"Innocent" flirting and its effect on marriage/LTR

Hi,

I am here again because I received excellent advice regarding my situation and would like your opinions on something that I have never quite been able to understand.

In my life, I have observed quite a number of married men that consistently flirted with women. The majority of them are now divorced or have had serious marital problems.

My question is this:

1 - In your opinion, how "innocent" is innocent flirting? And I don't mean openly and intentionally looking for a lover in an extramarital affair; not that. What I mean is the subtle teasing, joking, complimenting, the consistent trying to get women's attention, hand lingering on shoulder, hand holding or other intimate stuff that could easily be (mis)taken for affection or friendship rather than obvious "coming on".

2 - How badly do you think it may affect marriage?

3 - The third question is, I think, the most complicate and the one I am most interested in getting a reply to.

When married men do this, why do you think they do it?

I know it must be vaguely connected with ego, but how?

In my experience, the men I have observed who used to do this, are now mostly separated, divorced or in a bad marriage; so do you think these men are subconsciously looking outside the marriage for what they do not get in the marriage, that is, attention, playfulness, some physical contact, etc.?

P

I've noticed this behavior with some of my friends who are in an exclusive relationship (either engaged or married). I can't say that I've ever done this, or if I have it was subconscious/unintentional.

Some of them I believe do it just because that's who they are, they tend to be very outgoing and casual with other people and sometimes it seems flirtatious even if it's not.

Others I think do it because they want to feel desired... and in those cases I wonder if the women in their lives aren't giving them the attention they need to feel loved and wanted so they seek out attention elsewhere as a self-esteem adjuster. I know she doesn't mean to but on occasion I'll feel neglected and at those times I'll usually just go do something else to take my mind off of things. I've never been a very flirtatious or outgoing person but I can see how someone with that kind of personality type might try seeking attention elsewhere.

I think most of the time you hear stories of men neglecting their spouses but men like to feel like they are loved and desirable as well, they're just not nearly as vocal and rarely get visibly upset over it.

I think if a woman sees her man being flirtatious with someone else, rather than get upset she needs to do something to redirect his attention right then and there and remind him that no only does he not need to look elsewhere but when he gives YOU attention it can be more rewarding, and maybe warn the 3rd party that they should look elsewhere. I know for me if I were to go do something to take my mind off of things a simple reminder in the form of a surprise kiss or embrace would go quite far to turn my day around and make me redirect my attention to HER.

I think there is too much of a "blame the other spouse" if the partner flirts and strays. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR STRAYING. If the partner feels unloved and unwanted then that should be communicated within the relationship...if communication doesn't work then leaving the relationship is the option...NOT looking for attention elsewhere while still coming home to the homecooked meals and a warm bed. People who can't stop flirting have relationships that go bust because the partner gets sick and tired of playing second fiddle to everyone else.

This is actually not something limited to one gender. In my circle of acquaintances...I actually notice the women doing this more...(only slightly more though). I think it s just a play for attention most times, but it certainly creates strain on a marriage. Any sexual attention (however benign) away from your partner is bound to cause a rift.

Okay well, in my other post,

This guy that is 30+ and has a fiancee was flirting with me. Fiancee found out.

I know now that he did it because 1) she wasn't sleeping with him and he thought I would, 2) she treated him like * * * * and I was actually being nice to him and 3) because you still get attracted to people even if you're in a relationship.

Since she found out, they are pretty much on the verge of seperating and I've been told that it's not really my fault but it kind of pushed their problems to the top and made them both realize they werent right for eachother. So that in a sense, while it hurts the other person, it might help you to understand what it is about that person that's not working for you. I don't mean it's like this for everyone because some people do flirt and its harmless, but the person they're flirting with might not take it that way. I took what this guy was doing as just flirting but apparently it was definitely a lot more than that because as soon as she found out everything he had said directly to me or to his friends, he backed off very quickly.

I'm a jealous person so I flip * * * * over flirty texts or anything. Anything that could hint that you're into someone else (even just a little!) automatically means you get the boot and I'm not talking to you anymore.

There is a line between flirty and friendly and its not a thin one either. I always try to think of it as what the other person is feeling like. If my boyfriend/fiance/husband is consistently flirting with another woman, I can't help but wonder what she feels about it and whether she wants the flirting and thinks its fun that a taken man is flirting with her or if she is completely oblivious to it (probably not.)

So, all in all, if you're in a LTR, or any relationship really, being nice is fine, being flirty isn't. The only person you should be calling "baby" or "sweetie" should be the person you are with. IMO, you should not get physical with anyone (such as the hand holding, excessive hugging,) except the person you're with because there are too many parties involved and someone is bound to get hurt.

Best to just flirt with whoever you're with.

Hi omfgzwhat, interesting reply.

Thanks

«There is a line between flirty and friendly and its not a thin one either.»

Can you expand on this a little? In certain circumstances, I do not think the line is always so clear.

« I always try to think of it as what the other person is feeling like. If my boyfriend/fiance/husband is consistently flirting with another woman, I can't help but wonder what she feels about it and whether she wants the flirting and thinks its fun that a taken man is flirting with her or if she is completely oblivious to it (probably not.)»

This is a very interesting perspective too, but why focus on what the other person feels? How does it matter?

...subtle teasing, joking, complimenting, the consistent trying to get women's attention, hand lingering on shoulder, hand holding or other intimate stuff that could easily be (mis)taken for affection or friendship rather than obvious "coming on".

That is called "plausible deniability." It's a way of going just far enough to see how the other person reacts while maintaining the ability to claim it as a misunderstanding of a simple friendship word/gesture. IF someone is taken/committed they are taken/committed, period. Otherwise that is called "trolling for an affair" not flirting.

2 - How badly do you think it may affect marriage?

It can destroy. Flirting is not a good message to send to one's partner about how valued (or not) they are. (i.e., if you are wildly attracted to your own husband, flirt with HIM. If you are wildly attracted to someone else's husband and want to flirt, you need to reexamine your marriage BTW this works for either gender, it's not a specific "you" but a general "you"

3 - The third question is, I think, the most complicate and the one I am most interested in getting a reply to. When married men do this, why do you think they do it?

Again, not gender specific. People flirt for attention, validation, horniness, selfishness, sociopathic reasons, no reason at all, not thinking, sex addiction, lack of self control, anything! But if the flirter is in a committed relationship then I would definitely question their commitment...

So many times I wish some wo/men could be a fly on the wall when their wo/men flirt, email, Facebook, etc. other wo/men. It recently happened to me AGAIN - I had an old boyfriend come trolling by, this time with subtle questions about what I looked like and letting me know/bragging how slim he looks. I responded with an assertion that I weigh 300 pounds and to f off. I showed the emails to my husband and he just laughed!!! But if I only had his wife's email address... I wonder what she would have seen in the subtext of his email... I bet she would have been as uncomfortable as I was. Troll!

There is a line between flirty and friendly and its not a thin one either.

I would tend to disagree... based on the discussions in this thread alone I would say that my definition of the term is quite different than what most other's are defining it as..

I would say there is a difference between flirting (joking around/small talk/non sexual comments/compliments with the waitress at restaurant, or someone in front of you in line at the store) and hitting on (calling someone "sweetie", trolling your ex via email, initiating a physical contact, etc.)

I wouldn't call the first "straying" but I would say the second is without a doubt wrong... also it depends on the person.

My grandfather pats everyone on the shoulder, calls them sweetie and chats them up, that's partly his personality and partly due to when and how he was raised... what's right and what's wrong really depends on the person, but at the end of the day their spouse should know what is typical of their character and what is not, and more importantly if they're doing something that bother's them they should let them know.

if I was ever acting in some way that made my fiancee uncomfortable I would hope she'd tell me right then and there.

1 - Touching (any sort, unless accidental) is absolutely crossing the line, in my opinion. The other stuff depends on context and is a judgment you need to make for yourself.

2 - Well .. I suppose it puts a marriage at risk so in that sense it is hurtful. How badly depends on all those factors such as the strength of the flirting and intention behind it. Will it lead to something your partner will eventually find out about and end up ripping their heart out? Or alternatively, will you end up disconnecting from your partner because you are connecting to someone else? All that stuff woudl be very harmful to a marriage but will flirting take you there? It's a risk and the size of the risk differs in each situation.

3 - I can tell you why some of them do it. Some of them find it very flattering that an attractive woman will be in their company. Will talk to them. Respond to them. Give them the time of day. They like knowing you and being on some level of familiarality with you. Somehow it makes them feel more attractive as men. of course there are those looking for more, but at its lowest, that's what it is.