*Please Read* For those thinking of committing suicide.

My Director's son just recently committed suicide. Words cannot express how much my heart hurts learning of this. Mind you I've never met his son but I still feel for his father and his family. Please know that taking your own life no matter how much you're hurting affects everyone even those you may not directly know. Life is precious.

Please seek help and know that it does get better.

Yes.

Suicide is definitely an act of selfishness.

By commiting suicide, you are making other people suffer, while not benefiting yourself at all.

coming suicide is an act of cowardice.

Yes.

 

Suicide is definitely an act of selfishness.

 

By commiting suicide, you are making other people suffer, while not benefiting yourself at all.

 

coming suicide is an act of cowardice.

What would you rather have happen? Would you rather the person quietly suffer for the rest of their life - all so you are spared an uncomfortable subject? This also seems selfish.

But at least only one person is suffering, verses many. i assume the argument is that since more people would suffer if i take the cowards route, i should continue to suffer (i.e. at least it's just me suffering).

On the other hand people do have enough compassion to put to sleep a suffering pet. Why does a human get less sympathy?

What would you rather he did? Think about that. Really think about it.

I'm sorry for the familys loss, however please do not call suicide an act of selfishness or cowardice.

It is completely true that those who are affiliated with the person who committed suicide do suffer a great loss. So much that it can never be replaced.

But I ask that you think of the person who took their life. Some people go day by day, for years on end thinking of suicidal thoughts, spending their days alone, their minds plagued every second by their depression. It is not an easy thing to deal with, and getting help requires a good amount of motivation or determination.

In no way am I saying that people should take their own lives, but in the case that they do I ask that you don't insult them. Thank you

It is selfish because of all the hell those you leave behind go through, not to mention the BILLS.

If you have $20,000 to cover hazmat, your funeral, and therapists I'd feel 1% better about your senseless decision.

It is selfish because of all the hell those you leave behind go through, not to mention the BILLS.

If you have $20,000 to cover hazmat, your funeral, and therapists I'd feel 1% better about your senseless decision.

I'm so sorry you see it that way.

If no one cares for you in life at all even your own family, and you have totally given and given to all the pieces of you are gone, the pain and the darkness wins, the bullies win, I cannot go on I have had enough if I am a coward so be it but I will not be missed so therefore I am hurting no one, no one has ever been here for me in life so I am quite sure no one cares if I am gone.....

If no one cares for you in life at all even your own family, and you have totally given and given to all the pieces of you are gone, the pain and the darkness wins, the bullies win, I cannot go on I have had enough if I am a coward so be it but I will not be missed so therefore I am hurting no one, no one has ever been here for me in life so I am quite sure no one cares if I am gone.....

That's a lie. By posting you already have one person who cares.

I don't even know you but I'll care if you disappear.

From what I've read, a lot of people who commit suicide do it precisely because they think they are a strain on people and that they are doing everybody a favour by dying. It's nothing to do with being selfish. It's easy for us to sit here and judge, because we've never gone through it.

Helping people understand that there are other ways out, that people do care, is surely the right way to handle depression. I mean I've never met these kids who killed themselves recently because of homophobic bullying, but I still cared and was upset when I read bout it, and would have done anything in my power to have helped them had I been able to. I certainly don't think they were selfish.

From what I've read, a lot of people who commit suicide do it precisely because they think they are a strain on people and that they are doing everybody a favour by dying. It's nothing to do with being selfish. It's easy for us to sit here and judge, because we've never gone through it.

 

Helping people understand that there are other ways out, that people do care, is surely the right way to handle depression. I mean I've never met these kids who killed themselves recently because of homophobic bullying, but I still cared and was upset when I read bout it, and would have done anything in my power to have helped them had I been able to. I certainly don't think they were selfish.

I really like all that you've said and the compassion of this post, especially the part I've bolded. I'm very sympathetic to this point of view.

But I'd like to explain why I feel that it's still fair to call suicide -- the ACT of suicide -- selfish.

Knowing that when I do, it's not to condemn anyone. When people are suicidal, they are mentally clouded and having a break with reality and it's fair to say that if they could control it they would, because no one elects to feel that way (and I do believe that this is true for everyone who tries to kill themselves, except in cases for non-depressed terminally ill patients who have a lot of pain and loss of function and their deaths are immanent anyway). So they are having a break with reality, in that they see no alternatives and no other ways of thinking about outcomes. They also believe that things are either going to continue to get worse, or never get better, or stay the same, which are all nothing more than projections into the future based on a current situation or patterns of belief -- all of which are changeable.

So it's a bit of a dicey matter to apply certain loaded words that sound harsh and character-judging in this situation, the way we would elsewhere. A person who is "selfish" by taking their lives is not selfish in the way someone who takes from others and never gives back is, for instance.

If we pare down the word selfish to its essentials, it would be, "Putting one's own needs or concerns ahead of another's." This I think is a broad definition.

And in the case of suicide, yes, it's true, a lot of people do feel they're a burden to others and it'd be doing others a favor to be gone. (And btw, I think a good deal of suicidal people don't feel that way as much as they simply are filled with self-loathing, emptiness and a sense that their life is intolerable, so it depends on the person.)

But even if that's a major thought in someone's head, that's not anyone's PRIMARY motivation to kill themselves. It's always secondary to something else which is primary -- something that makes them afraid to keep on living. Something or things that make their life feel too dreadful and terrible to face (like in the case of the gay kids who were filled with tremendous shame) -- as I said, with thoughts about the future being worse or getting no better. It's pure fear that drives people to suicide, at core. So the primary motivation is to simply get out of the having to face whatever it is, assuming it isn't fixable.

That is not primarily a need to spare others.

That is primarily a need to spare oneself.

And so in tallying up the damage their death will cause, they calculate that other people will absorb the loss somehow or other -- so that they can proceed with their priority objective, and that is to flee their pain.

So essentially, the person is putting their own "needs" and "concerns" above other people's. They may love and worry about the people they leave behind, but they are more fearful about what lies in store for them to stay alive and are acting on that, than what will happen to other people if they die.

And that makes it by definition selfish.

But it's important to distinguish between a selfish person and a selfish act -- people get tripped up here when the word "selfish" -- or even "cowardly", which is even more condemning -- is used. I've said it before and I'll say it again: a generous person can do a selfish thing at some point in time, just as a kind person can do an unkind thing at some point in time. Same for cowardice -- a person who is generally a brave person might do something uncourageous at another time.

And so we can say a person who acts first for themselves in their fear of what will happen to them (i.e., does a selfish thing) or runs away from a conflict and quits (i.e., does a cowardly thing) is not judged as an entire person for this -- but we are calling a spade a spade, using the words that do apply to this act (not this person) which is suicide. And whether it is clouded or not as a decision, the impact for the living -- who factor in secondarily -- is the same, thus the nature of the act, the same.

Well, in that case, if you want to specifically define it as something, why stop and just choose 'selfish', or 'cowardly'. By definition, suicide can be described as a number of things. It takes a lot of guts to go ahead with the decision to kill yourself, hence taking 'Courage'. It sometimes goes on after a lot and lot of thought, hence 'Thoughtful'. Sometimes, despite the reality, the person may see it as sparing another person, say an elder, from embarrassment so it is 'Kindly'. Also, it could be thought that the fact that those who miss the person are themselves being 'Selfish', for they choose not to accept the will of the other.

Why label suicide with the negative labels, such as 'Selfish', and 'Cowardly'. It is just too easy to take the well-worn path. Unless you've actually been in their position, and gone through with it, I don't think you have the right to judge it for it being anything, cause we will never truly understand the true motivation behind it, and all the factors behind it. The only people can begin to understand are those who are still living, and haven't gone through with it. All you are doing is disrespecting some people I've known and truly respect, and without a doubt I have no reason to believe that there were some higher concepts and issues in play that I could not see or understand. So to oppose you, and although I disagree with their actions, I'll be a devil's advocate, and say they were Self-less, because they did not want their parent to experience the failure that they did not want to share, and that they were Courageous, because they went ahead and did something with a concept that so many of us are fearful of. I'm not at all trying to glorify the act, just don't like the disrespect, when an infinity of other words could be logically applied to describe the act.

And please, please, if anyone is reading this, please don't commit suicide. It just really hurts, so much.

Unless you've actually been in their position, and gone through with it, I don't think you have the right to judge it for it being anything, cause we will never truly understand the true motivation behind it, and all the factors behind it. The only people can begin to understand are those who are still living, and haven't gone through with it.

See, what you don't know (and you can't, not knowing me) is that I have been in their position, more than once, and am among their ranks.

So I believe I have the "right" to speak to this. I'm not an outsider.

If I went through with it, I would consider I've done something selfish and cowardly. I hate those words, and have fought with them myself (partly, to remove their stigma for myself). I have also been on the "stop judging!" side of the argument on this board in my time, to de-stigmatize others as well.

But they are just words. They bite. They sting. They glare with an ugly hue. But they are nothing more than sounds in the English language.

The impact it would have of causing a number of people in my life the kind of catastrophic destruction I know it would come to is something I keep in mind every day and the word "selfish" arises in my own mind. And it's held me back. Again and again and again and again. When I think of going through the steps of snuffing myself out, what arises in my mind is "you'd be a coward, are you okay with that? someone who quits." And it holds me back again and again and again. Sometimes I yell it in my own "bloodied" "ear", like a coach, ringside...and it clears the hypnotic pulse of ethers, the anesthetic drip of doom relaxing my grip.

I'm sorry you feel I've disrespected your loved ones, Dtar. But I cannot agree that there are any 'good' words to describe suicide. I'm glad you're taking the Devil's Advocate, because skepticism is good, and that means you and I essentially DO agree. There's nothing GOOD about suicide. No word. No thought behind no word.

I would say in my worst moments, I've thought "You're too much of a coward to do it."

And then I asked myself what "courageous" means (if we agree that's the opposite of a "coward"?), because such thoughts of it being noble and decisive and gutsy and strong-willed were/are dangerous to me -- I want to be all those things. Noble and gutsy and strong-willed and decisive? Why wouldn't I want to be all those things? I want to be those things and for my life to be determined by those things. Those are attributes of the capable person. And I want to be capable. In anything I do.

But none of those qualities translate into suicide, even when I am at my lowest, if I sit there and contemplate it. Because if I -- feeling I've lost the battle -- decide to do the "courageous" thing and end it, even if it took decisiveness and a strong will, it's for all the wrong reasons. And those words are only good when they are used for good. You can be decisive and gutsy and "thoughtful" killing someone else, murdering them, yes? This is self-murder. So that contaminates those lofty words. And I've surrendered the battle. There's no glossing that one up. Facing the battle of life and showing up for battle after battle, scar after scar, that is the far more courageous act. I feel that is the correct answer, I know that in my bones; it's not a cop-out for the "coward" who can't bring themselves to end it. So it's all relative, I guess, what word you use for what -- but it's good to be clear about what those words mean, how you honestly (not argumentatively) define them, if they are so charged for you. It'd take massive BALLS to take my life. But is it nobly courageous? Is it an act of heroism and bravery? Comparing it to other things in the world I use those words for?

Not to me. When I meditate on it for myself.

I'm sorry for the situations in your life that have brought you this pain, and I didn't mean to offend or hurt you or anyone else.

But you do need to know that many of us have hung by or hang by the thread of these concepts (not even the blatant words -- the concepts and implications, which then can only be conveyed by our limited language) and are deterred. Read this forum on a regular basis, and you'll see how many people really do testify they can't or won't do it, or didn't do it, because of these concepts.

I guess they help some people, not others. And as I said...I'm not here to condemn. I'm here to explain why it's reasonable to use these words no matter who you are and what side of the situation you're on. And this is a matter quite personal to me, Dtar. I'm not spewing some abstract dogma. I've been on every side of it.

The only word I think has arisen to me with positive connotations is "kind." But I think of it as being "kind" to myself. The idea of release from pain feels kind.

But it's still a brutal act of violence against the Temple -- the human creation. Even in my darkest hours, I can see that I'd be destroying a precious and primal and ancient and genius work. And that's not "kind" to it. It'd be like shelling a holy citadel. And even if it was kind to myself, it wouldn't be kind to any other person who knows me. Ever. Ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever.

So we are back to "selfish" with that particular word.

I just wish people wouldn't assume what life situations posters are in when they critique these words. "Unless you've actually been there you are not allowed to use these words"...maybe and maybe not. I agree it's too easy for people who are having a grand life and love it and haven't grappled with this demon, to judge ignorantly, often arrogantly. But that's not the only kind of poster posting here on this topic.

And I will grant you, the only thing I still haven't experienced for myself is actually going through with it successfully. I don't know what those moments are like, no.

If I did though, I'd hope that those left behind would be able to get angry at me and think of it as selfish (not exclusively, but as part of the package), because they have a right to feel I've hurt them badly and ill-considered what I've just stuck them with. Survivors often don't feel they have a right to feel any of these things. To me, it's just another facet of their having loved me that they're angry I didn't stay.

I don't wish to demean anyone, but I've said that enough times here. These are my own feelings. So let's not speak for eachother. We each have our own truth.

I would like to add one more thing.

INTENT is the most important thing behind every act in this life.

So if someone does something with an INTENT to be kind, or considerate, or selfless, etc. etc. (the "higher concepts" and ideals you're referring to), I believe their heart is in the right place. (And I maintain that simultaneously, remedying the pain they are experiencing is still a prime motivator. This is not either/or.)

But what I was saying in my first post is that this doesn't mean it turns out being anything of the kind. This can apply to many mistakes in life, not just suicide -- as they say, hell is paved with good intentions.

If someone is killing themselves with the intent to be kind, or with the intent to be noble, or the intent to spare others, or the intent to "do what's right", I'd say that makes them a well-meaning person with a pure heart.

But I would also say at the very same time that they are as delusional as they are good-hearted. And my point was, that the result is not kind or right or selflessly generous in the outcome.

The ACT, and what it becomes, stands apart from the intent.

No, no. THIS will be the last thing.

I have posted in this forum for some time. On and off, since I've been on this board. Which is 3.5 years.

And never once have I actually used the words "coward" or "selfish" when talking to anyone suicidal (and I'll add, in my "real life"), because I believe speaking in those terms doesn't help people -- it feels like berating. In the context of immediate situations where people need help (I'm not counting my own internal processes, with myself), those words have no value. I don't know if the OP (who is not suicidal, but wants to admonish those who are) wanted the thread to go in this direction. But if we are talking about reasons to stay alive and not to do it in a discourse like this...these do come up.

And I do believe, as I said, for those left behind, after the fact..........these words have some relevance because of what is experienced. For some, anyway. And that should matter, too.

Sorry, I didn't mean to challenge any meanings of value that actually come to the core of people and help them stop doing anything they would regret.

Just heard news about someone yesterday who did it as a 17 yr old 7 years ago, and he was my captain in a sport, and probably the best leader I've ever been under. Selfish and cowardice are probably the last two words I could use to describe him, and I think I was thinking about how he may have been irrevocably incorrect in his thinking, cause I knew his dad as well from the team, and I don't like to make guesses, but I think it would have been hard for him to talk about anything, cause he was so strong.

So I guess I was going pseudo new age on the terms, thinking about what exactly may go through their mind.

I've also attempted suicide, but that was when I was 19, and I didn't know any better, thus I crashed a car into a tree [which was dumb, didn't do anything except to the car] after half an hour driving while experiencing my first delusions [schizophrenia], and thought I had to do it to protect my family from some delusion I had. Of course, the depression I experienced after being taken out of my life into a psychiatric unit for 4 weeks, and then being socially alone for 6 months really taught me what depression could be like.

But yeh, last thing I want to be is narrow-minded, in something I don't think I would have the capacity to fully understand. I apologise, cause I read your posts through once to get a jist and no more, but I'm still down about the news I heard yesterday. But I think you've written a compelling series of arguments. After yesterday, I just think that on the other side of the coin, for those who aren't alive, it hurts for them to be considered as simply selfish and cowardly, when they were so much more to me [being very egocentric here]. But no offence taken, and I'm sorry if I offended. I caught wind of your explanation a little, and I may give it better justice with a deeper read later, when I can stomach thinking about this stuff more. I wasn't even that close to my captain, but he meant a lot to my life when I was young.

Having thought about it more after going for a walk and reminiscing, I think I was just being a bit too defensive and wrapped in grief, and avoiding the blinding truth.

You are right, suicide is by large, a very selfish and cowardly act.

I guess the act doesn't have to define the person's life, although it was their last act.

I'm really very sorry for challenging the notion. I shouldn't be trying to avoid the overbearing truth about the act. It is a very selfish and cowardly way to handle something. Please accept my apologies. I'm bouncin around at the moment.

(Edit: I wrote this before I saw your post, above.)

I'm very sorry for your loss. And only someone grieving could have written the kind of post you did.

There is no need to sit here and cogitate on words with negative connotations now, when it's entirely natural and appropriate to think of all the good things this person had to offer the world. Those things will always be those things. And it's so sad those things are lost to the world. This is a terrible loss. Suicide wouldn't be the tragedy it is if the people who were lost weren't the kinds of people the world should have in it.

There is no black and white here. There is a time and place to consider various aspects of this. You don't need to think about anything you don't want to.

last thing I want to be is narrow-minded, in something I don't think I would have the capacity to fully understand.

Same here. I won't fully understand anything until I fully experience it myself. But I've enough experience to know some things involved as they have related to me, feeling as I do...as well as putting myself in other people's shoes.

If this were the Grief forum, I'd probably speak differently...as I said, different situations and points in time call for different takes of the same subject...all of them valid. I understand very well your feeling that if you were the deceased, you wouldn't want to be thought of as "simply selfish and cowardly." But that's not what I said here at all. I made a point of not judging an entire person by a single act in time. But this is not going to be meaningful to you right now, since you're hurting about your friend.

Speaking for myself, if I ever were to do this...I would probably understand the "how could you do this to me?" response very well, and would not feel disrespected, because I'd know these people know that's not all there is...was...to me. We are many things. Being human is consistently inconsistent.

This being the suicide forum, though...and talking about discouraging suicide...I can say in this forum that ultimately, I believe that every person should be living for THEMSELVES, because they value their life no matter what and who else is or isn't in the picture. But being suicidal, one loses that compass of self-value or self-preservation in the throes of despair. And so the next best thing is to live because you're mindful of the extent of the damage you'll do if you don't.

It's not an ideal solution...it's a bit of a bandaid, until you can find a totally independent reason...but it's a last-ditch reason of incalculable significance. And I'm all for last-ditch reasons when everything else has failed in the system. And for me...it's been powerful enough to keep me here sometimes when there's nothing left that I can find.

Because if you can find even ONE reason or ONE person to live for...or can't stand the idea of throwing in the towel, as much as death beckons.......you still have life.

And as long as there's life......there's hope.

Again, I'm sorry you've been dealt this loss. I'm sure he was a great guy. Notwithstanding all of this other stuff.

(after reading your last post) --

My heart goes out to you. I appreciate very much your seeing my side of it, too. And I'm glad you get what I mean.

Thank you for bravely thinking about it to this extent when you're already in pain. I really do understand how and why you felt that way and expressed those feelings.

This is a really raw time for you. Take care of yourself and focus on all the beautiful things about your friend. THEY WILL ALWAYS BE THERE and will not be LESSENED by this last act. Despite this, your friend will be judged by the quality of his life -- his LIFE, not his death.

Sice i was about 10 years old i was told i suffer from autism.

All my life i have been bullyed in school and aslo out of school from my mum and dad and brother at the age of 15 in 2005 i was all most raped but my mum and dad blam me for it and my mum and bad & brother was kinking puching and slaping me allmost my life now i am 21 year old and i have no friends but i did to until my dada told me that they are not friends and he told them to lef me and do't be my friend anymore so that is a part of my life and now i think its time to go up there to heven but i can't do it alone?

Can somebody pls help me?

This is how i feel but i have had this feeling inside of me sice i was about 10years old but i aslo suffer from autism.

I really and still thinking of killing myself but i can't do't alone