or depressing.