Relationships With Severely Avoidant People

I wanted to start this thread after having read and posted on the commitmentphobe threads. The person I am currently with has a lot of issues related to having an avoidant personality. I am choosing to have my eyes wide-open as far as this relationship goes. Most of the commitmentphobe threads seem to me to be for people who are with commitmentphobes/avoidants who are wanting to know if it will be possible for them to have marriage and children. Both of us already did marriage and children much earlier in our lives, and children especially, is not something either of us can have or want. Marriage for me wouldn't be the be and end all, and I doubt this guy would ever want to marry anyway, so if I do ever choose to marry, it would be very unlikely to be with him - I wouldn't completely rule out marriage, more than likely to another person though in the event of this relationship not working out.

I have had some correspondence with another person here who had many years with a seriously avoidant, and we seem to have had a lot of shared experiences with those partners due to their outlook on people and the way they see relationships. They are definitely a poor match for anyone who needs or wants a lot of closeness and togetherness.

Having said that, this person does have some qualities I like and I do really like seeing him. We've only been together 9 months, and I've seen some changes with him with regard to closeness. He tells me he feels safe with me, that he trusts me, and that I'm a "Good Soul". I believe he does have at least some traits of avoidant/borderline schizoid personality. He tells me he spends more time with me than any other person he knows. Prior to being with me, he had not been in a relationship for many years. He said he didn't miss that - it gave him an opportunity to really know himself, be comfortable with himself and enjoy his own company. He says also that he never met anyone he liked enough to be with although he does have friends. Some of them are women who I have met - women with husbands and partners. I have liked all of them - they are all beautiful, intelligent and nice people. People generally like him. He's a nice person. He has lots of interests and is brilliant with animals, especially horses and dogs.

Fortunately for me, I have my own interests and a nice group of friends. I am involved with a group of women who I was brought together with through dance. Some have been professional dancers, the others have varying interests and involvement with dance. It's been quite life-changing for me to come together with these women who say that as soon as they met me, they felt like they had known me forever. I feel the same way, and I think this is because we are very, very alike in some ways. Anyway, we love to dress up and have parties which are women only and which dancers attend as well as other friends known to us who might like to come along for an evening of dance. Some of the girls are quite out there and lots of fun and generally nice people. They are very chatty, sociable and interesting.

Anyway, one reason this is fortunate for me is that the severely avoidant person I am with has no interest in socialising. Even his best friend who he has known for years, he finds difficult to be around for more than an hour or so as he says he runs out of things to say. He's okay in sporting or special interest groups. I was sort of surprised, but not to only recently find out that many years ago, he was president of a well-known luxury motorcycle group. (Not bikies) It's a very large and well-known group which goes on organised rides and sometimes raises money for charity. He had been a motorcycle mechanic by trade and also raced motorbikes at national level a long time ago.

Anyway, I wondered if there are other people out there like me who are in relationships with people with this type of personality. I guess I'd like to understand more. A while back, I do recall reading Al Turtle on avoiders and clingers and the dynamics. I'm not looking to actually "cure" him, but I guess to understand what I should expect if I do choose to stay in the relationship. Thanks in advance.

Surprisingly, he did ask me to move in with him, but I have said no for the present time for several reasons.

Ps sorry for messing up the title - would the moderators mind editing this to: Relationships with severely avoidant people

Are you confident enough not to take his behavior personally as opposed to attributing it to the personality type you describe and confident enough to keep up that "don't take it personally" mindset for the long term? On a practical level are you comfortable, long term, with attending social gatherings by yourself or for very short periods of time?

Are you confident enough not to take his behavior personally as opposed to attributing it to the personality type you describe and confident enough to keep up that "don't take it personally" mindset for the long term? On a practical level are you comfortable, long term, with attending social gatherings by yourself or for very short periods of time?

Hi Bataya, I don't think it is personal because he is avoidant with EVERYONE, but it is true that there will possibly come a point where I will need to decide whether or not I want to live with this in the long-term. We do go out together and sometimes with friends/family together, but that would be less than for most people for sure. I definitely like going out a lot more than he does. We do both get up early in the morning and do physical things - some of those shared - mostly to do with our horses and dogs. On a Saturday night though, I like to go out more than he does - he would rather watch television. I can't answer the question fully yet which is why I started the thread. I know I need to have my eyes wide open.

With regard to his personality type, there was once an occasion when he did and said something which took me by surprise. I'm not entirely sure where it came from (possibly from work I have done). I said to him quite calmly, "Do you have Asperger's syndrome or something like that." He looked relieved and said: "I don't know. I've wondered though. I know I'm not like most people."

He and I sound very similar, though he actually seems a bit healthier than me (I haven't seen my best/only friend in ten years; he keeps wanting to visit).

To my mind, the fact that he wants to move in with you is a very good sign. Also, the fact that he was once more involved with the world could be a good sign, as well. Seriously avoidant people never had those connections to begin with. There are different degrees of asocial behavior, and his sounds pretty manageable, though it'll obviously come with drawbacks for a normal person.

The main thing to keep in mind is that his behavior isn't about you. People like us can get quiet for hours at a time, we can think that a quick hi/hello exchange before we go do our own thing is enough to keep a relationship going, etc. We're in our own little universe, and if you start blaming yourself for it or wondering what's causing it, you'll drive yourself crazy pretty quickly. You're wise to know that you can't cure him.

In my experience, your two main problems will be a lack of emotional nourishment/attention and the probability that you'll develop a certain reputation because of him. "Oh, she's always here by herself, I don't know what's wrong with him. They just have problems." People will be quick to segue from "his problems" to "your (couple-plural) problems", even though it isn't logical at all. Some people are really concerned by their social standing, while others aren't, so your mileage may vary.

The more serious problem, IMHO, is that we just aren't very aware of other people. You'll give him certain emotional cues, and he either won't or can't respond to them. He'll try, because he legitimately has feelings for you, but expressing those feelings is another matter entirely. Prepare for a lot of awkwardness, misunderstandings, and well-meaning attempts that turn out badly. But I think he has potential for improvement, based on his past behavior, so he may very well be able to grow a bit.

Thanks so much for your reply Blue Spiral. What you have posted really seems to hit the nail on the head with him.

It's not so much that socially I wouldn't be out and about with him. It's knowing that we have very different emotional make-ups and social needs.

On the positive side, he's one of those people who doesn't struggle to separate emotion from logic. That's not to say he doesn't have any feelings, but I doubt he ever acts purely on his feelings. It would be VERY unlikely to ever see a person like him put his fist through a wall or break an object in anger. He's a thinker. I know we shouldn't have heroes, but one of my heroes for many years has been Temple Grandin, the American Scientist who has done so much for animal welfare. It's her Asperger's which makes her who she is and what she does and the world (at least of livestock) should be grateful Temple Grandin was born.

I had to laugh at your comment about well-meaning attempts that don't turn out "quite right". There have been a couple of them.

With regard to him asking me to move in, I said no for the present time. He has since asked and encouraged me to start a vegetable garden at his place. I think this would be a good thing for a couple of reasons. It would mean we could have the "togetherness" of being alongside each other, each of us pursuing our own passions, but when we need a break can share a cuppa or share something special of what each of us is doing.

The garden idea sounds very good, it'll give structure to social time. If there's nothing but social interaction, it can be scary, but if there's some activity you're doing together (or he's doing and you're nearby), it's not as intimidating. "props" like that can keep us occupied and comfortable while we talk with other people. It's even better that the activity/prop is at home.

Thanks Blue Spiral. Eventually it tweeked with me that purely social interraction is just too "in yer face" for him unless it's quite brief. However, the best day we ever had was on New Years Day. He helped me move 3 horses in a horse float back to the property where I live. For a lot of people, especially with horses which have rarely been moved, this can be very challenging. Even though he is a professional horse-handler, he said to me at the time, "Well, you know how to do this better than I do, so I'll just stand back." I became so filled with confidence, not just with his words but with the fact he didn't take over the situation that I got those horses straight on and off the trailer on my own. Oh for some man to leave me be and have confidence in me and not take over was very new to me. YOu see he has some qualities which I really value and which help me grow as a person. He doesn't take over me or my life and he does encourage me.

Oh yes, he is very much a homebody. I mostly like it, but there are times I need to get out there and have a bit of a rave with other people which is something he doesn't have a need for although he can be a thrill-seeker in other ways - flies planes and is talking of getting another motorbike soon.

What do you think made you this way in your upbringing?

What do you think made you this way in your upbringing?

With no disrespect meant Kutenish, that might be an unfair question to ask of Blue Spiral. I'm grateful for his posting, but he certainly doesn't owe us such private information - unless of course he volunteers to. Boundaries and privacy are extra important to people who have avoidance issues. He's not a specimen but a very intelligent and articulate person who has kindly shared his views. My understanding anyway is that it isn't always anything to do with a person's upbringing - it's just how they are.

Blue Spiral, something sort of trivial, but which you and others might find interesting. Most of the time, he wears glasses. When he was just a friend, I thought he had nice eyes - they were hazel. Then after we got together, I noticed they turned blue when he was happy. He didn't believe me at first so I took photos. He told me that he wasn't ever aware of that. When he is with me, and things are really good or when we wake up together in the morning, his eyes are blue blue. He even looks different around me a lot of the time. (Well, he claims that the way he looks in the photos is different to how he looks most of the time - very handsome - LOL, could be my wishful thinking. I'll see how they look next time he is around an attractive waitress or other woman). I can instantly tell when I see him how he is - the color of his eyes especially and demeanor tell me if he is open for company and or affection.

What do you think made you this way in your upbringing?

I think it was nature, as opposed to nurture. There are several people in my extended family that have kept to themselves for much of their lives (and I've had limited contact with them, so it didn't rub off through social interaction), so I'm guessing I inherited some obscure DNA trait. Admittedly, I was raised in an isolated, closed-off setting, but I think that was secondary.

Blue Spiral, something sort of trivial, but which you and others might find interesting. Most of the time, he wears glasses. When he was just a friend, I thought he had nice eyes - they were hazel. Then after we got together, I noticed they turned blue when he was happy.

Wow, that's amazing. I had no idea that was physically possible.

SB -- I think that it is possible that he isn't severly avoidant --- it is that he is a point in his life where purely "social" gatherings just don't hold much sway with him. That he is/was in motorcycle group, flys, deals w/ people everyday in his profession....he would rather be alone or w/ someone he cares about.

My bf (ages similar) has had many professions in his life that have involved constant contact w/ people. He has a good circle of friends (99% men) and while he will go to the occassional movie or fishing, he does not crave that interaction. When he is done w/ work, he would rather be home or w/ me than anything else.

And there are many nites that he would rather be home alone than with me.

I have learned to not take it personally. He doesn't look at it that way at all -- he just wants down time, alone. If asked, he will attend a family/friend social function.

I think that your bf has learned what is important to him, and what he values. That you have your womans circle is great -- a place of support, as well as a social outlet. I think that going forward, if you want to be with him, you know that you can be -- but that most of your socializing will be solo. Pick those times when you want/need an escort, and otherwise, go alone -- with the knowledge that he is happy you are out, and waiting for your return.

Hi Mhowe,

Whilst I think that with age, nearly all of us come to know what we value more, I do think, and he has volunteered to me that for him, it is much more than that. He is affected by it in many ways,and he tells me that it also affects him with work. A large part of the reason he chooses to work for himself is his fear of being controlled by others. His marriage ended because he felt suffocated and burdened to be married. He blames himself for that and told me that the main reason he was off racing motorbikes was that he couldn't bear the closeness of marriage (although he claims I am very unlike his ex-wife). He has told me that he has an overwhelming fear of being controlled by other people and of being trapped into a lifestyle he does not want. It's not just about preferring to be alone or sometimes with me. Making plans and organising things like trips or holidays is anxiety-provoking, but he's fine with "spur of the moment - especially if he suggests it. He says he was always like this, even as a child, and believes he was born that way. I suspect though that as the years have gone by, with different life experiences which were not positive, that he became more reclusive. Sometimes we have had periods of what I think is real closeness, and then I know what will follow. I've actually experienced similar myself, but rarely at the same time as him, and I wouldn't experience as often. He'll need to be left alone, and if that is respected, he'll be fine and come back happy - so far.

He has said to me that he doesn't mind if I go out to dinner with other men, "Coz, I know you love me." I told him I thought he was pretty cocky and laughed, and he told me that he felt safe with me, and he knows that even if I went out with other men, he knows I love him and would always go back to him. I think that's true actually - but prefer he doesn't get TOO cocky about that. LOL

I don't think any of this makes him a freak. There are also professionals who have urged that the DSM (Diagnostic Statistical Manual) reclassify avoidant personaliy (disorder) as a personality TYPE and not a disorder - similar, if not the same as homosexuality was once considered as a form of mental illness or deviance. I guess my point is, can I know him really well, accept him totally as he is, love him unconditionally and BE HAPPY, and how do any of us do this with anyone. This isn't my first relationship or even the longest, but I think it's the farthest I've gone as far as truly authentic love goes.

I think that it is good you are questioning yourself -- but from all I have read that you have written -- you love him and he loves you. I think that this ongoing examination of your relationship vis-a-vie him is more based on your anxieties from previous relationships where your eyes have opened well down the path.

Wow, that's amazing. I had no idea that was physically possible.

Oh Bum Blue Spiral, I just lost a longish reply to you so am posting again. Yes, there is definite truth to the saying that "the eyes are the window to the soul". For quite a long time, I have worked with people with autism and some with Asperger's - some believe it to be a form of autism, others say it is something separate. As workers, we have had it impressed on us to be observant to people's non-verbal communication, including their physical appearances - their eyes and demeanor, their gait. This is for their well-being and our safety. Some people with autism can feel so threatened with eye contact, that they can become very violent, but everybody is different. Different appearances can mean different things. Current man in my life says that when I am happy, my eyes become very green. I was in a 10 year relationship with a man who was diagnosed with bipolar after 8 years. His usual eye color was grey-light blue. In times of mania (he was non-compliant with medication), his eyes would become VERY dark blue and he would become very talkative and make jokes. Nearly always when he was like this, I would find out that he was playing poker machines compulsively and spending money like it was water. He spent himself into bankruptcy within a few months and became addicted to the highs of mania. Life with a person who is either avoidant/schizoid/a-s traits is like a play in the park compared to what I went through with the bipolar partner. It's definitely calmer and happier and safer.

I think for all of us, but especially for people who have avoidant/schizoid traits, that it's possible to be in compatible, loving relationships, but there are qualities which can help all of us. Some of those would be to be sensitive and become attuned to where the other person might be, partly through non-verbal communication and to be respectful of that and of differences. There is a balancing act though to either person not giving TOO much of themselves, otherwise we can become drained and lose ourselves, and ultimately, our ability to love.

I think that it is good you are questioning yourself -- but from all I have read that you have written -- you love him and he loves you. I think that this ongoing examination of your relationship vis-a-vie him is more based on your anxieties from previous relationships where your eyes have opened well down the path.

Thanks Mhowe, yes I think that's true that I have a lot of anxiety caused by previous relationships. As much as I love the man in my life, I have an awareness of the need to be true to myself and to see things as they really are.

There is nothing wrong with that -- and when you experience authentic love for the first time, it can be overwhelming. And the cautious part of our heart/soul wants to make sure that it is not stepping into quicksand again!

I think you are wise enough to trust your inner voice! This is the real deal.

Oh Bum Blue Spiral, I just lost a longish reply to you so am posting again. Yes, there is definite truth to the saying that "the eyes are the window to the soul". For quite a long time, I have worked with people with autism and some with Asperger's - some believe it to be a form of autism, others say it is something separate. As workers, we have had it impressed on us to be observant to people's non-verbal communication, including their physical appearances - their eyes and demeanor, their gait.

I'm definitely not one for eye-contact. I wouldn't be surprised if I had Asperger's, but I've always made it a point to avoid therapy.

Again, good luck with your guy!

I'm definitely not one for eye-contact. I wouldn't be surprised if I had Asperger's, but I've always made it a point to avoid therapy.

 

Again, good luck with your guy!

I don't think therapy is of value to everyone, especially if they don't want to, and if a person is content with themselves, why bother. Thank you for your good wishes and sharing your experiences, and all the best wishes for you too.

There is nothing wrong with that -- and when you experience authentic love for the first time, it can be overwhelming. And the cautious part of our heart/soul wants to make sure that it is not stepping into quicksand again!

 

GOD YES

Hi MHowe and All,

I realised yesterday that I am making myself sick with stress. I've had 3 major relationships in my life - all at least fairly long-term. Each of those men were different from each other. Each time, I came away badly hurt.

It's just past 9 months now with this guy, and it's almost like I'm waiting to be dumped or something. Current man rang me last night and told me he is so happy with me, and said jokingly that he had told me he would be hard work. He told me a couple of things like that he loves just having me around even if we aren't doing anything face to face. He has expressed what I believe is real happiness about the idea of each of us doing our own thing close by on a small farm/large property. He talked about being a homebody (I love home as well although I like going out too). It was probably the longest talk re the relationship we have ever had and I was surprised that he said so much. In the past, he has said: "If you have to talk about relationships, that means they are not working and not worth bothering with. I've been there, done that, and I shouldn't have even bothered." It was agreed by both of us by the end of the conversation that we have moved into a different phase of the relationship - that we are coming to know each other at a deeper level, and we are learning to just BE with each other in a different way. He said to me many times that he felt his ex-wife expected him to provide entertainment for her, that she didn't do things on her own, disconnected from her own friends and interests, and even though he bought her a nice car, she wouldn't drive (despite having her license) - she insisted he drive her about. It wasn't until a couple of years after they divorced, that it was learned she had slowly become stone-deaf, and he thinks that would have played at least some part in her isolation from others and her over-dependence on him. A person like him would find all of that completely unbearable, and would react eventually by distancing. He doesn't talk of her as being a bad person, and blames himself for a lot.

Part of his birthday present from me to him arrived yesterday. It's a book called "Everything I Know About Women I learned From My Tractor". It's very politically incorrect and meant to be funny. I'm having a good laugh from it myself. The author seems a lot like him in some ways. I think the book tells women more about certain type of man than what it tells men about women. What I like about it most which I think he will too is the cover photo which I'm hoping to make an enlarged laminated copy of. Will post a link to that pic.

Being Australian, I'd never heard of Roger Welsch before, but apparently, he has a well-known television segment in Nebraska.

link removed

I'm posting again for a couple of reasons. I think that since I started this thread, more good things have been happening in my relationship, and it has even had a little test.

Another reason is that sooner or later, there might be another ENA member who is also in a relationship with an avoidant person who is happy in their relationship and within themselves - and that none of this is dependent on the avoidant being "cured into marriage"

I'm sort of surprised that the man in my life has actually begun initiating some very personal conversations, expressed some of his fears of vulnerability but then those conversations have finished with more trust and affection and happiness on both our sides.

On the weekend, we were out together. We went to a local eatery, and a woman there made a very public play for him. It was weird. When she first started, I was saying to myself, "Maybe I'm a being a little paranoid here", but she continued,and obviously thinks my man is very hot too. She made a point of completely ignoring me. LOL Man had a very big grin on his face. He was, typically, very flattered and his ego got a good pampering. I'm so glad I didn't spit the dummy, but as we walked away, I did say: "No, I don't think that was nice." and laughed. He told me: "I love it . . . . two women interested in me . . . and I can tell you're jealous." I didn't pursue the conversation, but I did notice he was extra loving and affectionate, and he did tell me he doesn't want to be with anyone but me. Then when I saw him today, he still had a big grin on his face, and it was the first thing he talked about. I stayed cool, and said to him that of course, if he would rather be with her, that's his choice, and okay, but I wouldn't be hanging around. He was laughing more, saying of course he doesn't want to be with her, blah, blah. I think I managed to keep my dignity and be very calm. I told him that of course I know if I think he is handsome and beautiful, then I can understand why other women would too, so again, his choice.

By nature, I believe myself to be quite insecure,and it can be a bit of a struggle for me to fight the urge to be cling. I did manage not to act on those feelings and I feel very good about that. I was told by my last 2 partners, when they were both seeing other women, who I found out later they had become involved with was that the problem was that I was insecure, and that if I wasn't I wouldn't have a problem with them seeing these women. I was deciding whether to get out of those relationships, right then, early on in those relationships. I should have. Instead, I chose to believe that I was simply insecure - that it was indeed my problem, and I always had a nagging problem with those women. I don't feel that way right now. I somehow do have this real gut feeling that David truly isn't interested in other women and that he doesn't even want to see this woman and will not encourage any contact with her. I don't believe that is because of any pressure from me either.

He's even started to feel different physically - the way he hugs me and looks at me, and talks to me. I think I have been making an effort to step back a little. I do a lot of my thinking while I'm in my car as I have to drive quite long disances on some quiet roads every day and put on some good music. I've been saying to myself that I will keep my eyes open and my heart just a little bit closed. Yes, I do love him, but at 9 months, it is still quite early days, and we're going to get to know each other more.

One of the things we have talked more about is doing things and living our lives ALONGSIDE each other, and he is obviously happy and excited at that. I'm happy about it too. Keeping my feet on the ground, but happy.