"You know your father loves you, he just doesn't know how to show it."

My parents divorced when I was 2. Their relationship was rocky - my father was an alcoholic, a forever "man child" who, at age 46, still lives with his mother and pays no bills. He also has had some anger issues, and that made being around him as a child pretty frightening.

I do have some good memories of him. HOWEVER, since the age of about...11, 12, I have felt a noticeable absence.

He lives one hour away from me, but I see him on average about once per year, sometimes less. During my teen years, he never bothered visiting. He came to my sweet 16, and I did not see him again until my high school graduation. He only called around once every few months, and our conversations were always short and awkward. I'll never forget one time, I hadn't seen him in 2 years. He was coming to my area to visit someone else. I was working that day, and asked him if he wouldn't mind waiting an extra hour until I got out of work, so I could see him. He said sorry but no, and left.

He never paid my mother child support, he forgot my birthday, he didn't help me buy my first car...he didn't come to look at colleges with me. In 4 years, he never even visited me at college or sent a letter. He couldn't remember what I was studying half the time. He never met my long term boyfriend of 6+ years.

My family always reassures me (especially his mother and aunt) saying "Oh, you know your father loves you, he's just bad at showing it!" But I've always wondered,

HOW am I supposed to know it? Do you just "KNOW" because he's your dad? Does that automatically mean he loves you? How are you supposed to feel loved when the man isn't bothered?

So what do you all think? I've struggled a long time with my feelings about him.

The strangest part is, he seems very deluded about our relationship - he seems to think (or pretend to think) we're quite close, have a special father/daughter bond and reminds me of this whenever we talk. I'm always just dumbfounded when he says those things and never know how to respond. I'm an adult now, and I still can't figure out my relationship with him.

I struggled with something similar for years with my own father, and eventually came to the conclusion that I was trying to make sense of something senseless, i.e. someone else's alcohol-fuddled, emotionally damaged mind. I guess everyone who has a relationship will have a perception of it which is different to that of the other person, and that perception is a reflection of the way THEY are.

However, an addicts's perception of reality is likely to be radically different to that of someone who isn't addicted, which is where this gap in your respective experiences really starts to show. It isn't surprising that you're dumbfounded when he says things which are wildly out of kilter with reality - but it doesn't mean they're not real to him.

My advice to you is to establish very clearly in your own mind where the boundaries are; i.e. what's your 'stuff' and what's his. For example, his inability to have a father/daughter relationship with you is HIS problem; but when it starts to affect you, it becomes your problem. You can choose to accept that that's the way he is, with his mother and your aunt colluding with it, and really not take it personally - because, at the end of the day, this really isn't about you, but about his own shortcomings which he then tries to deny.

(If your relationship genuinely had the bond which he wishes it had, he wouldn't need to keep reminding you of it. It's just wishful thinking on his part, and he needs to keep reassuring himself.)

To fill the gap left by not having a father figure, you can seek out a variety of guys who can fulfil that role; I have benefited enormously from having male therapists, for example. It is important that you find someone, or several people, who can fill the gap or it may have consequences for your own relationships. Though the fact that you know that your relationship with your father was lacking, and haven't just accepted it as the norm, is very healthy.

You're never going to get that genuine, selfless love from someone who hasn't got it to give - and no addict has. You're never going to feel loved by him, because he's not capable of giving what most of us would understand by love, but you can accept that he's doing his best - given who he is. This is important for your own peace of mind, and will help you let go of some of the craziness which wasn't yours in the first place.

However, just because your father couldn't love you, it doesn't mean that nobody else will.

You might also find it beneficial to have a look at some of the support groups around, such as Al-Anon, or ACOA; it could be that you've detached enough not to make this necessary, but rest assured that you really are not alone!

(((HUGS)))

I think nutbrownhare's answer is wonderfully well thought-out and worded, and I agree whole heartedly.

I hope it helps you. Hugs.

Thank you both

nutbrownhare, that was excellent, thank you so much for taking the time to write that, I appreciate it more than you know! With regards to filling the void with other figures - I think I've done okay there. I had a wonderful boyfriend for years, my grandfather and my uncles are all very loving, so I'm definitely not devoid of any positive male relationships, thank goodness.

I'm really sorry that you can relate, although it's refreshing to hear from someone who knows what they're talking about. My close circle of friends all have good relationships with their fathers and they don't really understand or know what to say when I bring him up.

I'm afraid to be one of those victim-minded people who says "Boohoo, my dad doesn't love me!" - because well, maybe he does? Maybe in his own mind he thinks he shows enough. I don't really know if he loves me or not. Right now I'm not upset about it, just pensive I suppose. I'm not sure if I love him either. I did when I was younger, but right now he feels like a ghost to me. I just wish things were different.

And the annoying thing is, I know this charade will be kept up forever. My family, aside from him, is very very close, and I'm exceptionally close to his side too. They talk about him all the time, they all think he's a great Dad, they think we're close (???) and I'd hate to give them a reality check because I know they and he will be in my life forever. Sometimes I wonder if I should talk to him about it and shatter his illusion because that may improve things - but then I wonder if I care enough to even want to change things? I'm content with my life and family as it is I think, I'm not sure I crave a relationship with him anymore. I feel like he's had plenty of time to make it right and now as an adult, I can choose whether I still want that or not.

If it's not too personal, nutbrownhare, may I ask if you still keep in contact with your dad?

You can't choose your parents, and they are what they are... and unfortunately, you don't need a license to be a parent either, so some people are good parents and love being parents, and other people are lousy parents and don't want the responsibility or for that matter may not even have wanted children to begin with.

Just remember that your self worth has nothing to do with whether he loves you or acts the way a good parent should. He is who he is, and his behavior will reflect who he is and his own value system of what is important to him. And obviously alcohol is at the top of his list, and parenting was never anything he was good at or put any effort into.

I think some parents try really hard to maintain that their child's other parent is a good parent or pretend he loves the children just because they don't know what else to say or do. But that increases a feeling of dishonesty and confusion in the children, when one parent consistently tries to force the other parent to be a good parent or keeps insisting that the irresponsible and uninvolved parent loves you when all their behavior really proves is that they are wrapped up in themselves and not particularly interested in parenting or a relationship with their child.

So your mother/aunt insisting 'he loves you in his own way' really is a bit of brainwashing they do with themselves and you, because they really WANT you to have a good father, but the reality is he just is a terrible father and wasn't particulary interested in being a parent (and still isn't).

So it gets easier for you if you just admit, this is who he is, an alcoholic with signficant problems who isn't particularly interested in being a parent. It has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with who he is. Having children is a biological event, but being a parent requires good character and a desire to parent combined wtih an ability to bond and put other people ahead of yourself, and many people honestly just aren't up for that task.

But you are an adult now, and can see and understand the complexities of life. Perhaps your father doesn't love anyone at all, and like many alcoholics, the true love of his life is drinking and being taken care of and he has no desire whatsover to take care of anyone else or be responsible to them either. Realistically, not everyone is a good parent or even 'checked into' a relationship with their children... they became parents due to a biological event of conception, yet emotionally, they are unprepared and uninterested in it. He is what he is, and you're an adult now and don't 'need' him, though of course it is better for all of us to have loving parents, sometimes the reality just doesn't turn out that way. If you accept that and work to get enough loving people in your life, you will do just fine regardless of how he behaves.

Thank you both

If it's not too personal, nutbrownhare, may I ask if you still keep in contact with your dad?

Sadly, it's an option I don't have, as he committed suicide in 1983 - but that's a whole other story, and a long time in therapy! - however, the issues this threw up about boundaries, trying to make sense of something which wasn't mine in the first place, the terribly ambivalent conflicting emotions, would apply to anyone who had a close relation with an alcoholic. It's just that mine were heightened because of the extreme trauma of that event.

I can relate totally to what you say about him feeling like a ghost to you, and I do wonder how much contact I'd have if he were still alive. I just don't know.

There was a time when I tried to give the family 'reality checks' about the way things really are, but have come to the conclusion that people will come to that realisation if and when they're ready to - and I think that's better coming from someone outside the family, or it will feel like a great betrayal. Interestingly, when family therapists first start their training, one of the first things they're told is that they absolutely CANNOT help their own families.

You're probably right that the charade will be kept up for ever; it certainly will be unless someone faces a crisis which means that they have to examine all their assumptions and expectations. My advice to you is to continue as you are - and well done for being so perceptive about your own situation, and for having created such a healthy life for yourself despite your background! Of course, if anyone else in the family does decide to 'break ranks' you will be well equipped to support them, but they'd need to have a very good reason to go through all the pain and trauma of that in the first place.

When you wonder if you care enough to even want to change things - I guess it can be reframed; not so much about not caring (which you obviously do!) as being accepting of others and their limitations - which is actually very loving. Certainly more loving than wanting to change others so they can fulfil our own needs. This doesn't mean that you won't experience regret from time to time, but that's being accepting of yourself.

I guess, reading back through both this post and the previous one, is that the key is 'acceptance', which doesn't necessarily mean tolerance of something you find intolerable (e.g. don't maintain a damaging relationship from a sense of guilt) but more an absence of denial, evaluating a situation for what it really is and then making your decisions accordingly. And it sounds as though you're well on your way!

This is the same line I get from my mother. I have no idea if my father loves me or not and still to this day I don't. My father was abusive and neglectful and at times did not even have the necessities of life for me and my brother. He had someone in the house that was raping me and then when he found out and he made all steps possible to make sure HE was not blamed. When I was six I was a passenger the car, and he was trying to kill my mother by running her over. I ALWAYS wanted to know my father loved me. About 30 years old I realized he was ALWAYS going to be who he is, ALWAYS. He is mentally ill and he was abused and ignored as a kid and he did not know how to be a better father. He also left home and had to care for himself since he was 15. He had no clue how to be a dad. Can I blame him for that? No. I was mad for a good long time though. I realised I was only hurting myself and just stopped. He did some really evil evil things in life and has said some pretty evil and nasty things to me but I realise WHY he does it. I know it is hard, I really do, but I think you will be a lot happier if you just let it all go. Realise he is who he is and if you want a relationship with him take what you can from it and if you don't , then just don't but don't beat yourself up anymore.

Do I have a relationship with my dad? Yes, limited. I talk to him a few times a year and I see him a few times a year. I want what I can from my dad while he is around because his health is failing and who knows when I won't have a dad. I do not want any regrets.