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Why do you want children??


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open-ended question inspired by a passage written by Khalil Gibran. i'm afraid i'm a bit cynical when it comes to this topic...and i'm thinking that has alot to do with my own history, and some of the assumptions i'm inclined to make based on that history. so...in those terms...i won't present specific questions, as i feel that would clearly expose my internal bias. openness feels more appropriate.

 

my personal opinion...i can't imagine having children on terms other than what's been expressed in this passage:

 

"And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, 'Speak to us of Children.'

And he said:

 

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable."

 

so...why do you want children?

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Well... when I found out we had one on the way, I was completely scared. The end of free time, the end of ever having a good night's sleep again, the end of saveable/disposable income... well, you get the idea.

 

But as I raise her, and play with her, and learn from her, I wouldn't change a thing. In so many ways, knowing her, teaching her, and showing her all the cool things there are in the world has helped to keep me whole. For a long time, she was the only person who was happy to see me, and the only thing that made home feel like home. I would never recommend someone to have a child just to be loved (some days they'll make you tear your hair out.) But I feel like being her father is probably my strongest link to being a decent person

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I really like that passage.

 

I don't know that I do want children, and I know I am also biased on this topic. Which it makes it all the more interesting to hope to read different responses here.

 

The part of me that does want child(ren) wants that primarily in order for me to be a mother. It's almost completely emotional. It's pure instinct, in a lot of ways, a draw that makes me want to give totally to a little child. That is about me. Whenever I think about the possibility of bringing children into the world or taking on becoming a mother, I think it's like a riddle that can never be solved (in terms of trying to figure out the ethos of it). No matter how I think about it, consider it, look at it, imagine it and possible motivations and ways of going about it, it seems to remain in my mind always to be both one of the most selfish things a person could do and one of the most unselfish at the same time. If I do choose to take that on, my hope would be to not allow the selfish side to overrun the selfless end of the deal. To see that person and help guide them, and not allow my 'instinct' relationship to eclipse all that. I waited to develop more logic - honestly! - coming from a line where you just didn't think about these things, you just do.

 

It is clearly not an easy job at all though it's easy to see the huge potential there for so much reward.

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hey, radical.

 

you know...i'd imagined mainly female responses. glad to hear the male perspective though.

 

so for you, was this something you'd ever considered in terms of your own desire? i mean...if it hadn't happened...would you have spent much time thinking about it? just curious.

 

really like this:

 

But I feel like being her father is probably my strongest link to being a decent person

 

awesome words. glad you have this in your life.

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I think it's like a riddle that can never be solved (in terms of trying to figure out the ethos of it). No matter how I think about it, consider it, look at it, imagine it and possible motivations and ways of going about it, it seems to remain in my mind always to be both one of the most selfish things a person could do and one of the most unselfish at the same time. If I do choose to take that on, my hope would be to not allow the selfish side to overrun the selfless end of the deal. To see that person and help guide them, and not allow my 'instinct' relationship to eclipse all that. I waited to develop more logic - honestly! - coming from a line where you just didn't think about these things, you just do.

 

hey itsallgrand,

 

you've actually kind of mirrored my sentiments here. i find the whole selfish/unselfish dichotomy to be so interesting...and really at the core of my own curiosity. really admire and appreciate your openness in that regard. i think it's easy to ignore the side that speaks to one's own selfish nature. much easier to bury one's head in the sand and ''just do''.

 

glad you share some of the same curiosity.

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so for you, was this something you'd ever considered in terms of your own desire? i mean...if it hadn't happened...would you have spent much time thinking about it? just curious.

Interesting question. I guess I always thought of it as something that would "probably" happen someday, but felt a surge of relief on those "scary" months when a certain something happened later than normal. In short, I hate to say that I dreaded it, but the thought of me being responsible for showing someone how to live, scared the bejeezus out of me. I never saw the "ups," only the "downs" to it. They looked depressing.

 

I'm glad it was nothing like I expected

It is clearly not an easy job at all though it's easy to see the huge potential there for so much reward.

I can see that, and I see your point about selfishness and selflessness. I think adoption is the most responsible way to go about it (I'm not judging anyone who doesn't--after all, we didn't--I'm just saying, adoption is uber-selfless.) I never really saw the reward until after my daughter was born. Prior to, I was a nervous wreck.

 

Sidenote: as I was typing this, she just tugged on my sleeve and said "Daddy, want vegetables for dinner." So I said okay. Then she smiled and said "With curry?" Few things in my life approach that kind of awesome

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I have wanted to be a mom since I was a kid myself, it's hard to explain though. It's just always been this constant feeling I was meant to be a mom which has never wavered, even when surrounded with baby vomit, poo, and no sleep from baby sitting my niece and nephew. I feel the most like 'me' when I have a baby in my arms. But WHY I want to... hm....

 

The passage in the OP sums why I want to pretty much. I think it's an amazing thing to bring a life into this world, to watch it grow from the very moment it takes it's first breath until it becomes a thinking adult. I want a part of me in this world (a basic human drive) but I want a BETTER part of me and my fiance. I want to teach my kids what I know but still leave room for them to make their own decisions, to come to their own opinions. I want to teach them that even if they and I have differing on opinons (politics, religion, life in whole) that we can still co exist and that neither of us are wrong. I want to give them the best of me and watch them carve their own path in this world.

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Interesting question. I guess I always thought of it as something that would "probably" happen someday, but felt a surge of relief on those "scary" months when a certain something happened later than normal. In short, I hate to say that I dreaded it, but the thought of me being responsible for showing someone how to live, scared the bejeezus out of me. I never saw the "ups," only the "downs" to it. They looked depressing.

 

I'm glad it was nothing like I expected

 

Sidenote: as I was typing this, she just tugged on my sleeve and said "Daddy, want vegetables for dinner." So I said okay. Then she smiled and said "With curry?" Few things in my life approach that kind of awesome

 

damn...that sidenote of yours made me feel SO warm, radical. wow.

 

and...as for the rest...i gather before this little joy came into your life, most of thinking you did on the subject was in terms of not wanting, as opposed to wanting.

 

I have wanted to be a mom since I was a kid myself, it's hard to explain though. It's just always been this constant feeling I was meant to be a mom which has never wavered, even when surrounded with baby vomit, poo, and no sleep from baby sitting my niece and nephew. I feel the most like 'me' when I have a baby in my arms. But WHY I want to... hm....

 

The passage in the OP sums why I want to pretty much. I think it's an amazing thing to bring a life into this world, to watch it grow from the very moment it takes it's first breath until it becomes a thinking adult. I want a part of me in this world (a basic human drive) but I want a BETTER part of me and my fiance. I want to teach my kids what I know but still leave room for them to make their own decisions, to come to their own opinions. I want to teach them that even if they and I have differing on opinons (politics, religion, life in whole) that we can still co exist and that neither of us are wrong. I want to give them the best of me and watch them carve their own path in this world.

 

yah...'why' is a tough question to answer...especially when it's what you've always known.

 

this response reminds me alot of my first serious girlfriend, OG. she had this unwavering desire to be a mother. and it's something she could never explain to me on terms other than, ''i just want it.'' and to be honest...that always bothered me. i imagine if we'd been able to come to some sort of understanding, our relationship would've progressed quite differently. her 'blind' desire was always a sour point for me. i had alot of difficulty accepting it. i think it comes back to the selfish/unselfish argument. it always felt selfish to me, that desire of hers. and it conflicted horribly with my own beliefs on the subject. of course...looking back...all of these things i thought were based on assumptions. very much guilty of drawing my own conclusions...of attacking a belief that was not my own (and an assumed one at that!!!). ha...not mine finest hour to be sure.

 

but i'm glad Khalil's words have some resonance with you. that's encouraging. thanks for sharing.

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It's hard for most men, it was for my ex. He's the same age as me and for him kids were always in the far, far, far future (like early 30's) and I knew I didn't wnat to wait that long. It wasn't the only reason we ended but it was one of the major reasons. My fiance has always wanted to be a dad though so we compliment each other in that regard. It's hard - and not meaning this as a jab, but just as one of those facts - unless you have that desire, it's hard to understand, like with anything in life. I can see were hearing 'you just know' is hard to accept or take in but it's the best way to put it.

 

It's the same with anything in life. Some people have a desire to date around before marriage - I never wanted to. I never wanted to have x notches on my best post before settling down. A lot of people can't understand how a 23 year old doesn't want to go out and party but would rather be coming home to a husband and changing diapers - just like I can't understand how anyone wants to get so drunk they can't remember the night before.

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I have not read these words before, but I must admit they affected me in an almost physical way. In fact, I called my husband over and read them out to him. We were both almost in tears.

 

As the parents of adult children, the words ring so true. Their own paths are being taken and we are just bystanders, hoping that life deals out to them kindly and that, somehow we have prepared them for it

 

When we first decided to have children I must admit it felt like jumping into the deep end of the pool without knowing how to swim. I think if you think too much about the responsibilities, financial consequences, and loss of personal freedom, there might not be a problem with over-population!

 

I had dreams of being a serious artist; where are those dreams now? It's not that I wasn't able to achieve them; they no longer seemed as important.

 

I do have a sense of completeness being a parent; but it's time now to reclaim my life as well as take a step back and not interfere in the dreams of my children.

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I want to give them the best of me and watch them carve their own path in this world.

 

I'm with just about everything OG said, but especially this, in short.

 

I feel that parenting is the best of hard practicalities and mystical intangibles combined. The love I feel in my maternal aspect is the purest form of love that I know -- even not having had biological children.

 

But when I say "pure", I don't mean that it's completely unselfish. I also agree that there is a very interesting selfish/unselfish paradox involved with parenting. But then again, I feel that any "unselfish", altruistic act comes with the "selfish" motivation to feel rewarded by having done it. I do not believe that any act is completely selfless. Even if that reward is completely nonmaterial and internal. Wishing to be part of another's thriving -- be it your child, or someone else's child (even if they are decades older than you!) -- is as much for your enrichment in the process as theirs.

 

What makes it pure is that the intent is non self-focused -- it is not about what this person gives me back, it's what they become for themselves. And the reward that you feel in having been part of the growth process is a byproduct.

 

It's mystical because you become as incidental as instrumental.

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this response reminds me alot of my first serious girlfriend, OG. she had this unwavering desire to be a mother. and it's something she could never explain to me on terms other than, ''i just want it.'' and to be honest...that always bothered me. i imagine if we'd been able to come to some sort of understanding, our relationship would've progressed quite differently. her 'blind' desire was always a sour point for me. i had alot of difficulty accepting it. i think it comes back to the selfish/unselfish argument. it always felt selfish to me, that desire of hers. and it conflicted horribly with my own beliefs on the subject.

 

I just wanted to add though, sleepy, that the feeling is so visceral for some, that it can be one of those things that defies words, and is inexpressible. It's like intuition -- if you feel something in your gut as "right" -- it is something neither necessary nor well-disposed to being articulated.

 

A biological need -- albeit a complex one -- is of this nature, imo. So I can see saying, "I just want it" as easily as all the other words I've tried to use. And I can also imagine saying I feel "complete" as a woman and person having been a parent as I could agree with Gibran. It's not either you've got a reason you can describe that's got all the right, definable logic and motivation, or you're irrationally driven by unthinking selfish desire.

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I don't know if I agree with "it's hard for men to understand". Especially since I have felt a lot in the same boat as 90 hour sleep here in his previous relationship, except I was the woman in the relationship feeling this surge of emotion about the man in my life explaining he "just wanted" children.

 

Y'know what I mean?

 

I think the conflict for me has always been that it's not something I feel it as simple as "well it is my god given right to bring kids into the world" and it has gotten me angry when people take that approach. It IS in a way our "god given" or naturally given right to bear children, but I simply have issue with that mentality since it makes it all too easy to wrap things up in a neat little bundle and not take responsibility. It became a very loaded topic for me, and somewhere down the road i decided i would not be someone who makes what I feel is that same mistake.

 

Like I mentioned earlier, I have that instinct to mother and nurture and all of that which others have described, and I don't think it is simple at all. Lots of good points were made on that.

 

But it's like, just because other people do it and here we are with all these children not being provided for properly as is, why not go ahead and add to it? Screw it, it is someone else's problem, and I'll just focus on my own? I don't know. That bothers me deeply. It bothers me deeply that people know there is a real issue for all humanity but they want to see their own face in that kids face. They want these things, and these are natural things, but who will take up the slack? Who will really be paying the price for that?

 

But yet the ultimate argument remains "I just want it. It is my right."

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hey elcie!

 

well...your journal posts have certainly added to my experience here, elcie...so i'm happy to have returned the favour with a favourable reference. there really is something striking about his words. and...if you feel strongly about them...i would highly recommend ''the prophet''.

 

i definitely appreciate what you're saying about 'jumping in'. it's interesting to hear this from a female perspective (for me at least, because the women that have passed through my life have not shared this particular mentality). for me...i've never entertained those things as viable reasons not to enter the parenting world...which kind of defies my character. have to admit...i'm a bit of a contradiction on these terms.

 

i wonder...does your husband have a different take on these events? do you feel the male perspective is drastically different than the female?

 

and...considering your final words here...without getting to personal, what's your impression of parents who are unable or unwilling to let their grown children run free in the world (without excessive interference)?

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I think adoption is a great thing - I'm assuming you were talking about adopting vs. Biological, I could be wring, lol - and if we can't have kids if our own through other methods we will adopt. I suppose it is selfish for us to want our own kids when there are kids out there already who need a home but anyone who wants kids is being selfish on some level. It's a biological drive to want to out your own DNA out there - natural selection and all - and for a good many people they would rather try to have their own then adopt.

 

It's not a perfect world, by far. I don't think it's my right to have kids, per say, but it's more of a biological need to want my own DNA out there, or, to try to.

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I just wanted to add though, sleepy, that the feeling is so visceral for some, that it can be one of those things that defies words, and is inexpressible. It's like intuition -- if you feel something in your gut as "right" -- it is something neither necessary nor well-disposed to being articulated.

 

A biological need -- albeit a complex one -- is of this nature, imo. So I can see saying, "I just want it" as easily as all the other words I've tried to use. And I can also imagine saying I feel "complete" as a woman and person having been a parent as I could agree with Gibran. It's not either you've got a reason you can describe that's got all the right, definable logic and motivation, or you're irrationally driven by unthinking selfish desire.

 

oh vampy...i knew you'd weigh in on this one. you were a subtle part of my motivation for asking.

 

i really do appreciate the visceral quality that you've described. and actually...i've been anticipating some discussion to that effect. how does one put words to that which is inexpressible. so...on those terms...i understand fully the nature of any statement which references ''i just want''.

 

so...perhaps i've opened a philosophical can of worms which at very best...has no answer. that's fine. strangely enough...this is my rather indirect way of seeking advice on this forum. i've never done that. but this is something which i feel the need to address. because, the reality as i see it is this: an overwhelming majority of women in this culture which i am a part of, express this desire...this need. seems it would be in my best interest to make an attempt to understand (to serve my own selfish motives haha).

 

anyway. i believe i understand what you're saying here. seems from your perspective this isn't a simple dichotomy between selfish/unselfish? well...i'd be surprised if it were. those just happen to be two of the primary players in terms of debate.

 

It's like intuition -- if you feel something in your gut as "right" -- it is something neither necessary nor well-disposed to being articulated.

 

ooooh...that's sticky...very sticky! intuition is tough...and i believe you and i may have engaged in this particular conversation at some point already. where does one draw the line between 'intuition' and a long line of nurtured indoctrination? this particular topic is loaded with that. i realize we often draw the line where we see fit...as it best suits our own ambitions. it's a bit of a selective process in many ways. but then...how do we find distinction between free will, and that nurtured urgency of need/desire? this transcends so far beyond the notion of having children...but i wonder if procreation is given a bit of a get-out-of-jail-free card because it's one of the pillars of humanity at this juncture (and arguably the entire history of mankind)? this is the real ''why'' of it all. is bearing children implicity different because we've allowed it to be so? when so many other personal choices are scrutinized...why is this one often given the free pass? what makes it so different? do you see what i'm saying?

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i'm a bit flabbergasted here, itsallgrand. feels like you've hijacked a few of my thoughts...and taken it upon yourself to voice them.

 

i'd just like to add to your list of arguments...

 

"it's a biological need...'' and ''it's why we're here...'' that's my personal favourite. i'd hazard a guess that if we were discussing anything other than procreation...there'd be considerable upheaval at the presumptuous nature of that statement.

 

it's interesting. there's no sense being overly critical...but at the same time...i can't help but be curious...which implies the use of a critical mind. i'm a bit curious what other cultures would contribute to this discussion.

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It's not a perfect world, by far. I don't think it's my right to have kids, per say, but it's more of a biological need to want my own DNA out there, or, to try to.

 

aaaah...

 

"or, to try to."

 

i was going to ask...''why do you suppose you have that need or desire to get your DNA out there?" but...then you went and added, ''or, try to...'' which totally took the wind out of my sails. i mean...i may bit a bit of a dimwit...but i'm not dimwitted enough miss the implications of that one.

 

so...i guess i have a new question. do you suppose it's possible that this biological need that's been referenced is based more on a physical impulse to engage in sexual relations (lol...always makes me laugh when people refer to it as that)? only entertaining this as a possibility. and that perhaps, having children is just a wonderful side-effect of that impulse achieving fruition (depending on which side of the fence you're sitting on)? maybe this belief has been perpetuated over the countless millennia. but then...that seems unlikely. i wonder what our ancestors would have to say about this. i have a feeling few of them would've had the propensity to even consider such things. so...that leads me to loosely conclude that there is indeed a strong element of 'nature' to be considered. but...what i'm more interested in...is the element of nurture. nature has reason...while nurture is often rife with complexity.

 

which seems to be where we find ourselves.....

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I Don't think I Take the wind out of most peoples' sails, lol. I"ll answer that question anyway (about why I feel the need or desire to get my own DNA out there): I think it's one of the most basic needs a human can feel, much like anger, lust, love, happiness - yes, we rose above the aps and walk on two feet and have rational thinking but for me, at the heart of the matter, we are still mammals who resort to our basic needs whether we know it or not. We eat, we sleep, and we protect ourselves. Procreation is the same. Not everyone feels it - and it doesn't make them wrong- but there are animals who chose not to go with the whole circle of line concept. They are fine with this as our child free couples.

 

Hm, good question. I don't know if I can answer it but I'll explain how I feel (perhaps in a way that will answer it). For me, sex is great. Sex is A.W.E.S.O.M.E, lets not lie. In that mindset yes, the possibilty you mentioned is what happens - because I love sex and I engage in sex, the side effect of it (when wanted) is an amazing life (ie, baby). So for couples who want kids and are trying it's that - sex equals baby. BUT, there is another part of it - which makes is so complex - that sex in general is taken out. Take my love for sex away, I still have that basic desire to have children to put my own DNA (not thoughts or opinons but my blood, my flesh) out there, to continue who I am. I think it's a two fold thing really, you can't have one without the other but in a way, you can.

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Damn, no edit button, hahaha. I said 'try to' because there are couples who want kids of their own but can't have them (fear of mine, big fear) so then if they want to be parents they have to adopt (if they don't do surrgoacy or IVF). Which even then they are putting a part of themselves into the world. Not flesh and blood or their DNA but their beliefs and their view on the world (because the way you raise kids is a view itself you pass on to your kids, be it good or bad) so then one has to ask, with parents who adopt, do they feel a overall need not to pass their DNA on but their BELIEFS, even if the kids don't take to them?

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Damn, no edit button, hahaha. I said 'try to' because there are couples who want kids of their own but can't have them (fear of mine, big fear) so then if they want to be parents they have to adopt (if they don't do surrgoacy or IVF). Which even then they are putting a part of themselves into the world. Not flesh and blood or their DNA but their beliefs and their view on the world (because the way you raise kids is a view itself you pass on to your kids, be it good or bad) so then one has to ask, with parents who adopt, do they feel a overall need not to pass their DNA on but their BELIEFS, even if the kids don't take to them?

 

okay...fair enough. i equated ''or, try to'' as ''having sex''. so it seems maybe i really was dimwitted enough to miss what you were implying. hahaha!! god i love the internet sometimes!

 

and your question...this is good, OG. very pleased that you've asked this. and i'm curious to hear what others have to say on this. because, you've effectively taken an element (not all of it) of the bilogical need off the table. so perhaps we're getting closer to the heart of this. very interesting.

 

this may be too personal...so i respect your right to privacy on this one...but have you ever examined your fear of being unable to conceive?

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I've just always known I want to have children. I love kids. I honestly can't wait to be a mom. It might sound lame, but I am really good at taking care of people, loving them and I have a lot of love to give. I can't wait to be able to share that with my kids some day. They are such a blessing. Probably since I grew up very young having neices and nephews; I've been around kids pretty much my entire life and I couldn't imagine life without them. Even if for some reason I could not have my own kids, I would want to adopt. Having those special people in your life, in my opinion, is what makes it worth living.

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I've just always known I want to have children. I love kids. I honestly can't wait to be a mom. It might sound lame, but I am really good at taking care of people, loving them and I have a lot of love to give. I can't wait to be able to share that with my kids some day. They are such a blessing. Probably since I grew up very young having neices and nephews; I've been around kids pretty much my entire life and I couldn't imagine life without them. Even if for some reason I could not have my own kids, I would want to adopt. Having those special people in your life, in my opinion, is what makes it worth living.

 

hey sanguine,

 

i don't think any of this sounds lame. your focus is very much on giving...and to me, that's where the focus should always be. that, as i see it, is the essence of Khalil Gibran's passage. but then...words are always open to interpretation.

 

how do you think your view would be different had you not grown up around children?

 

just some thoughts. thanks for sharing your perspective.

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