"Shy" or just not interested enough?

I'm especially interested in hearing comments from shy guys about this question I have:

One of my favorite dating books that I consider the bible (no disparaging remarks please!) says there is no such thing as a "shy" guy - that "shy" men are just not interested enough. It points out that "shy" men date and get married every day, and everyone goes after what they really, really want. It says that if a man is not pursuing you he's "just not that interested in you".

In my own life, I've had "shy" guys make a bold move if they've been drinking, or maybe through friends, but then it seems like they scuttle back into their shell and it's almost impossible to draw them out. I'm old-fashioned; I think in dating a man should pursue the woman *at first*. But now after reading through some threads in this forum I'm seriously questioning this. Some of the behaviors described fit some of my past situations to a 't': avoiding eye contact, clamming up and not saying anything, acting very cold and standoffish, etc. Is it really possible that some of the guys in my past have been shy, and I've just interpreted things incorrectly and written them off as "jerks"? It's hard for me to believe that so-called "shy" people really can lack basic social skills and courtesies and not know any better or be unable to do any better.

Please advise!

I am not a guy, but my husband is a "shy guy" and I was CONVINCED he wasn't interested in me the first night we met. I tried to flirt, talk, get him to open up, but he basically gave me one word answers, wouldn't look me in the eye, etc. Eventually I kissed someone else that night and gave up on him. It wasn't until he walked me home (even after I kissed someone else) and started talking to me more on MSN (we were long distance - over an ocean) that I really got to know him.

I don't know about the book you're reading, (and I won't make comments on whether it's accurate or not), but I think that in a lot of cases, crippling shyness DOES exist and can be very difficult for some men to overcome. If you are set on meeting a guy who does ALL the pursuing, then maybe a shy guy just isn't for you.

People are shy, and they have anxieties about approaching women or just talking to people they dont know period. Not every guy will go after what he wants, it seems that your book is simply providing you with the answer that you want to hear.

Personally I wouldn't agree with the book. A specific guy comes to mind (one of my bf's good friends) who is very shy, and that sort of disables him from approaching women even if they are in the "perfect" situations - ex: alone at the bar at a reasonable hour and looking to make conversation. He'll just over-analyze all the possible signals, and psyche himself out.

I would determine whether you want to date a guy who has 'shy' characteristics or not instead. I would not become the pursuer in this case, but I wouldn't mind being more lenient. You can start contacting him on a more regular basis or being more forwardly encouraging (compliments, touching him, eye contact etc...), just to get him going. I still wouldn't ask him out on a date, and limit activities to group ones until he is able to ask you out if you prefer the traditional method of dating. If not, just ask him out.

My husband was very very shy when we first dated and it took him a long time to get up the courage to ask me out (we worked at the same company). For me, personally, someone who's shyness was so crippling that he could not ask me out even if I showed interest in him was not the right guy for me. The majority of times I've heard "I think he's interested but he's just too shy" it was really "he's not that interested". Obviously there are exceptions.

My husband was very very shy when we first dated and it took him a long time to get up the courage to ask me out (we worked at the same company). For me, personally, someone who's shyness was so crippling that he could not ask me out even if I showed interest in him was not the right guy for me. The majority of times I've heard "I think he's interested but he's just too shy" it was really "he's not that interested". Obviously there are exceptions.

And this is the heart of my question.

I realize that not everyone has had the same opportunities for personal development like I have (i.e. learning social skills and etiquette, leadership experience, etc). But it's so hard for me to believe that someone who is "shy" DOESN'T know, on a very basic level, that ignoring someone, not talking to them, and acting cold are very rude. How can they not? Do they know but just don't care? Are they so paralyzed by their anxiety they just freeze? Is it a coping mechanism? Do they ever apologize for their behavior (if it's hurt you), or do they feel as if they've done 'nothing wrong'?

I have so many questions. This shyness forum has really made me re-think many of my pre-conceived ideas about relationships.

And this is the heart of my question.

 

I realize that not everyone has had the same opportunities for personal development like I have (i.e. learning social skills and etiquette, leadership experience, etc). But it's so hard for me to believe that someone who is "shy" DOESN'T know, on a very basic level, that ignoring someone, not talking to them, and acting cold are very rude. How can they not? Do they know but just don't care? Are they so paralyzed by their anxiety they just freeze? Is it a coping mechanism? Do they ever apologize for their behavior (if it's hurt you), or do they feel as if they've done 'nothing wrong'?

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I totally vote for that option. I am not generally shy - very outgoing, and I love to make jokes - but non-talkative introverts put me in "awkward mode" almost automatically. If on top of that I am crushing on an introvert - then yes, I've frozen before. I would imagine the same thing can happen to a guy. Other situations which make me uneasy also have me react like that - if I am grabbed from behind to go dance, in front of a large audience or camera etc... there is a possibility that I will just freeze like a deer in the headlights.

I think it's relatively easy to determine if someone is actually uninterested vs. shy though. To me someone uninterested acts completely normal and unphased, he's just nonchalant and doesn't open himself up very much. He'll respond if you initiate, but will never bother to do so himself. He will be fairly consistent.

A shy guy will usually act in an awkward manner, or have mannerisms which shows that he is nervous (eye contact - either way too much or not enough, being very stiff and standing up very tall, playing with clothes/hair or fidgeting, swallowing loudly etc...). He will always be very happy to see you when he does, and once he warms up he will open himself up to you some more. He'll slowly start to initiate by himself once he feels comfortable with you. His consistency lies only in the fact that he is inconsistent - he may have days where he is more shy than others.

And this is the heart of my question.

 

I realize that not everyone has had the same opportunities for personal development like I have (i.e. learning social skills and etiquette, leadership experience, etc). But it's so hard for me to believe that someone who is "shy" DOESN'T know, on a very basic level, that ignoring someone, not talking to them, and acting cold are very rude. How can they not? Do they know but just don't care? Are they so paralyzed by their anxiety they just freeze? Is it a coping mechanism? Do they ever apologize for their behavior (if it's hurt you), or do they feel as if they've done 'nothing wrong'?

 

I have so many questions. This shyness forum has really made me re-think many of my pre-conceived ideas about relationships.

The answer to those questions is yes. There are people out there with shyness that is so crippling that it limits their ability to interact socially with people. On the surface they DO know that clamming up and behaving that way comes accross as cold or rude, but they are literally frozen and unable to do anything else. Generally people like this have to undergo therapy and/or medication in order to overcome it.

My sister for example, was diagnosed with social anxiety disorder. It's an actual disorder.

"Social anxiety disorder (SAD or SAnD) (DSM-IV 300.23), also known as social phobia, is an anxiety disorder characterized by intense fear in social situations[1] causing considerable distress and impaired ability to function in at least some parts of daily life. The diagnosis of social anxiety disorder can be of a specific disorder (when only some particular situations are feared) or a generalized disorder. Generalized social anxiety disorder typically involves a persistent, intense, chronic fear of being judged by others and of being embarrassed or humiliated by one's own actions."

People like this (like my sister) are so crippled by these fears and insecurities that they sometimes have difficulty doing things like attending classes (for fear of people watching and judging them), talking to authority figures, or dating. It can be devastating.

I am not saying that every person you have had this happen with had Social anxiety disorder, but it DOES exist.

I agree with the above. It's a medical condition that runs in my family. I have an aunt who gets very nervous before any family gathering - if her condition is really bad then she just won't plain attend because of it. My mom also has a mild form of it, so I wouldn't be surprised that my 'deer in the headline' problem is also due to that. Nothing that I would go to therapy for of course. I also have very pronounced leadership and extroverted qualities, so I think everyone's profile will look different - it's a bad idea just to throw out a generalized statement about shy guys.

And this is the heart of my question.

 

I realize that not everyone has had the same opportunities for personal development like I have (i.e. learning social skills and etiquette, leadership experience, etc). But it's so hard for me to believe that someone who is "shy" DOESN'T know, on a very basic level, that ignoring someone, not talking to them, and acting cold are very rude. How can they not? Do they know but just don't care? Are they so paralyzed by their anxiety they just freeze? Is it a coping mechanism? Do they ever apologize for their behavior (if it's hurt you), or do they feel as if they've done 'nothing wrong'?

 

I have so many questions. This shyness forum has really made me re-think many of my pre-conceived ideas about relationships.

I think there is a shortcut answer to those questions - in the context of who you can see yourself seriously involved with are you ok with someone who approaches social situations in this way - I mean, even if the coldness/rudeness "disappears" once you get the ball rolling are you comfortable assuming that that type of behavior only happens when he wants to ask a woman out on a date? Obviously there are degrees of shyness, degrees of behavior, etc. I don't think acting hurtful to someone else can be excused by "I'm shy" but that's just my personal boundary. Sure, if it was a one time thing where he behaved rudely and then apologized "I act that way sometimes when I'm anxious, I'm truly sorry, I'm working hard on my issues!"(if he wanted to date you that is, otherwise the "work" part probably wouldn't be necessary), then fine. I don't think that someone who behaves rudely as you described is someone who's available for a serious relationship - I think that person should work on his behavior first before getting involved in a relationship.

Again there's a continuum -if a shy guy needs someone who's going to show significant interest in order to get the courage up to ask her out, then sure that could work just fine. It comes down to what are your boundaries and needs in a relationship.

By shortcut I mean it's a waste of time to psychoanalyze the "why" in this context -all you need to decide is what works for you -when you start delving into "well maybe he didn't have sufficient social opportunities" and this is someone you haven't even dated yet I just don't think that's a productive way to look at it since you're not his therapist (or his mother, I guess!).

I guess I'm asking these questions because I've done a lot of soul searching in the past several months...about myself. I think I may have been the problem in one such "shy guy" situation.

One guy I could see myself going back to if I had the opportunity. We met about 3 years ago and I thought we were a great match. It started out well. He pursued me at first (cautiously, through a friend), but then things got weird and never seemed to progress. I think I scared him off. I will admit I can be loud and somewhat obnoxious at times. I'm working on myself to "tone it down". He was/is extremely shy and introverted. During the time we dated, I was very passive about things. I wanted HIM to pursue ME. I didn't initiate a lot of contact with him because I didn't want to appear "pushy". But now I'm wondering if he interpreted that as low interest. I'm kicking myself now because I really did grow to care about him, but I think I may have turned him off somehow, and I really regret that. He broke things off, and of course I followed the traditional advice given on ENA to go No Contact. I never heard from him again and realize now I probably shouldn't be surprised.

I wish I could go back and have a "do over" with this guy. Maybe I'll start another thread about what happened.

I think I qualify as a shy guy and I've had some issues with social anxiety in the past. I'm much improved now but I still almost never initiate with strangers in bars even if I find them attractive. If a conversation starts naturally when I'm with friends or in a social function than I have no problem asking them out. I think I just have to be in the right setting and mood. I've really only gone into heavy pursuit mode a few times. I was buzzed each time at first but I still feel I made it clear to them that I was interested after the fact and I asked them out repeatedly. If I'm not that interested then I'll just stop asking them out and we will fall out of touch or I will tell them flat out if it seems like they are into me. I have very little tolerance when women get flaky, wait a long time to respond, or are unavailable when I ask them out. I take all those as signs they are not interested and I will move on.

 

But it's so hard for me to believe that someone who is "shy" DOESN'T know, on a very basic level, that ignoring someone, not talking to them, and acting cold are very rude. How can they not? Do they know but just don't care? Are they so paralyzed by their anxiety they just freeze? Is it a coping mechanism? Do they ever apologize for their behavior (if it's hurt you), or do they feel as if they've done 'nothing wrong'?

Did these guys ignore you all the time and NEVER talk to you? Did you ever talk to them first and they talk back? As a shy female I think it depends how well you know the other person. I really liked (and still like but have kind of moved on a bit) a shy guy - but as a shy girl myself I never knew what to say to him in person. We could say 'hi, how are you?' etc and then the conversation would dry up. I'm curious what you mean by them ignoring you. How well did you know them? If you both don't know each other then I could understand a guy 'ignoring you'. I actually go to a venue and see the same couple of guys working there all the time, the one guy is in a band, but I've never spoken to him. I actually feel bad that I've never spoken to him, we kind of walk past each other but we've never spoken and I hope he doesn't think it's ME who's rude. It's not really a case of 'ignoring' each other - just not knowing each other and me being shy. I don't know if he's shy or never felt the inclination to speak to me, but I am too shy to go up and speak to a guy I don't know - for the most part - unless I have a really good reason to do so. Whether these guys are shy or not, they may not be ignoring you on purpose. It depends on the scenario though. I have spoken to guys I like once I've gotten to know them a bit - but the initial starter is the worst. I'm bad at going up to people I don't know or even saying hi to people I'm not overly familiar with.

No. And what I mean by 'ignoring' is this: lack of eye contact, clamming up in social situations and not saying much, and not going out of their way to talk to me in social situations.

These are guys who were obviously interested, and put themselves out there to some degree to let me know they were interested. After I started to reciprocate then they would seem to cool off or go into a shell, and things got...uncomfortable...and confusing (for me at least). I'm more than willing to meet someone halfway, but these behaviors come off to me as cold and rude. *I* (as a non-shy person) would never act like that around someone unless I really despised them. Which brings me again to my original question - Is someone just "shy" or is that just an excuse?

Any GUYS have any insight on this?

From my own experience, they don't initiate but they reciprocate well - and don't really need a cooling off period. They have silly mannerisms, and will probably not jump right to you in a social situation. Usually they will stick around you if you keep talking. The tricky part is to get them to talk

I agree that it's not common behavior, and it is off putting. The happy signals they send you when you do interact with them just nullifies the fact that they can't seem to be bothered to initiate anything - and so you end up at a stand still. Personally, I'd just let this guy on the back burner. Keep acting like you would normally, and he may or may not decide that he's comfortable enough at some point to come clean. Keep dating others in the meantime. I've been told that these shy introvert guys like consistency above anything else, so just keep that in mind.

Though I have a cavalier attitude towards monogamy and the concept of relationships, I'm an extremely shy guy. I don't think I've ever done anything bold in my life, and my two relationships came about because the women involved took the initiative. I'm sure I have some sort of social anxiety disorder. Take it from me: someone can be extremely interested and still be too afraid to make the effort.

Also, I agree with Alezia that we reciprocate much better than we initiate, though we may struggle with reciprocation as well. When I was a senior in high school, a girl I'd had a serious crush on for six years (I said maybe five sentences to her during that time) hit on me out of nowhere, and I panicked and left the room. It took me a few more years before I could even begin to read a woman's signals, let alone reciprocate comfortably. I think that most shy guys are socially underdeveloped, with me being an extreme example. I'm probably at about high school level, by now.

When I was younger I was very shy and stand offish. I learnt in latter years that I missed many opportunities, unbeknown to me at the time. When i met the women of my dreams (now my wife) she made the move, because although I wanted to I was too shy. She simply gegan by talking to me and being heself and not pushing too hard. When I finally asked her out I was so nervious that it made me ill, but hey I did it. From a shy guys point of view all I can say is make yourself know to the guy without being pushy.

But it's so hard for me to believe that someone who is "shy" DOESN'T know, on a very basic level, that ignoring someone, not talking to them, and acting cold are very rude. How can they not? Do they know but just don't care? Are they so paralyzed by their anxiety they just freeze? Is it a coping mechanism? Do they ever apologize for their behavior (if it's hurt you), or do they feel as if they've done 'nothing wrong'?

...I've known many shy men ( myself included ), where the anxiety from our "love shyness" is so intense it feels almost like the room is suddenly on fire and you have to get away as fast as possible to save your life.

With my shyness there is no thought process happening, there is only the primal urge to get away at all costs, and trying to act "normal" paralyzes you completely. This only occurs when I don't really know the woman, or what she is thinking. Once the "ice is broken" though, then I'm not much different than any other guy.

I've had two LTRs ( 5 and 7 years ) and many STRs, so my shyness has not prevented me from having relationships, but this is almost always dependent on the woman making the first move. I'm usually OK or OK-enough to have a fun conversation if she makes the first move, as this puts me at ease, and I am happy to make all moves after this. ( but her move has to be blatant and obvious, if there is any room for misunderstanding, then I'm out of there in the blink of an eye )

...And worst of all is that I do not look or act ( in non-social situations ) like a shy guy, which has confused many women who stare and flirt from a distance, but don't understand why I am not responding to this.

this is interesting,

What would a shy guy do if the girl he was too afraid to approach gradually stopped giving signals because her own attraction was starting to wear off (because she figured she might as well give up because he isn't really reciprocating and runs away when there is an opportunity to make a move). would you work harder because you realize you are gonna lose the girl, or would you just let her get away?

SometimesShy, I had to do a lot of work on myself to be the right person for a relationship (and the work continues, within my relationship). What work have you done to decrease or prevent how you admittedly can be confusing in social situations and are you interested in widening your dating pool to include women who might be too shy to make a first move just like you are?

What would a shy guy do if the girl he was too afraid to approach gradually stopped giving signals because her own attraction was starting to wear off. Would you work harder because you realize you are gonna lose the girl, or would you just let her get away?

From my experience, shy men will assume that she's just not interested and will look for someone new.

I think this is a big part of the shy male behavior, where most shy men assume that every woman they meet is not interested unless she demonstrates her interest in a very direct way. Even receiving a shoulder or arm touch is not enough because there are lots of touchy-feely women who do this without meaning anything by it, so shy men learn to ignore this behavior unless the woman takes things further.

SometimesShy, I had to do a lot of work on myself to be the right person for a relationship (and the work continues, within my relationship).

I am absolutely great in a relationship. With my last LTR of 7 years with a surgeon, I had to break up with her 4 times over the course of 9 months, because she kept trying to win me back, when I knew that we were better off as friends. I didn't leave her for someone else, I just knew that I would never be happy in the long run with this woman, so I took 3 months to think about it ( and talked to most of my male and female friends ), and finally ended the relationship. In hindsight I should have ended the relationship much sooner, but I kept thinking that our compatibility would get better over time, which didn't happen. ( I've known couples that were an odd match at the start, but grew closer over time. I kept hoping this would happen with us. She was very inhibited and kind of a cold fish with me at times. She wasn't shy in any way, but she was emotionally shut down a lot of the time, and I did my best to try and draw her out, but she refused to acknowledge that she needed help. )

What work have you done to decrease or prevent how you admittedly can be confusing in social situations and are you interested in widening your dating pool to include women who might be too shy to make a first move just like you are?

Shy women are an impossible match for me. Neither of us will make the first move, and both of us will probably assume that the other person is not really interested, so nothing will ever happen.

For myself, I've had a lot of therapy, and I've spent a lot of time with group therapy with people like me ( men and women ), and recently I tried an "improv comedy" course which was surprisingly effective. I think I may pursue the "improv comedy" as it helps me explore sides of myself that I normally would never go near. It still feels very artificial and forced, but it's helped me to perform in situations where I would normally shut down. God knows if it will help with my dating life, but it has helped me get a little more comfortable in awkward situations.

Improv comedy is a great and fun idea as a potential solution! I took a few improv classes -good times.