Why choose trust and not jealousy? This is why. PART 1

This is not so much a thread about a particular situation, but a way of living, and larger/deeper questions about trust and jealousy in our lives.

For those who have been following my posts about the sad end of me and my ex, it's quite clear that there were many complicated issues that caused our demise -- one of which was our very different coping mechanisms, values and expectations around the emotions of trust and jealousy.

In a nutshell, he was a very private person who minimized speech about past gf's and also went out of his way to prove he had no need to engage in female attention (some of this involving secrecy and hypocrisy on his part, but I'll stay on target.) Meanwhile, I was someone who craved a "tell-all" kind of emotional intimacy, where we could disclose just about anything without fear of recrimination, and also to be able to maintain active opposite-sex platanic friendships (be they previous exes or not) according to our own discretion, based on the assumption of "innocence before proven guilty", open communication about it all, nothing hidden and "the honor system." So much of this threatened him, that I could never establish the trustworthiness I felt I deserved with him, and he found a lot to condemn me for, even though I had every intention of being his faithful partner for life, if that's what he'd wanted. Since this loss and grief, I have spent nearly a year trying to make peace with the mores that he had, since they seemed drastic and unlike any I've encountered with other men in my past. Many of his friends supported him in the charge that I was from some strange planet where people don't care about eachother's insecurities. I have explored the topic on this board, only to find that many, many people are in alignment with his viewpoint, and not mine, which has been disquieting, to say the least, as I view this as a diverse slice of the population.

But as I grow and heal, I am coming to see that what I value is viable and important, even if it's not embraced widely. And I wanted to share an excerpt from some reading I've done that articulates better than anything I ever said to my ex on the matter. First, though, a disclaimer: I don't wish to have a totally jealousy-free relationship, as I think a tiny bit is okay to occasionally be reminded of how much your partner means to you, and to be imperfect. And, there are times when jealousy has a real justification: as in, when someone is deceiving you, betraying you by breaking vows, going elicitly into relationships that you are unaware of, etc.

But there are many, many cases I read on these boards that do not fall into these categories, but rather are a matter of simple possessiveness combined with insecurity that is not based on any actual violations of the partner. The argument that's been given to me in defense of this behavior is: it doesn't matter what your partner feels insecure about in a situation, it's up to you as a loving SO to prevent that insecurity from arising.

What I have been asking is a more fundamental -- and more difficult -- question: why should we just accept the status quo with our insecurities? Why do we have to say that just because we are "human" in this way, that that justifies our demanding that our partners cater to this? This question opens a real can of worms of self-exploration and indeed, self-improvement. It's so much easier to just say "I am what I am" and be done with striving.

Such is not the road I wish to take, which may be a reason I'm alone now. I love what the Dalai Lama said at a lecture I saw him at recently: "Hatred, anger, jealousy, envy -- these are all very, very human feelings. No one is saying that you can easily eradicate them, nor that they should be rejected as part of the human psyche. However, the human mind is like a grocery store: you go there and try to buy the items that are good for you, healthy for you, that create happiness. You do not choose the junk food. So, in this way, you choose not to pick up those negative emotions and buy them. They are there to buy, but you keep choosing other things, again and again until you want to buy them less."

This is my basic belief about jealousy -- that when it is abstractly applied to situations in relationships apart from concrete evidence to support mistrust, it is like any other damaging emotion, such as envy. Would I wish to hold envy near and dear and give it its proper due (a close cousin of jealousy, perhaps even the flip side of it) if I could help it? Would I want to cultivate just a little "healthy bit of hatred" because it is "human"? I don't think so. It's okay to feel anything and everything -- and then, those destructive or unproductive emotions, to transform them.

I have come to feel that jealousy, which is just the desire to possess someone out of fear they will reject us and love someone else more, is about ME. When I am jealous, when I go deep into that feeling, past the surface fear, what lies at the root of it is feeling inadequate next to someone else. Someone I think is more successful, pretty, sexy, "together", talented or just plain more attractive for whatever reason to my SO. It is not about my SO, it is not about the competitor, even, it is about my internal state of self-concept. The person is merely a trigger for me, bringing out those parts of me that I feel lacking in. So the antidote to jealousy is not a band-aid treatment. It is not a quick-fix -- "Honey, stop talking to/hanging out with/being friends with/flirting with that person who makes me feel inferior". The person who has "made me" feel inferior has simply shone a light on my own self-assessment (and/or my confidence of my status to my SO and our relationship), and so when the pain of insecurity arises, I want to examine that inwardly to discover what it is I want and don't have, what I wish to emulate in my own life and haven't, that this person represents.

So, I think the work to antidote jealousy is to find out what it is we want to be and become, to bring that to the relationship (that being the only part we have control over), not to try to stamp out reminders of what we aren't, or to try to chain our SO's souls to us as though they were belongings we own.

When I see that jealousy is completely a self-reflexive state (outside of the caveats I gave in legit situations), I stop seeing my partner as someone who can control this mindstate, and asking them to do things to placate it. It amazes me again and again on this board how people are told the common wisdom that "no one can make you happy but yourself, no one can make you whole, no one else can make you love yourself" and yet, there is this double-standard that your partner can make or break your sense of security. And should be called on triggering you in such ways. So basically, this means that even with all the superficial, "I do not need another person to validate my worth" line, there is a conventional undercurrent that says their behaviors dictate our feelings and that is their problem, making them squarely responsible for us feeling secure and trusting and happy. This is backwards (and contradictory to the owning of ourselves). If you choose not to live in fear and doubt, you will live with a sense of supreme security that is inviolate by anyone's actions. You simply judge your relationships on the merits of their own strength or weakness. I always maintained with my ex that "no one can make or break us but us," and he'd be on board for about a day with that. Then something would come up to trigger his doubt and jealousy, and telling me I was insensitive and "not protecting him", when I felt I'd been nothing but respectful by being the partner to him I'd want to have myself.

A lot of people ask here, "do I have a right to be jealous?" The answer is "yes." You have a right to be envious, to hate people, to be bitter, to be jealous, and so forth. Does that make you happy? Does that lead to the best possible relationship? I think the Dalai Lama was spot on about this. If you can find someone who shares the values of jealousy and bitterness as a form of "entitlement," it just might work. And in fact, does in many cases. Who am I to judge. I could say, it is all a matter of opinion. Who was right, my ex or me? On one hand, I'd say no one was right or wrong and be nice and politically correct. On the other hand, I'd have to ask if we cannot improve on ourselves and our relationships, and strive for something even more "enlightened"? I don't mean at all to sound holier-than-thou, I am just expressing what I feel to be a spiritual, not just emotional response to having a relationship of great value and quality.

I am no paragon of emotional "control", and struggle myself with jealousy myself a lot. And have, in my relationship with my ex. I cried a lot over women I perceived as threats, and daily, I experience petty jealousies as well, just like everyone. The difference is that I want to not just accept this status quo -- I want to use these feelings to strengthen myself, not abdicate from it and blame other people for why I feel less-than. It really is up to me, and I feel in the end I will get out of this exactly what I put in. The end result being a wider, more accomodating, more liberated, strong and loving relationship and self. Because love is like a candle: you can light a million candles, infinite candles with one, and never take away the main candle's light. So if my heart for my SO is the Big Candle, I can still light as many others as I desire in my life, and it will never take away the brightness of my love for my beloved.

Stay tuned for the book excerpt I mention above, relating to this thread, in PART 2.

That was an excellent post. The bottom line is that we can all feel jealous, insecure etc at times...but if we are comfortable in our own skin and are happy within ourselves we won't let those jealous feelings control our lives. It is interesting that on these boards...the insecurities don't typically come out with regards to someone being more intelligent...it always has to do with the superficialities of looks and fitness. I often see things like "she is prettier than I am"...."she is uglier than I am"....."we broke up and I immediately lost 10 pounds, went to the gym everyday and look amazing...now it is his loss" etc. It is very sad that people can't be happy within themselves and have to ruin relationships with their jealousy and insecurity.

Jealousy is almost always about the person bearing the emotion, not the object of it.

We are jealous of those that make us feel inferior or insecure.

Yes, a small amount of jealousy is healthy but it must be kept in check because most of the time it is based on fear, and many times irrational fear.

Thanks, Crazyaboutdogs and Jaded Star, for your comments. I appreciate it! (I don't expect this thread to get much traffic, lol...)

I think it takes a lot for people to dig deep and try to figure out what really motivates their behavior, thoughts, and feelings in the first place. I am kind of envious (how ironic) of people who follow the path of least resistance and end up happily paired off. Even if it is what I consider in a way that is uneccesarilly limited.

Yes, JS, MOST of the jealousy I see is irrational (my therapist says there is no such thing as an "irrational" fear -- all are based on something that has happened in the past to affect us, but as you and I mean it, it means nothing in present time warrants the fear). I think there is not crime in feeling it occasionally, even telling your SO you feel that way and being vulnerable, but if they say, "Oh sweetie, c'mon, you know I would never do anything with them, who needs it when I have YOU! You're my IT! (kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss all over their face.)

That SHOULD suffice. Especially when they KEEP doing those things, little and big to show how they adore you and don't neglect you. So after that, it is up to you to just DEAL with your emotions, to meditate on them and figure out what is it that's bothering you so much about this other person and either decide you don't need to be like them, or figure out how you'd like to cultivate something you like about them within yourself, FOR yourself and no one else (not even for your SO, because they like YOU for YOU.)

Crazyaboutdogs, thanks for your support, yet again. I feel like someone out there DOES understand me! Yes, it IS sad that people ruin a good thing...I feel so sad and (less often) angry that my ex destroyed what could have been a lifelong, beautiful relationship due to these insecurities. I did give in a lot to them, and yet it never seemed like enough. Yes, people can be so superficial is what they are basing their emotions on -- all of it matters, because this society places so much emphasis on looks, money, material things. If you want to make a come-back, get a new car (what my ex apparently did after our break-up) to look like a hot guy, or get thin if you are a woman. No wonder people are so lonely. After the glitter fades...we have ourselves and our own inner demons to face, and no one can help us with those but us.

Great thread. Thank you.

Wow, that's cool, slightlyjealousguy, that you just read this! I was just posting to YOU about these issues and suggested you read this. KUDOS TO YOU, BUDDY!! I'm glad you are taking the time to ponder it all...as I was/am.

Hi and thanks for a great post. I am having a very hard time with a jealousy problem, it has ruined what could be a great relationship with the guy that was "the one" Probobly why this has gotten worse than ever in my life, I've never felt so scared of losing him. You are so right about how it is all based on insecurity. I hate jealousy, I think it is the most destructive emotion a person can have, and that jealousy monster rearing it's ugly head for almost anything, ridiculous!!](*,) I'm in my own private hell in prison. Putting a person through so much bad stuff for nothing, he never cheated or even came close, hmmm honor system? i screwed that one up big time. I have ruined more things over things that were "inside my head" Along with insecurity goes wanting to be the center of attention. When someone doesn't pay enough attention to you the way you think you deserve, well they must be thinking of someone else? or your'e just not good enough etc the list goes on so long that I could never even put it all in words. It was funny you said that there won't be much traffic to this thread. I bet there's alot more people out there with a serious jealousy problem, but are in denial and choose to blame everyone else. I for one am sick of living like this, and I regret with all my heart that I hurt the one person I promised I would never hurt. I hope someday he can forgive me, cause I will always love him. Anyways I hope you write part 2 soon, and thanks again for your insight. I really need to get as much help with this as I can. It's so hard

I agree that a little jealousy goes a long way ;-). I also believe in accomodating your partner to a certain degree if there are particular triggers that trigger jealousy. So, for example, talking about things you did with exes might trigger it and thereforeeee, compassion dictates that you try to avoid referencing that topic to the extent possible. Obviously if you end up having to hold back so much about yourself because it might trigger his jealousy, that has to be addressed, negotiated if possible.

But, I for one can live with saying "I went to [fill in the place name, restaurant, show, movie" instead of "Me and [my ex]" went to such a place. Sometimes he knows I probably went there with my ex, but he doesn't ask, I don't tell and it means I can reference the activity or movie without being in his face about my ex.

I find that sometimes people confuse being honest with telling all. Telling all is not necessary for a healthy relationship and indeed can harm it. I never ever want to hear specifics about my bf's prior sexual relationships - ever - even if it is a topic that he might discuss with a guy friend (not sure if he does, don't want to know). But that doesn't make our relationship any less honest- it just means we respect each other's boundaries that include certain subjects like that one that are off limits.

Dear TiredofVampires,

I read your post yesterday, and although I am a frequenter of this forum (and especially the Trust and Relationships area), I did not have an account and had not been compelled to respond to a post until this one. I think too often people change someone's life and are left unaware of it. I try to make sure people know how they've changed my life, better or worse.

I am experiencing a situation much like SlightlyJealousGuy (only with a boyfriend, not a husband). They have been broken up for over two years, and he and I have been dating for only 8 months. I should premise this by saying that this is the best relationship I have ever been in. We both respect eachother so much, we are open with eachother and not afraid to tell eachother exactly how we feel. We're still getting to know eachother, and I am enjoying every minute of it. He really puts in a lot of effort doing things for me (often surprises), and I try to do the same for him. Recently, his ex girlfriend started messaging him on AIM because her and her boyfriend are having a rough time and she is thinking of breaking things off with him. She realizes now how good she had it with my boyfriend, and she has apologized for the way she treated him in the past and for not appreciating him. She then asked him to meet her for lunch so they could talk about it some more.

I like to consider myself a fairly reasonable person. I have been cheated on before, and I struggle with jealousy fairly often. I am sensible enough (usually) not to voice these concerns though, having been a firm believer in what you have said in this post. My boyfriend has never given me a reason not to trust him, or to believe that he would not be loyal now. It wouldn't be fair for me to make his life miserable because of how other people in my past have treated me. I know that my feelings are valid, and I know that I have the right to feel that way. But I am learning (its a tough course) how to stop thinking that way. Still, in this situation I had a much harder time than I have in the past.

After I read your post, I printed it out and took it to my boyfriends house. He read it, and we talked for 3 hours about it. He asked me what I felt insecure about, and I told him that I felt like she must have some stronghold on him to gain his trust back after treating him so badly before. He clarified, and said that he often is afraid that he'll grow old and regret that he hadn't put enough effort into his friendships. He doesn't want to live his life that way, and he wants to forgive people that have wronged him in the past. He said I shouldn't worry, because he was sure about his feelings for me and I should be too. After our talk, I realized how selfish I had been. I didn't want to be the person that stood in the way of his forgiving people. I actually liked that he was such a forgiving person - who was I to act like this was wrong?! If we ever broke up, I am comfortable knowing that we could be friends and he would forgive the mistakes I had made.

I don't know his ex girlfriend. I don't know what her intentions are on meeting up with him again after this long. But honestly, I don't care. I'm happy that my boyfriend is able to forgive her after all of this time and all of the problems they had. I am confident that if her intentions were less than pure, he would be sure to make it clear to her that he was happy with me.

Anyway, I wanted you to know that sometimes people do things and they are not sure if it will ever benefit anyone. Sometimes people write posts on here to a group of people that don't seem to share their opinion at all - and I wanted you to know that I read your post and it really spoke to me. It IS important for a person to contantly review themselves and be sure that they are being the best that they can be. No one can be perfect, but if you don't try to better yourself and your relationships with other people, what exactly is there to live for?!?! I read a study one time that said that people, when they are older and reviewing their life for the mistakes they made, often only look at their personal relationships with the people in their lives and how they changed over time. That careers and money came after how people treated their loved ones. I think this is a good area to focus on now So good luck in this, its hard work but I think it will be SO worth it.

-Rebecca

Is your boyfriend going to tell his ex before he meets her for lunch that he is in an exclusive, committed and happy relationship with you? If not, are you ok with that?

Is your boyfriend going to tell his ex before he meets her for lunch that he is in an exclusive, committed and happy relationship with you? If not, are you ok with that?

And to piggyback on this further, given the fact that she is regretting their break up and wanting to talk about it, I don't think it is appropriate that he is moving forward iwth this lunch.

I know Batya and i disagree on lunches and such with an ex, but I would think perhaps she would even agree that if the ex is really intent on rekindling the romance that perhaps the best thing to do is make it VERY AWARE ahead of time that he is in a happy and committed relationship or not go if the ex is insistent that this is the topic on her mind. I think the invite should be declined given the precursor in all honesty. THere is nothing for them to talk about since he is already in a relationship and she wants to talk about starting a new one with him.

There is a very fine line seomtimes between warranted and unwarranted jealousy. IN this case I feel I would have warranted jealousy and concern.

I agree with Jadedstar that in this case the ex does not have the ability to be platonic friends - she is vulnerable because of her current relationship, she's expressed romantic feelings in Rebecca's boyfriend, and to see her does verge on playing with fire. A friendship has to include if not happiness about the other person's romantic relationship then at the very least acceptance of it. If he wants to "help" her he can have a short conversation on the phone, explain his relationship status and perhaps suggest that she seek counseling (and refer a good one if he knows of one). That's being a friend to her while still behaving appropriately.

Thanks for the reply. He actually has already told her all about me and how well our relationship is going when she asked how he had been doing during their initial online conversation.

What I've learned about jealousy is that its important to protect yourselves from bastards... but its also important to be able to distinguish between bastards and good guys

Yes - but even assuming he's a good guy I think he is showing poor judgment by trying to be platonic friends with this woman at this particular time.

She hasn't told him she's interested in any kind of relationship with him, she got together with him to talk to him about her relationship and to get advice from him on how to handle it. I don't think this is a threatening situation, and if she DOES show signs of wanting a more intimate relationship than a friendship with him, I am confident that he will do the right thing. I don't think its wrong to stay in contact with your ex's, and I don't see the problem with this.

What you wrote:

Recently, his ex girlfriend started messaging him on AIM because her and her boyfriend are having a rough time and she is thinking of breaking things off with him. She realizes now how good she had it with my boyfriend, and she has apologized for the way she treated him in the past and for not appreciating him. She then asked him to meet her for lunch so they could talk about it some more.

That to me would scream loud and clear that she regrets the breakup, is in a vulnerable state of mind and wants to see if things can be re-sparked.

I have no issue with staying in touch with exes - I do, my bf does. But we would not have one on one time alone with an ex who was in a fragile state of mind over her relationship and had expressed those "regrets" about the past relationship. Playing with fire - just my humble opinion. Also very fishy as to why she wants him of all people to advise her. We just have different definitions of what it means to be a friend - to me being a friend to someone you were once intimate with in that state of mind means being supportive but without putting oneself in an awkward position. It can be done but your boyfriend seems to be of the mindset that being a friend to his ex requires seeing her in person and giving her advice on her lovelife. Since that's ok with you, that's all that matters.

I am very touched by some of the responses here to my thread, by istillluvu and now, dreamer. I have only a moment to post right now, but have a more extensive reply to both...thank you to both of you for your insights and also courage, which is inspiring!

Just for now, dreamer --

I am so very moved by your comments, and thank you so much for letting me know that I made such a difference with my post! It's very gratifying to know, since I have been feeling a bit disillusioined lately with a lot of what I read here. I started on ENA in the jealousy and trust forums, because of the damage these issues caused in my breakup and relationship, where I felt I was at odds with the "world" and out-of-step in my beliefs, though I felt deep inside that these were issues I had to understand better, at least for the "post-mortem" sake of everything my bf had meant to me. I wanted him more than anyone I'd ever wanted, I loved him with all my heart and soul, and lost him in large measure to issues relating to trust, mistrust, and jealousy. Much of it was entirely sanctioned by his friends, all yes-men. I had never encountered the likes of it before, even though I had had seasoned relationships and some had ended with jealousy issues in the mix. But this was a groundbreaker in the ways I was hurt and chastised and condemned for what crime? Having deep faith in us and wanting to be treated with the trustworthiness I felt I deserved, and giving that in return. With total honesty. (edit: I should say that by the end, due to his reactiveness in the past as a pattern, I no longer was giving him the same level of honesty I was at the beginning, because I was so afraid of losing him and fearful that he would not listen to the facts. It was a disservice to both of us.)

I think it's amazing you were able to communicate so well with your bf, and really listen to eachother. That is what it is about. It is about two people sitting down and saying, we have a commitment, and here are these external situations. What are they REALLY about? Are they REALLY a threat to us, and if so, how? I think just that process brings you closer to eachother -- didn't you feel after this talk with him about your insecurities, where he was listening and responding to them instead of lots of assumptions and pre-conceived notions carrying the day, didn't you feel even more bonded with him? To have this kind of understanding? It's not like your needs to be heard in your vulnerabitlity weren't being met, he was there to face them with you and challenge the concepts and worries you carried in your head. This is part of growing as a couple, and you should be VERY proud you could do this with composure and with your heart open.

I feel this is the rarity. People has these "pat" rules that do not do justice to PARTICULAR SITUATIONS, which is what frustrates me about these threads. It's not about "what is REALLY happening here" but "what does this LOOK like?" It is an extension I believe of our instant-judgment society, our quick tempers, our "me-"culture, our "looking out for #1", in fact even our love of sensationalistic drama with tinges of Puritanical overtones (we are still so quick to want to pin a Scarlet Letter on someone here.) People in this society are concerned a lot with appearances and images, to the point that the "truth" doesn't stand a chance. I found myself arguing alone in a courtroom with my ex and his "cronies" stacked against me, and in coming here see why. Many, many people do base their values on a party line thinking. This is not to offend of put any posters down here, some of which have intact relationships which work, and so more the power to them. I am addressing the limitations that I have felt when pressured into that kind of "mold" and how it's broken my heart and what I think the gulf of misunderstanding is about: it's about having to do the dirty work of "going within" for answers instead of outside for simple validation of fears and insecurity.

As you can see, it is very hard to be heard on this. So I'm again, so glad you (and others on this thread) have expressed the value of my reflections. I see a lot of similarity between your situation and slightlyjealousguy, and as you can tell from that thread, if you've been following it, I am at a statemate there. What do you say to a guy who says he's "happily married" for almost a decade, but then says ONE COFFEE face to face with an ex who is far in the past is worthy of threatening divorce after the kids leave home? (By the way, posters here are condeming their get-together on the basis that 20 years have passed, so what is the point? Yet if she was a recent ex, they would attack it for the wounds being fresh, still. So you see, you can't win here, no matter what, there is a reason to put the whole thing down. If the ex is 20 years history, tht means he's up to no good; if he is recent, that means he is up to no good. There is a just a blanket "cook by the numbers" categorical phenomenon going on in people analyzing these situations I think.) What do you say to someone who seems to have a stable relationship, who then is so afraid that having a coffee with an ex will destabilize it, except: this marriage must be very rickety and not as "happy" as you say, or else you have a deep-seated latent trust issue that is just now surfacing, and you really need to take a good hard look at that. As you can see, I am getting nowhere on that thread, as women and men alike disagree that lunches and coffees with exes are "a threat" to the marriage and that in similar cases I've presented from my life recently as the "ancient ex from 20 years ago" that my exes need to "protect" their family by not associating with me.

This has nothing to do with what is actually happening, but merely decorum. It is PURE DECORUM. Which to me is like having a polite relationship, not a deep and real and open and trusting one. I can practise the highest integrity without having to follow this ARBITRARY decorum, for my own life. I want to live with what IS and find out what IS, not live on by some manufactured protocol, "just in case." Again, no offense to those who find this a form of "respect." It IS a form of respect, but for me, it is at the cost of respect for other things.

dreamer, by respecting your bf's past relationship and his devotion to you, and allowing him to prove himself trustworthy, you are respecting something else that is very important. You don't have to sacrifice your self-respect to have respect for his sound judgment in this situation and putting it in his hands. That is REAL trust! All the people who think this ex might be "out to get him back" with ulterior motives forget that the man has self-determination, as you say -- there is this underlying fear lurking that our SOs somehow can't or won't put their foot down and state their intentions at the time. All these "precautions" and "pre-emptive" strikes are totally about assessing the situation as it goes along and crossing bridges that need to be crossed when you get there. You can have a lunch with someone and if they start to make unreasonable and seductive comments, you can take action at that point. You don't have to forego the lunch itself, presuming this could happen. You leave it open, and you leave your partner in charge of being the executor of his/her life in a way that will satisfy his need to communicate with this person, while still honoring your relationship.

Aside from making arrangments to cheat, it really doesn't matter what the conversations is about between the two of them, that is their business, and that is the critical piece here! I was fine with my ex wanting to have tea at his home with an ex of his, UNTIL he suggested to me that "I might not feel okay with that" and so he didn't want to invite her. Strangely and paradoxically (to this forum) that made me MORE jealous as I started to wonder if she really WAS a competitor to me. Why would I have the need to worry about her visit with him, unless he thought I had a reason to worry...? So for me, his "asking my permission" only highlighted to me that she was someone I could see as having some special "hold" on him that I would have to "pre-authorize." This got my imagination going, and NOW I WAS INSECURE!! If he had casually just said, "Hey, Lisa's coming over for tea later today", I'd have said, "Cool!" and later "How did it go?" I'd hope that he'd be able to share their conversation, since there's nothing to hide, and would have accepted it if part of it was, "she's going through some tough stuff right now with Joey, and I told her I'd keep that confidential." FINE! That's what FRIENDS ARE FOR, and if my bf can be as you said, forgiving, caring, and loyal to his friends, even his exes, that says something about his character and what he will give ME. Yes, you are seeing something that went TOTALLY over my ex's head: that because I treated everyone with loyalty, that meant he would get the same. Because I didn't just drop people in my life and switch camps, that I defended my right to continue to be someone they could turn to, he would be someone I'd never let go. He totally missed that.

A lot of people here take the "moderate" conservative position here that it is okay to be friends, so long as you don't see the ex, or see them ONLY with you around. I dunno, the last time I needed a chaperone for private, confidential conversations was....I can't remember when. There are some things I don't feel privy to, and respect as private among two friends. My bf should be more than a lover, he should be my best friend. I also expect that if he makes a good friend to me, he must make a good friend to others. And exes know a lot about one another to be able to give advice (my best friend here is an ex who knew so much about me in a relationship from personal experience, he could advise me better than other friends in my new one.) So, if we accept that our partners make good friends, then why shouldn't they be able to have lunch and talk about whatever concerns them? That should be respected, too, no? It seems that only one limited half of the story should be "respected". Even though you have a primary relationship with your SO, that doesn't mean any of it is lost by having close relationships with others, even exes, and when I say "close" I mean that sometimes their dirty laundry is not something you should be in on every single date. I truly believe an ex who is still part of one's life, so long as they know the score with your relationship, that it is strong, and respect it, is part of having our own lives to maintain apart from our SOs which is important in a relationship.

Even though, dreamer, your bf's ex has said she sees the error of her ways and wish she'd known better, that's not the same as agitating to get back with him. I don't jump to that conclusion either. It is so easy as I said to jump to conclusions. It will bear itself out and as you said, she may just need to have gotten that off her chest to express that she was clueless before. It may be a good ego boost to your bf (it would be to me, to hear that from MY ex, after being so hurt!), but that is as far as it would go, very likely.

At the end of the day, you are coming home to eachother, hopefully to share all this with some good, intimate pillow talk!

I think you are on firm ground and are absolutely right on to go forward without suspicion here. No one is keeping anyting from anyone, everything has been laid out on the table. That is the main thing, being above board and showing your hand. The problems start when there is lying and avoiding talking about things. You have done everything right. Keep me/us abreast of how the meeting goes for him/her, I'd like to know how it's all unfolding. Continue to be strong and choosing trust when it is so easy to fall prey to doubt, before, during and after the fact, even when it is baseless.

P.S. So much for a brief reply, lol -- you can see how passionate I am about all this!! It has deeply impacted my life.

Am I reading right that you observed how others analyze situations that are posted on here that have to do with contact with the ex and give opinions like "this sounds fishy" or "this sounds ok, because of x and y" and you observe that those opinions are typically rigid or go along with a black and white set of rule or a checklist? If so (and I apologize if I didn't read properly) didn't you just give your opinion (that it sounds fine) at the end of your post? How do you differentiate between your analysis and the analyses you critiqued?

I don't think my opinion is anything more than an opinion, just like everyone else's. My opinion here about others' opinions, is just another opinion. If it resonates with some, that must mean it has some merit, and I feel as an angle that is in the minority at least in this community it seems, I think it is worth mentioning that fact. That is all I meant in my "critique" or "analysis." Other than to feel that my opinion is possibly preferable, which is what everyone thinks their opinion is, but as anyone knows of my posts, I have deeply questioned my own opinion publicly here, too, as I've tried to square, reconcile and make peace with my beliefs with the mainstream. As I see it as the "mainstream." Because my relationship damaged what I felt was a core belief in myself and my values. When my ex left, I felt like a rotten human being, who had "done him wrong", the echoes of his hollaring, "some day you'll know just what you did to me!" ringing in my ears. This year has been a quest to find myself again after that. Find the person I naturally am and want to be, and examine where that fit into his allegations and who and what I want for my life and love.

My primary point with this thread and responses is to talk about the issues themselves of trust and jealously. Only secondarily am I mentioning that it is hard to get this alternative viewpoint accross, as we are a conditioned society and it runs counter. That is going to be germaine to my Part 2 in this series, upcoming soon. Which as I said, please stay tuned for.

I want to emphasize that my mission here is to talk about our emotional obstacles and realizations, not put anyone's approach down. I may personally feel or come to conclude during this process that people are operating from a limited framework, but limitation is all a matter of perception.

There is a very fine line seomtimes between warranted and unwarranted jealousy. IN this case I feel I would have warranted jealousy and concern.

The way I look at it is, the only "warranted" jealousy is when there is something concrete that has been established as a sabotaging intent on any party's end. And even then, I feel that knowing the heart of your SO is key in determining what you DO with that jealousy.

I have given an example elsewhere of the situation of my ex, who was still being pursued by his last ex. He even went so far as to play her adoring message (in Spanish, so I didn't understand a word, except for the "darling" and "mi amore" ones) on his cell voicemail, to show me that for some reason she couldn't let him go. Another person might have flown off the handle hearing this, but I actually appreciated having a voice to put to the name, and the transparency of this, as he had spoken of their dealings and how she had been lately causing him some inconvenience. He was still helping her pay for a few expenses she couldn't afford and doing other things to be supportive of her, and by his account of it, she was not "getting the message" that he was no longer romantically available to her. I saw this scenario as quite benign, as far as I was concerned. All I needed to know was that he loved me and I was the "new girl in his life", and so I really felt nothing but concern for her being out of touch and in ways, felt sorry for her. I also felt a little fear, like "what if I ever found myself in her situation?" (now I am in it, and I would never chase after him the way she was.) But I had no problem with them going out to dinner as he took the liberty to do, since I felt that his love for me made him impervious to her own wishes. You could call me naive, but I call me trusting, that is what trust is -- that when someone says something to you, you believe them. You cannot believe your beloved and disbelieve them at the same time and call it trust. In hindsight, knowing more about him, I am not sure if he was gaining a secondary sense of pleasure in the power he had over her, and just how much of this help was "altruistic" and how much self-serving in an ego-sense for him, but that's a moot issue.

As I mentioned in my OP, I do believe that there is room for feeling a "tiny" bit of jealousy. "Tiny" is of course very relative, and arbitrary. But by my definition, it is that little voice that needs reassurance that we are as lovable and desirable and wanted, above all, and if we share these moments of insecurity with a lover, this should be met with compassion, love and words to help us see and feel how much we are truly appreciated and adored beyond compare. Other than this, I don't think actions should be taken by the hand of jealousy, or restrictions put into place that have to be "abided" by to appease the Green Monster. I don't wish to feed the monster with my actions, though it is alright to voice and feel moments of jealousy on a very occasional basis, and in fact it helps us to be reminded by our SOs how special we are to them, and irreplaceable. There is a fine line between THAT and altering our behaviors based on this and having this dictate the relationship limits. I think it is far more convincing and uplifting for our partners to every day express their affection and delight in us, to keep bolstering us up with cheerleading about the ways we don't feel we are most confident (which is as I said, the root of jealousy), to reinforce the positive in us, rather than to feed that Green Monster which is fear of the other person shining too much, in a cloak.

Suspicion based on nothing factually threatening that is starting to develop, but based on conjecture and projection to me is not "warranted" jealousy. IMHO.

Out of all the words in your last post and the other posts I think the most important one was the acronym "IMHO" - your posts and the title gave me the impression that you were opining that your decision on where to cross the line between trust and concern, jealousy and comfort - was one that was based on correct thinking and that we should all try it.

I was relieved at the end of your story to see that you just mean it to be your personal opinion. In particular, I think it is very contextual since I assume you are referring to the guy you only spent a short time with in person. IMHO, the length of a romantic relationship (meaning from the time you meeet in person - that's how I personally define the length of a romantic relationship) certainly impacts the issues of trust and jealousy and how they develop. It doesn't make your personal views right or wrong but it's helpful to have that context from which to read them.

Bless you, istilllloveu, for humbling yourself so much -- sometimes the pains we have been willing to endure get to a point of "rock bottom" before we really start to look deep within to change ourselves and thereforeeee, our world.

I have already posted to you on another of thread, yours in fact. I see mirrored in you so much of what I saw with my ex, it is almost spooky. Thank you so very much for helping me to see how it must feel -- only with you, I feel there may be a lot more hope than with him, if he continues the way I heard him speaking to me last. Which was with utter vile contempt for these views I hold, calling me "crazy, f-ing naive, insane, ridiculous" -- all manners of the opposite emotion of love, to shame me for his hurt feelings and wounded pride, which was based on these insecurities. I think we are a product of the systems we were born into, coupled with the experiences we've had -- and so you are really, really on the right path here to searching for what lies at the root of this. Some people live with partners for a lifetime in a limited framework that includes jealously as an entirely viable aspect of the relationship, that should be honored. I am questioning that for myself, because it limits my life and the meaningful connections I can have. I don't want to have my friendships limited when they don't compromise my fidelity to my partner, as to me this is a huge sacrifice in the range of experiences I can enjoy and value, when nothing is being subtracted from my SO (this assumes I still give them predominance in my life, which I have always showered upon my partners). (The hard part being to find an SO on board with this, I guess.) However, for those people who have been raised with certain conservative social-sexual mores, I don't think for them, a mutual understanding of this kind is detrimental to THEM. The problem arises when one person feels attacked constantly for the choices they are making to live a free and open-hearted life. I also see the problem as one stemming from a rather distorted view of what the "highest" aim of love is, which is really to let go and let live, even with -- even with!! -- yes, your significant other. Which will be the content of the book excerpt I am still going to be posting in my Part 2, still to come shortly.

I think you've nailed it by stating it better than I did: that some people are in great denial about their jealousy. It is a very destructive emotion in MOST cases, I believe. As these boards attest to. Eventually, even in the best marriages, if they last a lifetime, they will be tested, since choosing monogamy is quite a feat, from a biological standpoint. Those of us who choose monogamy (and I am in that camp) do so knowing that temptation is everywhere around us, and that if we live in fear and constriction, we are setting ourselves up for quite a bit of pain. I think many, many people feel justified in this pain, as though it were a "right" and a "claim" to be filed. I think jealousy is even like an addictive emotion in that we use it to escape from our own insecurities by externalizing the blame somewhere at someone else. We make our own fears and insecurites someone else's doing. By making others responsible for our own inner worth like this, we are in a sense not really in control of our selves. But this is so sanctioned as behavior goes, it is an addiction of sorts and a denial of sorts that passes under the radar of acceptance and okay-ness most of the time.

I think it's interesting to contemplate, if jealousy is okay, who gets to defend how far this should go? We do not believe that a woman should veil her entire body in order for other men not to prey upon her or see her as a sexual being. Who are we to judge that this is not "too far"? What is "too far"? We will stand by our claims that it is reasonable to prevent a wife or husband from going out to lunch or coffee with their ex, or an opposite-sex friend because of "what could happen" -- but we will condemn cultures where they think it's entirely reasonable to ban naked midriffs. How does this really hold together? We think we are "moderate" and reasonable, but it is just exactly the same impulse, coming from the same place -- that is, the need to dominate our partners in some way, draw a ring around them, fence them off to some degree so that they do not wander or others do not trespass. People who say this is not "possessive" or "controlling" are really IN DENIAL, period. If you are being honest, call a spade a spade and we can shake on that. I do not call roping off your partner or voluntarily roping off yourself a matter of "respect", except in the limited sense that you are "respecting" the dominating, controlling cultural standards and controlling emotions that you have and follow as your personal bible. You are choosing to let emotions dominate your relationship(s) in ways, and while I think all emotions deserve to be honored, as I said, some need to be transformed or overruled for the good of something better, if indeed you want to live a more widely-encompassing life (and in fact, be loyal to all friends and do justice to all friendships, and enjoy them to the fullest, not just the one with your SO). That is not some ultimate "mark" of respect in all senses of the word, it is just respect in the sense that you accept the emotional status quo.

So yes, I believe it is truly very astute of you to say this. I think many people do not relate to this type of "denial" as such.

Thank you again for your insights, and also, as I mentioned in another post I made to you, if you'd like to PM me anytime, I'd really enjoy the chance to communicate more about what seems to be an interesting parallel situation to mine, with roles reversed. Maybe we can help eachother along to understand what happened to us, and how we want to heal and what it is we are trying to achieve. I don't know what specific things you did are to hurt your bf, but I do know this, that if I were to hear the words you've written here from my ex, my heart would be overflowing with love, emapathy and forgiveness.

I have said throughout this thread that these are MY opinions. I said that in my last reply to you as well.

But I also admit that I, like others, have a bias. I do believe there is something about my "idealisms" that is worth anyone "trying". Just like I believe that anyone could benefit from meditation, which I do. Some things just feel like they are "right" from a personal growth aspect to do and at least attempt to work towards. But I have made it very clear that throughout this, there is an element of my own belief system in operation and that others who can make another system for them work happily are well off to do so, if it works between THEM. It is a very interesting question to me, however -- if there are any universal "truths" that operate outside of opinion. For instance, a lot of people will say that the truth is, "God is Love." That sounds great until you hear another convincing arugument that says, "God is Everything, and since hate exists, God is Hate just as much as love." So what is universally true? If a lot of people subscribe to some base element, like fear or jealousy or hatred, does that make it okay, just because it is socially sanctioned? What about racism? If you REALLY believe that some people are inferior because of their race and you marry someone who believes the same thing, then you can live a happy life together. As RACISTS. Isn't there a "higher truth"? For the two of you, you can live a happy little redneck life together and be just fine. And you will not feel there is anything subjectively wrong with your heart.

I'm not trying to say you are wrong, Batya, nor is anyone else who disagrees. I'm just putting it out there that I am not SURE about some things being just a matter of opinion, vs. "higher reality/truth". And until I reach Enlightenment, which is not gonna happen, I am likely going to just stick with saying my thoughts here are all opinions. I really can't pretend to be so arrogant, especially since I am still questioning it all as a work in progress of my mind/heart.

I also think that the title of my thread invites in people who may be struggling with jealousy, and as you can see in these threads about trust and jealousy, many people really do not want to live feeling this way. Embracing their jealousy has not been working for them, so my title reflects an alternative way of seeing.

I would also like to thank you for the same "IMHO" on your opinion about what constitutes a "real relationship." I think personally it takes quite a bit of chutzpah for you to stand in judgment of what was "real" and what wasn't for another person, and what their capabilities are to start a relationship, based on the fact that I corresponded with this man first for 6 months who I had a very complex and full relationship with, albeit relatively short compared to my others. I don't wish to derail my thread here about this and go off-topic, but I do feel your opinion about this is not shared by a lot of people who have similarly met and subsequently married their beloveds. So I appreciate your admission that this, too, is an OPINION, not a statement of fact, based on what works for you and some other people, who find themselves in other circumstances.

What works for us and serves us does tend to become what we feel is "right" or "wrong", for lack of better words, or at least in common parlance. I think we might agree to agree on that.

One other thought on your post, Batya:

I think it is very contextual since I assume you are referring to the guy you only spent a short time with in person.

My views are not based solely on this relationship. These are issues about autonomy and spirituality that have affected me my entire life. This man only brought out a lot of lessons and teachings for me.

The significance of this is for me to assess, not you.

Thanks for sharing. I ws not judging what you thought of your relationship. I was giving my opinion based on my personal view of relationships. Just like you can believe that a romantic relationship can exist before the people meet in person, I can believe the opposite. I of course realize that to you you were romantically involved with this person before you met in person. What I meant was that if I were typing and talking to someone I had never met in person, the way I would view trust and jealousy would be impacted by the length of our relationship which to me would not begin until we met and started dating in person.

I am surprised that you misunderstood that. I will add that I find it a bit misleading when you refer to your "ex" as if you were together for a long time because - and I am sure you will correct me - the traditional understanding of romantic relationships is that they occur with two people who know each other in person (and thereforeeee don't start until that happens). Before you exxagerate what I said in your next post please note that I said "a bit." Thanks!

And thanks for clarifying again that this is just your opinion. Sometimes it's hard to tell whether you are sharing what you believe to be true of others in their relationships or just your own evaluation of your own relationships. For example, we disagreed on whether it was ok for the guy to see his ex for lunch who was still interested in him and where the line should be drawn between trust and jealousy. I found that your post seemed to suggest that your view of where that line was drawn was right for more than just you. I am glad to read that that was not what you meant!