The Law and Friends/Family

Had an argument with some friends resulting in the likely loss of those friendships. The reason? I said I would report them to the police if they broke a law that could result in harming someone. Morality, to me, must be constant or it's not morality. If you have to make loopholes that undermine your own ethical paradigm then should you even consider yourself ethical? We were watching this show on Tru TV (formerly Court TV) where a friend turned in his best friend of some-odd years for vehicular manslaughter.

Many of my friends remarked on how low that is while I stated that I'd do the same thing. They asked why and here was my answer. There are regulatory infractions and then there are crimes of malice. In my opinion, if I witness the breaking of a law that can, or has, result in the harm (physical, emotional, etc) of someone not involved, then I consider myself duty-bound to report them, friend, family member, or stranger. My stance is that there is no one above the law and I owe it the victim (or possible victim) to report. They said that loyalty matters the most and I replied that I don't wish to be friends with people if they would do something they know could harm someone.

Example, a group of 18 year olds at a friend's house try, say, 1 glass of an alcoholic beverage. I'd be fine with it from a moral standpoint because they didn't endanger anyone as well as, in some cases, private property/cultural exceptions to the law could be argued and it;d be fruitless to contest. The bottom line is that if controls were put in place, and no outside person would be harmed, that's fine. Take this same group, except they go put to bar, fake ID's, and drink. Here I have a problem because they are risking the bar's license, which affects the employees, the owner, and family members of them. They are also endangering, if they drive, the lives of people on the road. Finally, if they are not the kindest drunk, they could do property damage as well as assault on other people. The potential for bystanders to be hurt in some way makes me feel that reporting is the best idea.

I understand that loyalty to friends is important but if those people force you to choose them over the well being of other people, then they are not friends.

After explaining this the majority stormed out of the room while muttering "Benedict" and similar meanings and phrases that meant they consider me untrustworthy. I feel that I was in the right, after all they were all clamouring that the friend was a snitch and a backstabber.

Any of you face similar predicaments where you had to choose between a friend and what's right?

In the example that you give, drinking in a bar with fake ID's, it's the bar's responsibility to ensure that they check ID's properly, don't overserve, and protect their license, staff and property. You're talking about reporting a situation where no damage has been done, they haven't gotten drunk yet and you're taking on a responsibility that belongs to the bar.So I can see where your friends might see you as overreacting and being a bit of a stick in the mud.

Legally, it;s the bar's job, but morally, they're choosing to lie and deceive someone. If they drive (and these people in mind can drive) what then?

Hmm...I would choose you to be my jimney cricket, but probably not to be my friend.

But getting into a bar fight can apply to anyone, not just 18 year olds. As for the bar losing the license, I agree, that's specifically the job of the door/ID check person. If they risk losing their license, then that's their problem too. I've gotten into bars where they knew I was under 21 and they still let me and my friends in! It's definitely not as big a deal for them.

As for the drunk driving thing, I would hope that I can convince my friends to avoid the situation before I'd be in a situation to have to report that, such as being the designated driver or arranging for a cab. I'd probably nag them to death first on the dangers of drunk driving. But yeah if I knew my friends were drunk driving and couldn't diffuse the situation, I would report that.

I feel like the attitude you're having is, if my friend is doing something wrong, I'll go to a higher authority as opposed to I'm going to try to convince them otherwise. I mean friends have a lot of influence. I wonder why your first instinct is to report them rather than take the wheel and drive them?

For the bar scenario, I dislike alcohol and the mere scent of it makes me sick. I do nag them whenever they are thinking of doing something that could involve things like that. The end result being they rarely invite me along or discuss the where's and when's detail wise in my presense. They do say that I tend to affect the mood just by being around. One of them said it's a "moral aura" and that I don't have to say anything for them to know if what they're doing is technically wrong. To avoid it, they make concrete plans without me and don't invite me which I'm fine with, but makes things strained at times.

In theory yes - its a good idea to turn people in if the do something that can potentially harm other people.

In reality I would however not act like that. I would make a decision on a case-by-case basis. For something like DUI I would not hesitate to turn people in. For minor things (like underage people being served alcohol in a bar) I would say, that this is simply not my job. You can always speculate about what could happen - because everything we do carries a risk.

I think it would be a very lonely life to interfere so much on other peoples life.

If I went out actively pursuing them, then I'd agree I was interfering, but if they invite me along, it's not interfering.

For the bar scenario, I dislike alcohol and the mere scent of it makes me sick. I do nag them whenever they are thinking of doing something that could involve things like that. The end result being they rarely invite me along or discuss the where's and when's detail wise in my presense. They do say that I tend to affect the mood just by being around. One of them said it's a "moral aura" and that I don't have to say anything for them to know if what they're doing is technically wrong. To avoid it, they make concrete plans without me and don't invite me which I'm fine with, but makes things strained at times.

Just remember that there is a very fine line between taking care of other people and being on a moralist. It is also important not to take people learning experiences away from them. People do learn much from their mistakes.

Preventing people from doing something disastrous is good - but genereally interfering in what they do is bad. Its their life.

Just remember that there is a very fine line between taking care of other people and being on a moralist. It is also important not to take people learning experiences away from them. People do learn much from their mistakes.

 

Preventing people from doing something disastrous is good - but genereally interfering in what they do is bad. Its their life.

But don't bystanders and "innocents" have the right not to be affected byu the 'learning" of, well, people acting like idiots?

But don't bystanders and "innocents" have the right not to be affected byu the 'learning" of, well, people acting like idiots?

No - this is why I said that if people are going to drive under influence I would not hesitate to turn them in. Neither if they are starting to make troubles or fighting. You could speculate that this could happen if someone underage starts drinking in a bar - but again - much older people could DUI or break out a fight. More likely there would not be any problems. As for losing the license - this entirely the responsibility of the bar owner.

I think that you have tendency to see things as more risky than they really are, as well as seeing it as your moral obligation to turn people in if they do something your perceive as risky (and against the law).

I sense that this discussion will be a bit fruitless. So I will just finish by saying, that its quite ok to be a moral person, but in my mind you are stretching it way to far.

Older people can do those things, however simply drinking, while it could lead to those things, is not illegal for them, it is, in the US, for those under 21.

But don't bystanders and "innocents" have the right not to be affected byu the 'learning" of, well, people acting like idiots?

The example you gave (your friends using fake ID's to get into a bar) doesn't necessarily have any negative effects for other people. Your examples (the bar could lose its liquor license, they might start a fight) are all complete conjecture.

I can see if it was a situation would directly and withour question harm another person- like they announced they were going to go buy a gun and rob a 7-11.

My main concern would be- where does this behavior of yours stop? Are you going to call the police if your friends illegally download music? What if they purchase marijuana? What if you are in the car and they are speeding? What if they lie to get out of jury duty?

The reason we have laws is to protect society, so you could argue that any infraction, no matter how small, has a negative impact on society.

I agree with timebandit- this seems like an extremely lonely way to live yor life- appointing yourself as the morality police.

I want to agree with you but I can't... you are right in a "letter of the law" kind of way... but I would have a hard time hanging out with someone who I felt like I couldn't trust to be my friend first...

"Good" people are not always fun to hang out with. Also I would be careful before I held your friendships up to American laws...they aren't always right ether...

My main concern would be- where does this behavior of yours stop? Are you going to call the police if your friends illegally download music? What if they purchase marijuana? What if you are in the car and they are speeding? What if they lie to get out of jury duty?

No.

Yes.

If they are with the prevailing flow of traffic, nothing (Law in CT dictates the flow of traffic overrides the speed limit). If they are speeding past traffic, tell them to slow down then insist they let me out, then I'd call it in.

Yes.

No.

Yes.

If they are with the prevailing flow of traffic, nothing (Law in CT dictates the flow of traffic overrides the speed limit). If they are speeding past traffic, tell them to slow down then insist they let me out, then I'd call it in.

Yes.

Wow. I don't think you will have many friends for very long.

I want to agree with you but I can't... you are right in a "letter of the law" kind of way... but I would have a hard time hanging out with someone who I felt like I couldn't trust to be my friend first...

"Good" people are not always fun to hang out with. Also I would be careful before I held your friendships up to American laws...they aren't always right ether...

I can be trusted as a person, and people know where I stand and what I will do, that's good enough. As for the laws bit, until there's a global law system I can't report someone in, say, Kansas for an act that is against a theologoical regime's law.

Wow. I don't think you will have many friends for very long.

Seeing as I drive, rarely ride along with people, stay away from people who use drugs, and don't spy on people on their computer/mail, I think, in those instances, I'm fine.

Do you mind me asking how old you are? and what state you live in?

Do you mind me asking how old you are? and what state you live in?

State: New England: CT

Age: Not going to give it over the internet but the range is 20-35. If you need a more specific number then I shall give a more narrow field.

Seeing as I drive, rarely ride along with people, stay away from people who use drugs, and don't spy on people on their computer/mail, I think, in those instances, I'm fine.

wow... um... I would hope you don't need rides very often. Or meet new people before you perform a back ground check... What about things that are legal but not necessarily moral? like would you be friends with a stripper? or with someone who went to strip clubs?

wow... um... I would hope you don't need rides very often. Or meet new people before you perform a back ground check... What about things that are legal but not necessarily moral? like would you be friends with a stripper? or with someone who went to strip clubs?

What's classically moral and what's moral to me can be very different. Someone being a stripper would not be something I'd count against them. Many people do it to pay through schooling. Would I go to a strip club? No, because the scent of alcohol makes me ill. It's also not "my scene" but I hold nothing against the of age people that work/go there.

What's classically moral and what's moral to me can be very different. Someone being a stripper would not be something I'd count against them. Many people do it to pay through schooling. Would I go to a strip club? No, because the scent of alcohol makes me ill. It's also not "my scene" but I hold nothing against the of age people that work/go there.

What about seeing a prostitute in Nevada... it's legal in some counties there… would you be okay if a friend went there and paid for sex legally?

What about seeing a prostitute in Nevada... it's legal in some counties there… would you be okay if a friend went there and paid for sex legally?

Both parties of their free will, consenting, and of age, then no problem.

Both parties of their free will, consenting, and of age, then no problem.

But would you report a friend that is doing it in your own state where it is illegal?

In CT, illegal prostitution is connected to gang violence, kidnapping, drug violence, etc. The fact that most illegal prostitutes are not there by choice gives me more of a reason to report. So yes, I would as the free will and consenting points are already heavily in doubt + the associative problems with it in CT (gang/drudge/kidnapping etc).