Help! I just dont know what to do..

Yesterday, I grounded my 14 year old daughter from the computer and the phone because she was saying very inappropriate things to her brother and to me. She has been a troubled teen for over a year, lying, stealing, calling me names that a 14 year old shouldnt be saying to her mom. I would repeat what has been said but its full of vulgarity with the f word and all the rest. She tells her brother hes a fat a&^ and to go eat his feelings...

Anyway, yesterday she basically ran away to her fathers,whom she has not seen in a year, he brought her home a few hours later.. Today when she came home from school, she immediately started bugging me to use the phone. I told her she was grounded and I would not all her to use it.. She was anger, and left, I assumed to use the pay phones in our apartment. I took a shower, when I got out, my son told me she came back, took 3 DVD's and said she would be going to a friends here in the complex.. First of all, she doesn't have friends here. I live in a bad area too.

I cant even begin to know where to look for her. However, I do know she will come back when she feels like it. The police have been out here about a half dozen times, I have thought about calling them, but I know they cant do anything unless she is here..

So, I have no clue what to do here, Obviously, she will not be allowed to leave the house without permission from here on out.. But what else? Also, I dont think I am helping her, and I need outside help. Are there any programs that can help? What do I need to need to do to get her into a home with people who can handle her, or even a camp? Her father abused her in 2000, I have tried to have a civil relationship with him but so far, he cant seem to be mature enough and just talk to me about things..

If anyone has any ideas, I would desperately love to hear them.

Penny

I'd get her into counseling to address her past and anger issues. Also, it might benefit you to get her involved in a mentor type program, like Big Brothers Big Sisters. Talk to her teachers at school and see what local and county programs are available to help you guys out. I know the county here has preventative services that can come into the home on a regular basis to help you out.

I am currently working for one of the programs you are looking for, but not in your part of the country. There are all sorts of residential programs, day programs and psych programs that take kids exactly like your daughter. What usually has to happen is she needs to be diagnosed by a doctor/mental health professional and likely processed through medicaid. Does she have a juvenile record- you mentioned the police have been there? If so, sometimes these programs are court-ordered... anyway, do a search on the internet for teen/youth services in Arizona. Do it as soon as possible because it sounds like she is getting more and more out of control and the sooner there is some intervention, the better. Good luck.

I would repeat what has been said but its full of vulgarity with the f word and all the rest. She tells her brother hes a fat a&^ and to go eat his feelings...

My ears would have been ringing for a week for that...LOL

However, I do know she will come back when she feels like it.

Lock the door.

Don't let her in. It's YOUR house and Your Rules.

My mom shoved me out of the house in -20C when I was a smart ass....no jacket, nada...

pissed and scared as hel* when she did that...but I learned real fast..lol

She doesn't respect you. Bottom line, She pulls her crap and gets away with it.

Crime and consequence.

Drive out into the middle of the desert....and have a little conversation about her behavior....see what happens then...lol.

Jerk her Chain for a change...

Actually, she could have abuse allegations if she locked her 14 year old out with nowhere to go. It's considered neglect. I think it'd be more effective to get her into some sort of intervention program.

How does she treat other adults? How does she act in school?

Actually, she could have abuse allegations if she locked her 14 year old out with nowhere to go.

Which her daughter is well aware of...

So mom needs to concoct a good solid LIE.

i.e. Daughter stated that she was going to spend the night at a friend's house and as a result mom took the opportunity to go out with her GF's. So of course there was no one at home and the door was locked. Why dear daughter would think otherwise clearly makes no sense. After all, she informed mom she was leaving to be with her friends and even took 3 DVD's for their shared entertainment.

I can't tell if you are joking or not...but I think this young girl needs more of a therapeutic intervention rather than her mom concocting a way to lock her out and lying about her real intentions. Something is going on with her and it needs to be addressed before it gets worse.

She needs help. She is crying out for it. Talk to school counselors about local programs.

Enigmatika - I also cannot tell if you are joking or not. However, Mom locking out a 14 year old is a criminal act as well as neglect. Then, lying about it??

What is that showing to the child? What lesson does it teach? Does it really show an abused child that she is now safe and secure?

^^^

Her father abused her in 2000, I have tried to have a civil relationship with him but so far, he cant seem to be mature enough and just talk to me about things..

Ok...found the abuse point. I had focused more on the Abuse being dished out by the daughter onto her mom.

Point by point breakdown

esterday, I grounded my 14 year old daughter from the computer and the phone because she was saying very inappropriate things to her brother and to me. She has been a troubled teen for over a year, lying, stealing, calling me names that a 14 year old shouldnt be saying to her mom.

Abuses both her mother and brother. What can be done to stop that? Not much...

I would repeat what has been said but its full of vulgarity with the f word and all the rest. She tells her brother hes a fat a&^ and to go eat his feelings...

"Nice"...tell her to stop...and she continues...Slap her, and mom is charged with abuse. Catch22.

Anyway, yesterday she basically ran away to her fathers,whom she has not seen in a year, he brought her home a few hours later..

The father that abused her? The type of abuse is unknown...SA/ VA/ EA/ PA...why would she run back to her abuser? TO jerk mom's chain even harder.

Today when she came home from school, she immediately started bugging me to use the phone. I told her she was grounded and I would not all her to use it..

Refuses to acknowledge certain privileges as being revoked due to past bad behavior? Where does that leave mom for reinforcing? No where. Nada.

She was anger, and left, I assumed to use the pay phones in our apartment. I took a shower, when I got out, my son told me she came back, took 3 DVD's and said she would be going to a friends here in the complex..

Sneaks off at first opportunity...is that somehow mom's fault? don't think so..

First of all, she doesn't have friends here. I live in a bad area too.

I cant even begin to know where to look for her. However, I do know she will come back when she feels like it. The police have been out here about a half dozen times, I have thought about calling them, but I know they cant do anything unless she is here..

Places herself in potential danger' willfully against her mother's wishes? Whose fault is that? Not her mom's.

So, I have no clue what to do here, Obviously, she will not be allowed to leave the house without permission from here on out..

She doesn't care one whit about "permission" she has chosen who is in charge, she knows that mom is handcuffed by the laws. Kid are very much aware of many of the laws...you would die laughing listening to them enumerate the ways in which Parents can do NOTHING...

But what else? Also, I dont think I am helping her, and I need outside help. Are there any programs that can help? What do I need to need to do to get her into a home with people who can handle her, or even a camp? Her father abused her in 2000, I have tried to have a civil relationship with him but so far, he cant seem to be mature enough and just talk to me about things..

If anyone has any ideas, I would desperately love to hear them.

She jerks her mom's chain by going Back to her father's place, the man that abused her? I am guessing mom left when she found out about the abuse.

It was made very clear, crystal clear in my home by my mom, that certain things were going to be met head on very fiercely.

I can't tell if you are joking or not...but I think this young girl needs more of a therapeutic intervention rather than her mom concocting a way to lock her out and lying about her real intentions. Something is going on with her and it needs to be addressed before it gets worse.

What good will that do, when the primary enforcer is the one being disrespected? The view point I am using here, is one in which there is NO option for outside intervention. Not all countries have that luxury. Keep that in mind. I am not joking about being locked out of the house in -20 weather either. My mom did exactly that. The nearest neighbor was a Long Haul away. Want to call that "abuse"? I don't. It was a lesson on who is in charge. If I was sooo darn smart....FLY little birdie...major "Reality check"

It is also not clear whether or not her daughter was in for counseling/ therapy. Also not precisely clear whether or not the father was charged.

Minus the potential for sexual /physical abuse by the father as a complicating factor, my thoughts remain unchanged. Kids know how to work the system and manipulate their parents. They are pro's at the game.

Enigmatika - I also cannot tell if you are joking or not. However, Mom locking out a 14 year old is a criminal act as well as neglect. Then, lying about it??

How is it criminal? Kid took off of her own volition. Mom locked the door. If she wants to play that game....there are consequences. or there SHOULD be...but in this day and age, there are NONE..and parents wonder why kids continue to do what they do...LOL...I don't. I know "why"...because they CAN...It's really that simple. Mom needs to learn the rules of the game and learn how to twist them. That, believe it or not is all she is currently left with.

What is that showing to the child?

That mom is onto her game and can and will put an end to it.

What lesson does it teach?

The lesson, that this is MOM's house and their are rules to be followed and if she can't deal with that, she can try that somewhere else.

Does it really show an abused child that she is now safe and secure?

She is currently NOT in an abusive home. She IS Safe and Secure. She IS abusing her mother and brother. Why should they tolerate it? Since when are KIDS in charge of the household?

First of all, the OP lives in Arizona. There are programs in every state to deal with out of control teenagers. She just has to find them and take advantage of the resources around her. Just because it straightened you out to be locked out of your home does not mean it will work for this girl. She has been abused and is probably in a lot of emotional pain right now.

You state that she's trying to hurt her mother by going back to the man that abused her. That man is unfortunately her father. I am a foster care caseworker. I deal with abused children on a regular basis. Kids that are abused by their parents. Guess what, they STILL want to go home. For many kids, mom is mom and dad is dad no matter what they have done to them. They will always want the love and acceptance of their parents. I think you are severely ignoring the damage that abuse does to a child by saying she's doing it just to make her mom angry. To me, this child is hurting and is acting out because of that pain. It's easier to be angry and act out rather than acknowledge the pain of what you went through and deal with it. Especially for a child.

And the mom was doing the right thing by not letting her use the phone. Just because this girl got upset about it doesn't mean that she has to give in (not saying that she did). She has to stick to her guns and if she finds out that her daughter did sneak away to use another phone, well there's another punishment.

My point is that this young girl has some emotional problems going on. Sure, slapping her and locking her out might show her "who's boss" and the mom could find a way to get away with it, but it would be completely ignoring the real issue going on. That would just make things worse. This young girl deserve to get the services she needs to deal with the emotional things going on so that she isn't angry for the rest of her life.

Oh and no one here has said the mom is at fault. She is not responsible for her daughter's behaviors. It was just said that she should seek services to help her and her daughter. That does not imply fault at all.

Lastly, neglect IS a criminal act. As a mandated reporter of child abuse and neglect, if I caught wind of a child being purposefully locked out of there home with no where to go, I would have to make a CPS call. A 14 year old is not prepared to take care of herself and her parents are the ones with the responsibility to do so. You may not like it with your point of view, but it doesn't change the fact that it's neglect.

I think you are severely ignoring the damage that abuse does to a child by saying she's doing it just to make her mom angry.

Never suggested it was just to make her mom angry. She is very much aware of what she is doing, but perhaps not Why. They are not the same thing.

To me, this child is hurting and is acting out because of that pain. It's easier to be angry and act out rather than acknowledge the pain of what you went through and deal with it. Especially for a child.

Of course. Also stated, was unknown whether her daughter was in therapy.

She has to stick to her guns and if she finds out that her daughter did sneak away to use another phone, well there's another punishment.

Altogther useless as what can mom do if daughter decides it doesn't matter? What is her recourse? ...Find someone else to deal with her? Put her in a group home?

Sure, slapping her and locking her out might show her "who's boss" and the mom could find a way to get away with it, but it would be completely ignoring the real issue going on.

Sure, but it keeps her off the streets and safe from being raped or otherwise in a position of further exploitation.

You may not like it with your point of view, but it doesn't change the fact that it's neglect.

Neglect?

Working Definition:

 

Neglect occurs when a parent (or person legally responsible) fails to provide a minimum level of care by doing something that inflicts harm, allows harm to be inflicted, or creates an imminent danger of harm. The harm, however, does not result in the kind of serious physical injury that is defined as physical abuse.

 

# Excessive use of corporal punishment - Parent uses a stick to punish a child that leaves

bruising on the legs and buttocks

# Misuse of drugs or alcohol - (i.e., a four-year-old child is found on a street corner at night

because the parent is drunk at home and unable to supervise)

# Misuse of pornography - Parent allows a child to watch pornographic movies on a regular

basis, and the child begins to act out the scenes with other children at school

 

Neglect also occurs if a parent (or person legally responsible) fails to provide a minimum level of care锏ood, water, clothing, housing, medical and dental care, education and adequate guardianship閠o a point at which the child旧 health and welfare are compromised.

Examples:

- A parent who is homeless refuses to accept emergency housing and is sleeping under

a bridge with his or her child in the winter

- A parent doesn急 provide food, and the child is underweight and listless

- A child旧 educational progress is impaired because the parent is aware that the child is

missing school and fails to do anything about it

- A child has painful tooth decay and the parent does not seek dental care

- A preschool child is left home alone by the parent

Nope....not applicable.

CHILD NEGLECT - Defined by state statutes. Usually arises from a parent's passive indifference to a child's well-being, such as failing to feed a child or leaving a child alone for an extended time.

She can sit by the door till morning...where is the neglect?

The U.S. law

There is a political movement for greater parental accountability following of a number of highly publicised violent crimes committed by children. While all US states allow parents to be sued for the various actions of their children, the idea of criminal legislation to enable the prosecution of adults for “neglectful” parenting is relatively new. For example, a number of states have enacted or proposed laws that will:

 

* automatically hold parents financially responsible for all expenses associated with a second false bomb threat or 911 call made by a child;

* impose a prison term of up to 18 months and order payment of restitution to any victims if the child commits a serious crime;

* imposes a fine and/or a prison term if a child uses a gun owned by the parent to commit a crime

* fine and/or imprison parents whose children fail to attend school or skip school more than 10 times in a year.

 

Such legislation is constitutionally problematic in that it is often both broad and vague, and may very well infringe upon the privacy of the family. The sponsors of these laws argue that parental delinquency is usually the cause of the juvenile delinquency, but opponents argue that there is little evidence to support the claim that youth crime is caused by “bad parenting” and that there are many other social, cultural and economic causes that should be addressed. As more parents are forced to work long hours and hold two or more jobs to earn enough to cover basic family needs, it is less appropriate to cut federal spending on social welfare schemes and medicaid, and likely to produce injustice if parents are prosecuted for being unavailable to supervise their children. But, California enacted the Street Terrorism and Prevention Act 1988 with prison sentences of up to one year and fines up to $2,500 if parents “grossly” or “culpably” deviate from the “normal” standards of supervision, and the California Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of this Act.

The law is a little 'iffy':

NEGLECT

 

Neglect is the consistent failure by a parent or caretaker to provide a child under 18 with appropriate support, attention and affection. Most reported neglect cases involve lack of proper food, shelter, clothing, medical care, educational opportunities, protection and supervision. Some neglect is a result of ignorance. Other forms of neglect involve deliberate maltreatment of the minor.

A one off Lesson is Not neglect...it just might keep her safe from the streets.

enigmatika,

Although I believe you are just arguing to argue that you are right, I'm going to humor you.

You quoted this definition: "Neglect also occurs if a parent (or person legally responsible) fails to provide a minimum level of care锏ood, water, clothing, housing, medical and dental care, education and adequate guardianship閠o a point at which the child旧 health and welfare are compromised."

"Other forms of neglect involve deliberate maltreatment of the minor. "

Locking a 14 year old out of the house is failing to provide a minimum level of care, food, water, HOUSING. I'm not sure why you are reading it differently, but there it is in the definition you provided.

Then, the exchange between you and another poster. Other poster wroter: "Sure, slapping her and locking her out might show her "who's boss" and the mom could find a way to get away with it, but it would be completely ignoring the real issue going on."

Enigmatika wrote: "Sure, but it keeps her off the streets and safe from being raped or otherwise in a position of further exploitation."

I would like to know how in the world locking a child out of their house would keep them safe from being raped or exploited. From the training I've gone through, this only increases the odds drastically to it happening.

I'm going to repeat what Daligal said to you, just because you think it is right does not make it so. To give advice like this is extremely irresponsible.

juicey, you said what I wanted to. Who says that the girl would sit and wait on her mom's doorstep? Who says she won't go wander the streets instead? Who says that some psycho won't see her sleeping on the doorstep and hurt her? The fact is that by locking her out of the home, even for ONE night, she is NOT safe.

If one of our foster parents ever locked a child out of their home because of the way the child is acting, we would definitely call CPS and I bet you the call would be taken. The fact is, there are other safer options that can be explored to help this family. There's no reason to jump to the extreme of locking her out.

Locking a 14 year old out of the house is failing to provide a minimum level of care, food, water, HOUSING. I'm not sure why you are reading it differently, but there it is in the definition you provided.

NEGLECT

Neglect is the consistent failure by a parent or caretaker to provide a child under 18 with appropriate support, attention and affection. Most reported neglect cases involve lack of proper food, shelter, clothing, medical care, educational opportunities, protection and supervision. Some neglect is a result of ignorance. Other forms of neglect involve deliberate maltreatment of the minor.

Failure to provide needs to be consistent.

Who says that the girl would sit and wait on her mom's doorstep? Who says she won't go wander the streets instead? Who says that some psycho won't see her sleeping on the doorstep and hurt her? The fact is that by locking her out of the home, even for ONE night, she is NOT safe.

She was wandering the streets anyways. What is the fundamental difference? None. She left on the sly. She is wandering about. Who is then to blame if she is harmed? Her mom can't find her. She left of her own accord and is nowhere to be found...and the mother is to be held accountable for not keeping her in the home while she went to take a shower? Should her mom have to lock her IN the house? Let me guess...that is some other form of abuse.. CATCH 22.

By your logic she is to wait up all night for her daughter's hopeful eventual return? She has to work in the AM and get her other son off to school...and she is dead exhausted.

She had been grounded from using the phone...took off when mom was in the shower. No further information from her. She shrugs off the disciplinary actions of her mother, and takes the ball into her own court. Someone suggested slapping another disciplinary action as a result of that...LOL....like she even cares! That is where you lose the argument. She will NOT be told what she can/ cannot do. She acts in willful defiance of any corrective measures.

Well meaning adults without any understanding of just how far this little girl is willing to push the boundaries are going to slap a "Neglect" charge on the mother for locking her smart mouthed defiant daughter out of the house? ... you think her daughter doesn't know the "game"... Make no mistake...it is a 'game.'

The police have been out here about a half dozen times, I have thought about calling them, but I know they cant do anything unless she is here..

So, I have no clue what to do here, Obviously, she will not be allowed to leave the house without permission from here on out.. But what else? Also, I dont think I am helping her, and I need outside help. Are there any programs that can help? What do I need to need to do to get her into a home with people who can handle her, or even a camp?

SHe will leave with or without permission.

Get her into a program out of the home with kids even more messed up than herself? Foster care?

When A Child Needs Protection

Few of the children who are reported to Child Protective Services are removed from their homes. In most situations where verified family problems exist, the families and CPS work together cooperatively to resolve them. However, under certain circumstances, the law does allow a police officer or a CPS representative to remove a child for up to 72 hours (not counting weekends and holidays) for protection while the investigation takes place. Within 72 hours, the child must be returned home or a dependency petition filed in the juvenile court. A child also may be removed for up to 12 hours for a medical or psychological evaluation. If the CPS investigation shows that the child must remain out of the home for a longer period to protect him/her from harm, CPS arranges for safe, temporary care.

Child is not in Danger being at Home...the problem is...she takes off on her own..

Law enforcement officers and CPS specialists may remove a child from the parents if a child is suffering or will imminently suffer abuse or neglect, or for a medical or psychological examination to determine if the child has been abused or neglected. Parents whose children have been removed from the home are given a Temporary Custody Notice within six hours.

IF She was "locked" out...still not neglect.

Abandoned

Is defined in ARS �8-201(1) as 鋳he failure of the parent to provide reasonable support and to maintain regular contact with the child, including the providing of normal supervision, when such failure is accompanied by an intention on the part of the parent to permit such condition to continue for an indefinite period in the future. Abandoned includes a judicial finding that a parent has made only minimal efforts to support and communicate with the child. Failure to maintain a normal parental relationship with the child without just cause for a period of six months shall constitute prima facie evidence of abandonment.

Not applicable.

Neglect

Physical neglect is defined in A.R.S. �8-201(21) - "Neglect" or "neglected" means the inability or unwillingness of a parent, guardian or custodian of a child to provide that child with supervision, food, clothing, shelter or medical care if that inability or unwillingness causes substantial risk of harm to the child's health or welfare, except if the inability of a parent, guardian or custodian to provide services to meet the needs of a child with a disability or chronic illness is solely the result of the unavailability of reasonable services.

Not applicable.

Locking a 14 year old out of the house is failing to provide a minimum level of care, food, water, HOUSING. I'm not sure why you are reading it differently, but there it is in the definition you provided.

LOL....you need to read the LAW. It is rather specific. In Arizona, she would have to be in direct conflict with it, and as she has called the police multiple times in dealing with her daughter, she is clearly NOT neglectful. To lock her out ONE time or two...she is well within her Rights.

From the training I've gone through, this only increases the odds drastically to it happening.

LOL....and did your training mention that the odds are the same when she takes off of her own accord?

I'm going to repeat what Daligal said to you, just because you think it is right does not make it so.

Not a question of "right", it's a question of what WORKS. Didn't suggest anyone had to "like" it.

If one of our foster parents ever locked a child out of their home because of the way the child is acting, we would definitely call CPS and I bet you the call would be taken.

It would depend though wouldn't it? If not, then what?

The fact is, there are other safer options that can be explored to help this family. There's no reason to jump to the extreme of locking her out.

Locking a defiant child "out" is not extreme, it is demanding that acceptable behaviors be the practice in the house. That it is a privilige and NOT a right to have a good home. although one would beg to differ, the stats do not support it..

I cant even begin to know where to look for her. However, I do know she will come back when she feels like it.

When she "feels like it" she will come home..."nice" set up she has created for herself...but what IF mom took that away? She may think TWICE before pulling that line of bull.

...my point of view is from a young brat who used to "play the game" ...until mom got smart...

For the record, it's not a question of "right", it's what is most effective without bringing third parties into the equation.

While I can see Enigmatika's point of disciplining a defiant teen, her current behaviour has been years in the making.

A 14 year old doesn't just wake up one day and start verbally abusing her mom and brother and shrugging off discipline. At some point her respect for her mom and brother became compromised, if it was ever established at all.

The whole family would probably benefit from in depth counseling and the daughter might need to be place in an in-patient program.

If this isn't handled soon, then besides the daughter putting herself in danger with her own behaviour, she's causing damage to the rest of her family and it probably won't be too long before her younger brother finds that he can do whatever he wants the same way his sister did.

This problem needs to be addressed with the whole family. NOT just the teen being punished.

Sunshine....EXACTLY.

Enigmatika, again, you are ignoring the WHOLE definition. You cannot pull one part of a sentence or definition and claim that it makes you right.

No, neglect doesn't need to be consistent to be considered neglect. One instance of deliberate mistreatment is neglect. Again, unsure why you are ignoring that part.

I have seen cases where the parents were investigated and charged with neglect after leaving their kids in the car while shopping. It can only be proved that it happened one time, and yet they are still charged.

Not only are you advising the poster to do something illegal, you are advising the poster in a very delicate situation with her child and giving advice that is totally contrary to legal laws and I can guarantee that a child therapist would never go along with what you are suggesting.

When you have children, it stops being about how quick to solve a problem or brush them off anyway you know how. You are dealing with a person that is your responsibility to let out in the world at 18. You have to do things that are not the quickest or the easiest.

Enigmatika, again, you are ignoring the WHOLE definition. You cannot pull one part of a sentence or definition and claim that it makes you right.

Hardly. I pulled the definitions from Arizona CPS. From those definitions you cannot prove me wrong, your opinion does not make it so.

One instance of deliberate mistreatment is neglect. Again, unsure why you are ignoring that part.

Cuz it wouldn't stand up in court...that's Why. Prove it was "deliberate."

I have seen cases where the parents were investigated and charged with neglect after leaving their kids in the car while shopping. It can only be proved that it happened one time, and yet they are still charged.

Dependant on the circumstances. We both know that.

Not only are you advising the poster to do something illegal

Without 3rd party intervention was the original premise...but you would have to Prove that her intentions were "illegal"...and you would not be able to. That is the point.

I can guarantee that a child therapist would never go along with what you are suggesting.

lol..because the "laws" would not allow it.

You are dealing with a person that is your responsibility to let out in the world at 18.

She let herself "out" into the world at the age of 14...? Your point?

You have to do things that are not the quickest or the easiest.

LOL...didn't say it was "easy"....Reality Checks rarely are.

If this isn't handled soon, then besides the daughter putting herself in danger with her own behaviour, she's causing damage to the rest of her family and it probably won't be too long before her younger brother finds that he can do whatever he wants the same way his sister did.

 

This problem needs to be addressed with the whole family. NOT just the teen being punished.

^^^^Well said.

I agree with Sunshine that the whole family should be getting treatment. OP, I know in my area there are agencies that specifically provide family counseling. I think you should see what's available in your location.

juicey, I agree with what you said too. But we're not here to convince Enigmatika to change her way of thinking and I doubt we'll be able to do so. I hope the OP sees the support she has here and seeks out some services to really help her entire family.

Enigmatika, I am not arguing my opinion. I am pointing out to you that you are only using a few sentences of the whole definition (that you provided, I am only pointing out what you posted) to argue your position. You are not including were it says other instances of deliberate maltreatment are considered neglect.

You can argue this all you want, but it is illegal and not conducive to helping anyone in the entire situation. Because you are not caught or give a good lie does not make it legal or helpful to the OP.

Daligirl, you are entirely correct. This is too important to take it over the thread with arguing. However, I do believe it is important when posting about a delicate subject that you should not give out advice that would harm a child.

I agree juicey. I've just decided not to argue it anymore. I've said my piece and I hope the OP has gotten the answers that she wanted. I'd be happy to help her look for services in her area if she wants.