This no contact in between dates is driving me crazy! Is he really interested?

Hi,

I apologize if this is long, but I really need people's input on my situation. I will put as many details as possible so it's easier to judge the situation.

I started exchanging messages with a man from an online dating Website back in September. We met at the beginning of October and saw each other four times so far. He is 35 years old. He has a good job and owns a house. His behavior with me has always been consistent. He seems genuinely interested when we are together and treats me well, but doesn't contact at all in between dates. He also never plans another date at the end of the current date. We usually simply tell each other we'll keep in touch. I've always been the one initiating contact, but he usually replies pretty quickly to my messages.

Our first date was on a Thursday. It went well. I sent him a little message the next day to thank him and to tell him I enjoyed the evening and that I hoped to get the chance to see him again soon. He replied positively and we set up another day for the following Monday evening.

During our second date, while discussing on a particular subject, he confessed he wanted me to contact him first after our first date. He said he wanted to make sure I was interested in seeing him again before asking me out on another date. I asked him: "What if I hadn't contacted you?" He said: "I would have contacted you eventually. Probably after a week." At the end of the evening, I was straight forward with him and told him that I was interested in seeing him again. He said he was really busy, but could be available Sunday evening. We didn't make any official plans though. We however kissed. The kiss was mostly initiated by me. What happened is he got out of his car and we talked for a few more minutes. We kissed on the cheeks and hugged. Then, he went for another kiss and I kind of targeted his mouth because it seemed like that's what he wanted as well. It was really all of a sudden, but we kissed for a minute or two and then we went our separate ways. When I got back home, I felt bad that I had initiated the kiss. I told him I was sorry and I hoped it wasn't too fast too soon. I said I was really looking forward to seeing him again. He replied that he indeed didn't expect a full kiss, that his plan was to kiss me on the cheeks, but that the kiss as of course better. He said that he was looking forward to seeing me again as well. He added that he really wanted to take the time to get to know me. He said he didn't want to be in a relationship after four dates only. I replied that I totally agree. I said I just wanted to go with the flow, no pressure and that we still need to get to know each other for sure.

After that second date and that first kiss, I waited for him to contact me. And I waited. And I waited. And I waited. I waited 5 days. I waited until Sunday morning to contact him. After that long, I just usually move on. But since I was really interested in him, I decided to contact him again. Again, I was straight forward. I asked how he was and I said I was still interested in seeing him again if he was as well. He replied almost instantly that he was. He said he was sick pretty much all week last week, but that we could get together again Monday evening or Tuesday evening. We planned to play pool on Tuesday evening.

Tuesday morning, I contact him to confirm the plans with him. I haven’t heard from him since Sunday morning. He tells me he is still sick and doesn’t really feel like going out, but that I could come to his place to watch a movie. He said he really wanted to see me. I decided to wait because he lives in an area I’ve never been to and I didn’t feel comfortable driving there for the first time on a Tuesday night when it’s dark. I asked him if he was available Saturday instead. He said he was busy Thursday, Friday and Saturday, but it could be okay for Sunday. So, we went with Sunday.

This was last Sunday actually. I wasn’t sure it was good idea because, again, I didn’t hear from him all week last week after we planned the date. But I finally went to his place. It was nice. We were both reserved at the beginning, but when we got on the couch to watch the movie, the started cuddling. He caressed my arm and we kissed and one thing led to another. We ended up sleeping together. We stayed in bed afterward and continued talking for maybe 30/45 minutes. That’s when we got to discuss the “relationship”. He said I looked sad. I wasn’t sad, but I wasn’t sure I did the right thing by sleeping with him because I didn’t know his level of interest. This conversation is not in order totally, but I said: “I’m not sad. I just want to take my time. I don’t want to do any mistakes, you know.” He said: “We’re seeing each other and it’s fun, but I don’t want to go too fast. I still feel you are shy with me and I still don’t know you.” I didn’t how to take that answer, but I didn’t like it. So, I told him, probably because I was looking for a clear indication, that I had other dates since the last time we saw each other because I didn’t know if he was really that interested in me. He asked me why and I said it’s because he didn’t contact me in between the dates. He said he thought about me and it’s true he could have contacted me, but that he didn’t think I would think he wasn’t interested because of that. He also said he would not have invited me to his place and slept with me if he wasn’t interested. I said it doesn’t indicate anything. You can sleep with someone and want nothing from them. He ask if it was the case for me and I said: “Of course not!!! I’m just saying.” Plus, he said that I’ve always been the one contacting him since the beginning. I don’t know what he meant by that, but I hope he doesn’t think I will do it all the time!!! I said I didn’t really want to meet other guys and that I wouldn’t if I had gotten a clear sign from him that he was interested in me. He said he can’t promise me anything right now and I understand. We’ve only seen each other four times. I don’t want the relationship to have a label yet. He said he doesn’t want to meet other people because it is a lot of work. And it’s true. We talked about random things and he asked me how I like a guy to be with me, if I like him to hold my hand in public and things like that. So, anyway, he kept caressing my body while we were talking lying on the bed. I asked what the plan was now. He said we could see each other again Tuesday night, which was last night. At the end, he accompanied me to my car outside. We kissed and hugged again. He asked me to message him when I get home and I did. I thanked him again and I said I had a great time. He said he had a good time as well and told me to have a good night. I said: “Thanks! Good night! xox He replied: “xox I was somehow happy. It looked good. He didn’t contact me Monday though. It’s was the usual no contact in between dates.

Last night, we saw each other again. It was nice. We were supposed to go play pool, but he was too tired. So, we went to his place. When I got there, we kissed and hugged. We talked for a while and then decided to watch a movie. Again, we cuddled, kissed, acted like a couple. We slept together after the movie and continued talking a little bit afterward on the bed. He did say at some point that we has really busy and that he was trying to make time for everything, meaning working on his different projects, seeing his friends and spending time with me now. I thought it was a good sign somehow. Anyway, when I left, we kissed and hugged. He didn’t accompany to my car though. He asked me to message him when I get home and I did as usual. I said that I had a great time and that I couldn’t wait to see him again and told him good night with “xox”. He said he enjoyed the evening as well and told me goodnight, but no “xox” like Sunday night. I know these are minor details, but it kind of worried me for some reason. Oh, and again, we didn’t plan another date. I didn’t want to push him either. So, I just said: “Ok, we’ll talk again soon!”

And here I am today wondering what to think and what to do. I know we’ve only see each other four times, but we’ve been that’s enough for me to know I’m interested in someone. And when I’m interested in someone, I’m not interested in meeting other people. And I want to contact the person and spend time with them relatively often. I like to have some space, but I also like to show the other person I’m thinking about them. I’m all for taking things slow, but without knowing his level of interest, it’s harder. I just don’t know what to do at this point. We saw each other last night and didn’t talk at all today. Should I contact him tomorrow and ask him what he is up to this weekend? Should I wait for him to contact me? I know it’s stupid, but I’m afraid if I don’t contact him for a few days, he’ll think I’m not that interested and just move on. I know if he really likes me, he’ll contact me for sure. But I guess I’m just being irrational here. This no contact is driving me crazyyyyy!!!!!!! Another thing too… He seems to always be busy on Saturdays. We haven’t seen each other on a Saturday yet. I know he’s a busy guy, but I’m starting to wonder if he really has time for someone else right now. He acts genuinely interested when we are together. It’s just in between. I don’t know what to think of it. Does his age have anything to do with it maybe? Is it simply how he is? I don’t know if it’s legitimate for me to feel this way.

Sorry for the book, ahaha!

And thanks in advance for your input, guys.

I have another question as well that I forgot to ask in my initial post. Is it too early or too much to message him once a day? (Just to say "Have a good day!" or "Have a good night!")

Ha ha, if I'm not wrong, I feel like he's trying to play a game with you, in other words to intrigue you. Next time he texts you say "Hey Mr.Hard to get , wuz up?"

LOL I kissed my guy on the 2nd date and we are seeing each other again this Saturday. He sent the last text but I have talk to him for 4 days.

I used to be into texting, but I totally hate it. I prefer to meet people in person. So if I were you, I would set up a plan and confirm a date. Text or call, shouldn't bother you at all. Heck, I even turn off the notifications on my cellphone for text messages the past few days because I constantly check my phone and I wanna break that habit. I don't feel like carrying a conversation over a text message whether it's the guy I'm seeing, or my family, or friend. I tell them Im busy with a project and the best way to reach me is to call me and set up a plan to hang out. Other than that, I'm not going to let you keep me waiting or be some sort of entertainment for your boredom.

Put time into your hobbies and that makes you happy and self-improve yourself. Or else you'll depend on him/other people in your life for your fun which you should never do.

Hey Zebrelle, all I can say is, I'd be interested in you for sure. You look and sound very attractive.

Anyway, I think it all sounds pretty good on the whole. Nothing much to seriously worry about, going by your detailed account of things. I don't do much contacting inbetween dates either, even if I am very interested. Apparently it's annoying to women, but I just can't be bothered to be hanging on the phone all the time. And he probably feels similarly. At our age you just trust that a certain amount of contact will have to do. As long as you keep seeing each other, what does one more or less text or email really matter ?!

So I agree with "The Seeker" in that you might want to keep busy living your own life and that way maintain your independence. Say, you're busy working out or ..painting..whatever, time will fly by, you'll be satisfied with yourself and have no time to worry about one text or call more or less. And he should notice this and find it more appealing than if you become clingy and keep banging on about "what's your interest-level really ?". That does get somewhat annoying to a guy pretty quickly, even though it's flattering at first, especially from an attractive girl like you. - He is interested, he WILL come back sooner or later. And I think he IS interested in you.

Strangely enough, the way of the world seems to have it, that the more independent and genuinely self-satisfied we are, the more attractive we are to others.

(Tell that to someone in love...)

uh thats like most guys i date. I'm kind of used to being the one initiating contact.... Usually if they respond to you in a timely fashion, it's good. If they don't respond to you on the same day or wait a long time to respond, that means they are not that interested.

So he sounds like he's interested so far but nothing to really woriied about. I would say he does sound really busy but he also sound like he's a lazy dater (so far).

Thanks for your input, guys. It is much appreciated. I do move along with my life. I'm hoping for his call, but I'm not waiting it. However, it's getting me frustrated that he doesn't contact me. I do agree with you that he seems interested when we are together. The problem is when we are not together. I wouldn't mind not communicating in between dates IF he at least planned another date at the end of the current one. But he doesn't unless I initiate it. I don't want a man to hang out with me because he can. I want a man to hang out with me because he wants to. So far, I've always been the one initiating the contacts and the dates. If he was interested, he wouldn't want me to meet other guys. He would want to make sure not to lose me. He would be excited about seeing me and spending time with me. I don't feel that at the moment. I feel more like an option to him. I don't like that. I don't want to a lazy dater. You are right, chr8st8na, it does seems like he is one. But we show people how to treat us, right? Perhaps, it's my fault to a degree. But I just want to mention that I didn't contact him daily. I always waited 2 or 3 days and, then, 5 days one time.

So, what do I do now? I still haven't heard from him today. Is the consensus that I should wait for him to contact me? I must admit I find it hard to control myself. I hate games and I hate acting like I don't care. If it would have been for me, I would have sent him a "Have a nice day! message this morning.

Eh, I am not impressed with him and his lack of effort so far. I would stop initiating contact and see what happens, if you don't hear from him then he wasn't worth it anyways.

Update: He sent me a message an hour ago. I'm actually surprised, but I'm not sure it's totally good. He asked how was my day and said his was good. He said his boss took him out for his birthday. I said it was nice of her to do that and asked if his friends planned to take him out as well. He replied that, yes, next week will probably be busy and his parents are taking him out for diner as well. I asked him when exactly was his birthday, that he told me it was next week, but not exactly when. I jokily said I was going to buy him Skittles. (Because when we went to the movies a few weeks ago, he bought Skittles and said these are his favorite candies.) He replied with a short sentence, but didn't answer me as to when was his birthday. I asked what his friends were planning to do for him and he just replied that he will probably have dinner with them and that's all. Then, as I was typing another reply, he sent me another message and told me he would talk to me later because he was at his friend's place to watch hockey with his friends. Then he sent me another one a few seconds later saying "Have a nice evening!" I replied: "Ok! Have a nice evening as well! xox" And that was pretty much it.

So, is that good or bad? It's the first time he actually contacts me in between dates... but he didn't ask me out again. I'm kind of happy, but not really at the same time.

Whew!!....that was quite the read!...lengthwise I mean (lol)

Zebrelle you're just fine! You're in the beginning stages of a relationship and it's just a bit frustrating with the contact thing for "you"......You never know "you" maybe frustrating him in some way that you're unaware of! (but probably not) But you will never know till he "tells" you.

So how can you fix this....simple!! A girl I was dating came out and told me to my face so I would understand "Listen! I want texts through the week from you!!" I'm a guy over the age of 30 and texts meant "absolutely NOTHING to me!!" texts are what little girls do!!.......only when I had began to understand that's what she wanted, and they actually made her feel good? I wanted to talk to her on the phone, or in person.....and she wanted "texts?" But after awhile I started to enjoy texting.

"Generally speaking, "texts are silly" to guys over the age of 30!"....

By your "little book" you wrote (lol), this guy is definitely interested in you and definitely wants things to go further. He "wants" to be sure you're interested in him......

he confessed he wanted me to contact him first after our first date. He said he wanted to make sure I was interested in seeing him again before asking me out on another date. I asked him: "What if I hadn't contacted you?" He said: "I would have contacted you eventually. Probably after a week."

....see!

We however kissed. The kiss was mostly initiated by me. What happened is he got out of his car and we talked for a few more minutes. We kissed on the cheeks and hugged. Then, he went for another kiss and I kind of targeted his mouth because it seemed like that's what he wanted as well. It was really all of a sudden, but we kissed for a minute or two and then we went our separate ways.

....see!

He added that he really wanted to take the time to get to know me. He said he didn't want to be in a relationship after four dates only.

....He's there for the long term

After that second date and that first kiss, I waited for him to contact me. And I waited. And I waited. And I waited. I waited 5 days. I waited until Sunday morning to contact him. After that long, I just usually move on. But since I was really interested in him, I decided to contact him again. Again, I was straight forward. I asked how he was and I said I was still interested in seeing him again if he was as well. He replied almost instantly that he was.

....If you want to be straight forward tell him "I WANT TEXT'S FROM YOU!!"......guys understand this language!

He said: “We’re seeing each other and it’s fun, but I don’t want to go too fast. I still feel you are shy with me and I still don’t know you.”

....again, He's there for the long term

He also said he would not have invited me to his place and slept with me if he wasn’t interested. I said it doesn’t indicate anything. You can sleep with someone and want nothing from them. He ask if it was the case for me and I said: “Of course not!!! I’m just saying.” Plus, he said that I’ve always been the one contacting him since the beginning.

....you lost a point there!!

At the end, he accompanied me to my car outside. We kissed and hugged again. He asked me to message him when I get home and I did. I thanked him again and I said I had a great time. He said he had a good time as well and told me to have a good night. I said: “Thanks! Good night! xox He replied: “xox I was somehow happy. It looked good. He didn’t contact me Monday though.

.....see!! he know's how to use the texting device....tell him you want more!!

I said that I had a great time and that I couldn’t wait to see him again and told him good night with “xox”. He said he enjoyed the evening as well and told me goodnight, but no “xox” like Sunday night.

.....That doesn't mean anything!!

I know we’ve only see each other four times, but we’ve been that’s enough for me to know I’m interested in someone. And when I’m interested in someone, I’m not interested in meeting other people. And I want to contact the person and spend time with them relatively often. I like to have some space, but I also like to show the other person I’m thinking about them. I’m all for taking things slow, but without knowing his level of interest, it’s harder. I just don’t know what to do at this point.

....the way you want to do something, doesn't mean that's the way he does it

Should I contact him tomorrow and ask him what he is up to this weekend? Should I wait for him to contact me? I know it’s stupid, but I’m afraid if I don’t contact him for a few days, he’ll think I’m not that interested and just move on. I know if he really likes me, he’ll contact me for sure. But I guess I’m just being irrational here. This no contact is driving me crazyyyyy!!!!!!!

.....you might as well contact him, you have every other time. But I don't think he's going to be available until Sunday! I see the pattern....

Another thing too… He seems to always be busy on Saturdays. We haven’t seen each other on a Saturday yet. I know he’s a busy guy, but I’m starting to wonder if he really has time for someone else right now.

.....and now you see it!!

It's just leaping out of your words at me.......I think he has very little money?? You say he has a good job but that doesn't mean he isn't broke!! Maybe he has an ex or an ex with kids that "cleaning" him out???

I just see your dates being at a pool hall, at his house watching a movie, (although at home watching a movie is sometimes better) not available on Friday and Saturday nights where the money is being spent......all great ways not to spend money.

I maybe wrong, but his actions (by what you describe) are that of a 35yr old man without cash. If so, this would explain the silence.......he's embarrassed!! and humiliated and as long as you're making 1st contact he's in the position to say he's sick so come over to my house, etc.

But don't hold it against him if that is the case, he's just short on cash right now.....

Your 2nd question....yes! definitely text him everyday!!

That's my input.

It seems promising that he initiated...my recent ex was kind of weird in the beginning. He would not initiate..and then have periods of initiating...I remember he went like 2 days of not responding to my txts (which pissed me off) in the very beginning. I called him out on it and he said sorry he didn't really feel like talking. We ended up together for 2.5 years (HOWEVER, he broke up with me twice due to confusion, not ready for relationship, grass is greener, boredom...so watch out)

Holy cow, check out that analysis from Professional.

LOL Professional, you make me look lazy.

Thanks for your input, Professional. He is not broke at all though. Actually, it's quite the reverse. He definitely has money. He has a nice house that he renovated with high end materials. Plus, he always pays for me even when I tell him I don't want him to. Really, I don't think that's the issue. At some point, I thought it was related to confidence because he wanted to be sure I was interested before asking me out on a second date. However, it's also because he seemed to lack confidence in the bedroom. When we slept together last Sunday, he thought I was not enjoying it because of I told him to do it more slowly. He seemed SO concerned. It surprised me. I had to reassure him. It wasn't anything bad. It was just part of the learning process in my opinion. We need to learn each others bodies. We don't all like the same things. Anyway... He should still know by now that I'm genuinely interested in him long term wise.

But, as I mentioned in my previous post, he did contact me 3 hours ago. He didn't ask me out though. We just exchanged a few messages. I don't know if it's good or not.

raton44, yes, I guess it does seem promising. At least, there is some progress. It's true that the beginning of a relationship is always kind of stressful or weird. You're still learning each others boundaries. I hate it honestly.

Am I correct that you two have never had a weekend date?

Batya33, you are correct. So far, we have seen each other on a Thursday evening, a Monday evening, a Sunday evening and a Tuesday evening. We've never spent a Saturday evening together and we've never had any daytime dates. I never asked him why he was always busy on Saturdays. I know his Friday evenings are always busy because he plays hockey and curling. I also know he is working on some committee project on Wednesday evenings. I think he plays golf every Sunday mornings as well. He is really busy.

Now that he's contacted me, should I still wait for him to ask me out?

The first girl I ever dated (at 24), I never contacted her between dates for the first month or so. It wasn't that I didn't like her--I did, very much so--it's that I didn't know any better. I guess I was partly afraid that talking to her every day would be coming on too strong, which I thought would scare her away; so I only called her once every other week. I was young and naive! But at the same time, I had few friends at the time and usually saw them in person instead of calling them, so the idea of having a phone conversation with someone to talk about "nothing" was foreign to me--I thought I needed a reason to call her.

So there's a few possible reasons for this, in my mind. (I'm no expert, so do what you want with this.) It's possible that he's afraid of being too "aggressive" with you, fearing that such would cause him to lose you. Perhaps in his past he was aggressive with a girl initiating all the contact and such and she turned him down flat, and he blamed the fact for the loss on the idea that he was upfront with her rather than the fact she just had no interest in him.

It's also possible he's depressed and has a low self-esteem (like many people these days), and as such he simply cannot believe someone would love lowly him. After all if he can't love himself why would someone else? And so his mind will come up with all sorts of excuses like "she only loves me because she doesn't really know me that well" or "she just feels pity for me" or other far meaner things. In this circumstance he might not believe it even if you told him straight, and he'll need a lot of time and love to work through his self-esteem issues.

I would let him ask since you've been doing quite a bit of the pursuing. I have a feeling he is going on dates on Saturday nights or trying to meet people to date.

NFalcon, let me ask you this then: If she hadn't contacted you, would you have contacted her then?

Batya33, it's a possibility. But, then, I can't control how he spends his time when I'm not around and I can't control how he feels about me either. And, really, is there anything more I can do at this point? I made it clear, on more than one occasion, that I want to spend time with him. We saw each other four times and it's mostly because I told him I wanted to see him. If he still wants to meet other women, I can't do anything about it. However, I think if it's the case, he should be honest because I don't waste my time. So, I think I'll wait for him to ask me out and, if or when he does, I'll have a little discussion with him. I guess if he doesn't ask me out again, the answer will be clear. And if he does and I get the chance to discuss the issue with him, I should get a clear answer as well.

It sounds like he's pretty interested but two things bother me: the no dates on Saturdays and him not telling you his birthday. I think it might have been a mistake to sleep with him so fast when he wants to take things kind of slow in the relationship department, but since you already did it you can't really go back now. It doesn't sound like he's using you for sex but it sounds like he might be afraid to commit to a full relationship too. I'd ask him what he is doing on Saturdays if I were you. I'm not saying he's seeing another woman but it's weird that he will never go out with you on that day.

She actually never contacted me of her own accord, save for the first date--and on that occasion, after I asked her out she said she couldn't make that date, but promised to get back to me with a different date, which I'm assuming is the only reason she took the initiative. I'm wondering if that's part of the reason it didn't work out.

So to answer your question, I did contact her. Every time. Because she didn't contact me. Though that meant waiting two weeks between phone calls. Eventually a friend found out what was going on and was all "what do you think you're doing? Don't you know proper dating protocol? I thought you were madly in love with her?" and I upped the phone calls to twice a week. (Pathetic, I know. Everyone learns sometime, right?)

But to me at least it seems like he loves you, even if he doesn't seem to know how to express that properly, so you've got that going for you. Of course one solution would be to ask him directly why he doesn't contact you between dates. Maybe he doesn't understand that he doesn't need a reason to call. (Or maybe that was just me.)

I wouldn't be too worried about why certain nights are off-limits. Some people have things that come up. I practice with a group on Sunday nights. Saturday night might not be party night for everyone. Still, asking would provide clarity, instead of forcing your mind to take wild stabs in the dark at it.

I hate to be Negative Nancy, but I don't think this sounds particularly promising. He doesn't sound disinterested, but he doesn't sound nearly as interested as you are. I also don't consider hanging out at his place and then having sex a "date"... half of your interaction with him has been sex, which isn't exactly the best way to approach a solid relationship. Again, I think he may be mildly interested, but if he were as interested in you as you are in him, he would be attempting to get to know you. Having conversations with you. Slowly integrating you into his life, even if that just meant hanging out with you on weekends or letting you in on his birthday plans, etc. Just my opinion. You have done 100% of the initiating until now, and he's aware enough of that to point it out to you. I absolutely would not initiate another date until he does. And I'd keep my options open... it sounds like he is.

But to me at least it seems like he loves you

Where in the WORLD are you getting that? LOL. He said he doesn't even feel like he knows her.

I'm sorry but if you don't want a lazy dater, then this guy is prob not for you. I have a feeling that you will wait for his text hoping that he will ask to see you again. If it happens, just don't expect it to be at a fancy restaurant or to an art exhibition. It'll most likely be at his house watching a movie and he'll call in for pizza delivery. I know these guys... these are the guys I date. haha...

I'm with cali chick on this one.

You are in hot pursuit of this man, and he's not even asking you out on proper dates. In turn this is leaving you feeling insecure and wondering where you stand. At 35 this man is no dummy - he knows that women like to be called and taken out and pursued, not the other way around. By going to his house and having sex with him when he's not even contacting you is like serving yourself up like a pizza. He doesn't even have to work for it.

Men value what they have to work for which is why they love things like sports and hunting - the chase and the prize. No amount of nudging him is going to make a difference; a man will always do what he wants to do. If he wanted to call you, he would. If he wanted to text you, he would. If he wanted to take you out on a Saturday, he would. He is making lame excuses for why he isn't doing any of those things, and if you're being honest with yourself, it leaves you feeling lacking and insecure.

Girl I know how hard dating is and it especially sucks when you meet one you like and you feel the lack of pursuit from him. But this does NOT mean you pick up the slack for him. He should be doing all of the heavy lifting here, and your job is to be receptive to his pursuit. That's it.

I would NOT contact him again. Be prepared for the fact that he might not get in touch. You know what that's ok - you don't want a lazy-ass man who can't take you out properly and maintain contact between dates. Get back on that dating website and put yourself out there. There ARE men who will pursue you and there's a reason that feels good to a woman; it's just how it is.