"Remains to be seen"?

My b/f cheated on me (emotionally) last year (Aug). He met an exg/f from 20 years ago at a weekend wedding and started emailing each other about starting a life once his divorce is finalized. I met him 2 years ago when he was separated 2.5 years. I found the emails this past Jan. I was devistated. We were talking about starting a life as well. He wrote her a "Dear Jane" email and sent it in front of me telling her our relationship (Which she knew about) had grown and he had committed to me.

A few weeks later he said he wanted to send her an apology email since he hadn't apologized in the first one but that he didnt' want me to see that one but he might print it out later and show me. I was pissed to say the least. He finally told me 2 weeks later he had sent it (Apr 23). And he didn't wait for an email response from her (which I could have read exactly what she said) but called her 2 days later instead. I told him shortly after that I wasn't comfortable with them remaining in contact like I initially thought and wanted it all terminated from now on. He agreed. This is the email:

____________________________________

Tina:

I needed to get in touch with you after too much time had transpired and catch up with each other after much confusion do to my situation regarding Lisa, moving back into my house, and the final stages of my divorce. I am not sure what I was thinking or saying back in the fall, but know in retrospect that I made several mistakes in the process and hurt Lisa, you and myself. Please know that I had no intention of misleading anyone, including myself.

Since our last emails Lisa has continuously asked if I have been in touch with you and to date of course I haven’t. However, It has been bothering me ever since and I felt it best to clear the air. Lisa and I are still trying to work things out for we care very deeply about each other, and what I bring to the table is quite complicated and I want to be completely honest with her and myself at every step. When I was about to send the last email to you she asked if I could simply have a friendship with you and I said yes. However, will I ever fully gain her trust in me 100%, well that remains to be seen. Everything is out in the open as it should be and I will let her know that I got in touch with you to apologize for my actions which I take full responsibility for and the consequences that follow.

On a very positive not, my son has really come a long way and I am very excited that he will be attending University this fall. Also, I am pursuing my appetite for music by playing with a band and play virtually every weekend. Lisa joins me and sings with us now and then. She has an outrageous voice!

Anyhow, I feel like some weight has been lifted off my chest and that I can press on.

The best of luck to you and your program in and let me and my sister know how you make out.

I hope you are well. Keep warm!

Dave

___________________________________________________________

This part....

"When I was about to send the last email to you she asked if I could simply have a friendship with you and I said yes. However, will I ever fully gain her trust in me 100%, well that remains to be seen."

I get the feeling he is trying to let her know things might not work out with us and if she is still interested.... This had me upset since I found out (early May) and I have been more upset than usual which led to a fight Mem'l Day weekend where he started saying the same things he did last year after he met her ("I think I need some time"). I asked at one point "Isn't she coming to visit with your sister this July?" He said she was. I said "And are you thinking of going up there?" He said when he talked with her on the phone in April she had asked if she would see him and that he said he didn't know yet. I was pissed. "I thought you agreed to no contact with her anymore!! Did I have to add seeing her IN PERSON was included??!??! Why could you have even said you MIGHT go???" "I didn't know if you and I would still be together in July!" he said.

I was even more pissed. We got into a big fight and went to a therpaist 2 weeks ago for a 2.5 hr session where he agreed he won't go see her and his sister and another friend of theirs next month.

I saw that she called him last week. He said he didn't even see the missed call (he doesn't tend to check that phone often). I suggested he see if she left a message. He got very angry and said "Fine". He didn't put it on speakerphone and said no message was left but that he would call or email her and tell her not to contact him anymore. I said "You'll do it today in front of me?" "I don;t want to do anymore with email today! Ill do it this week or tell me sister to tell her" He hasn't said anything about it.

The real question I have is about the email part above: "When I was about to send the last email ..."

Does it sound like he was trying to tell her things might not work out for us and if she's still interested....????

to me, it sounds like that letter was written with you hanging over his shoulder, trying to pacify you more than anything. He knew you were going to read the letter, so he wrote things in there that he knew you wanted to hear.

the part about fully gaining your trust 100% sounds like a tweak towards you on his part, i.e., he feels like being 'just friends' with her is something you should believe, but he's not sure you will buy it...

i don't think he's telling her things might not work out, but it does sound like he is leaving the door open a bit to her. he should just be telling her, i'm sorry i jerked you around, i'm now committed to my girlfriend, and it is best for us not to see each other anymore. regardless of her friendship with his sister, he doesn't need to see her at all if it is adding friction to your relationship.

so i think he is 'giving in' to you but doesn't like it! i think you should just insist that he has no contact with her at all, and if he has trouble with this and keeps doing it, then you'll have to assume he doesn't want to be exclusive with you. if he's going to go behind your back, it could be this woman or someone else. he has to be committed fully to you and not form serious flirtatious situations with other women.

i would be wary for a while, til you see whether he was just trying to pacify you, or really is committed to you.

I wasn't hanging over his shoulder. He printed out the sent email and gave it to me 2 weeks later.

Lovemonkey,

If I were Tina and I received this letter I would majorly back off and give space to you and Dave to work out any differences there are between you. With the email Dave sent to Tina, I think he made an effort to show you that he is committed to you. I don't think he was leaving any doors open between him and Tina with that "remains to be seen" bit.

One thing I disagree with is this:

I saw that she called him last week. He said he didn't even see the missed call (he doesn't tend to check that phone often). I suggested he see if she left a message. He got very angry and said "Fine". He didn't put it on speakerphone and said no message was left but that he would call or email her and tell her not to contact him anymore. I said "You'll do it today in front of me?" "I don;t want to do anymore with email today! Ill do it this week or tell me sister to tell her" He hasn't said anything about it.

I realize that you're having a difficult time trusting Dave now but I think this comes accross controlling on your part. That would push me away and distance me further away as I do not like to be controlled.

The fact I checked his phone... or that I asked him to check his messages?

The fact I checked his phone... or that I asked him to check his messages?

Both my love

I think that would make me pull away if someone did that. I know you didn't mean any harm but he may feel or perceive that you're trying to control him.

What should I have done? He lied to me about the situation before... for 5 months!

What was the extent of his 'emotional involvement' with Tina?

Was it innocuous sort of stuff (i.e. friendly/innocent) or was it down right arranging to be together romantically?

Arranging to be toegther romantically and even talk of buying property and starting a life together. He says it was all on her side but even the first day back from the weekend he kept saying how he couldn't wait to return to his home state (after his divorce and kid goes to college).

Also, in her response to his "Dear Jane" she had written: When you asked whether we would consider 'growing old together'.. I don't remember you mentioning you were 'in love' with Lisa but had trepidations...."

He said SHE was the one asking to grow old toegther and she doesn't remember him telling her he was in love with me.

This part....

 

"When I was about to send the last email to you she asked if I could simply have a friendship with you and I said yes. However, will I ever fully gain her trust in me 100%, well that remains to be seen."

Well to me he was telling her that he loves you and this cannot go anymore since he knows your hurt and don't trust him anymore.

He didn't put it on speakerphone and said no message was left but that he would call or email her and tell her not to contact him anymore. I said "You'll do it today in front of me?" "I don;t want to do anymore with email today! Ill do it this week or tell me sister to tell her" He hasn't said anything about it.

Ok so he lied to you. He let you see all his emails and phone records to prove he is not a lying. You keep pushing him to do things in front of you is not exactly fair since he HAS told her he is in love with YOU. How much more should he do to try to calm your nerves? What would it take for you to trust him again? I mean he is letting you see his emails, and phone calls/txts records?

I think you are being a bit too over bearing but, that is how I feel. Then again I know how hard it is to trust someone who betrays you. You have to figure out what will calm your nerves. Then you need to figure out if you could ever trust him again. Then figure out if you can stay with him or move on.

Arranging to be toegther romantically and even talk of buying property and starting a life together. He says it was all on her side but even the first day back from the weekend he kept saying how he couldn't wait to return to his home state (after his divorce and kid goes to college).

 

Also, in her response to his "Dear Jane" she had written: When you asked whether we would consider 'growing old together'.. I don't remember you mentioning you were 'in love' with Lisa but had trepidations...."

 

He said SHE was the one asking to grow old toegther and she doesn't remember him telling her he was in love with me.

Do you know whether it was Tina or Dave that initiated the emailing?

What you wrote in the above doesn't sit well in my gut. I can understand why you're checking his phone etc. The trust that you had with him is gone. This is uncharted territory you're in. In other words, is he worth staying with to see if he gain regain your trust? Or is the interaction that he had with Tina a dealbreaker? I imagine that is a tough decision to make. I don't know if I could trust him again (but that's just me and my issues).

One option would be to take a step back in your relationship with Dave. Go back to the dating stage (date him and date others without being intimate with anyone) and see if he continues to make an honest effort to regain your trust.

I am sure others here will offer their advice and experience with this.

>>>>>>>>>>

He doesn't let me see his emails or phone calls.. actually he usually deletes his call logs before we get toeghter because one morning he found me looking thru it. He said he never would give me his email password (even though I've told him a lot of therapists say to)

The comment: "I don;t want to do anymore with email today!" was in reference to the fact he had already done a lot of business emailing and he hates email in general -- so that was his excuse why he wouldn't email her that day and in front of me -- even though our shrink says he should only contact her when I'm around to witness.

Tina intiated the emails apparently.. although he hates email and only likes phone so I have no idea if he called her beforehand. Here's their 1st email exchange:

>Dave:

>

>Not a moment goes by without you on my mind.... Thank you for making this past week so meaningful to all of us. You are such a magnet of Love!

>

>I am so grateful to have you back in my life, Forever...

>

>BIG hugs and kiss,

>

>Tina

>P.S. See you in

___________________________________________________

Tina:

See, I do respond. Great to hear from you and also receive the other inspiring email. Thanks.

I'm very touched by your comment and I too think of you with fondness and frequency. We have much to talk about in the immediate and near future and I so look forward to it. I feel quite grounded these days after several years of turmoil and look forward to finally turning this large house into a "home" for Nate and myself. It's going to be a financial and logistical challenge, but I always seem to find the resources from deep within, " rob Peter to pay Paul " and in the end pull it off. I've always realized a profit on all my properties.

As I continue to organize my house, career, and life, I suppose in tandem that my heart will guide me regarding my love life for I have to be honest that I kinda' got knocked off balance reconnecting with you. Nothing seemed to have changed but the passing of time for I longed to simply be close to you and share as much as time would realistically allow, and more importantly listen to what you have been doing the past quarter century! We have plenty of time to do all of this and think it out methodically and truthfully. I can assure you that I will not let it get ahead of me, but my heart tells me that there is a wonderful window that life has tossed our way and that I look forward to exploring it without making any premature decisions or hurting anyone in the process. As I mentioned to you I am seeing someone at present but compatibility and planning for the future are at the forefront of my agenda these days and she is 14 years younger and may not be on the same page as we get to really know each other. However, we are very honest with each other and no matter which path it takes we both know that we will mutually feel right about our decision. Enough, I'm rattling on but wanted to share my thoughts right out of the gates. Hey, it's cathartic.

On another note, I went to see with on Saturday. Non-the-less we had a wonderful time and I look forward to getting together with her again. She calls it the way she sees it and is a such a sweetie. It was a long game so got a lot of yapping done!

Sorry for the long winded one this time around, guess I was on a roll and nobody to stop me.

Warmly,

Dave

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Dave:

I was "resigned" to believing that I am to be alone for the rest of my life. I accepted it as Karma, and I am O.K. with that. But, reality hits when one is in need of care esp. in illness. No doubt, this will be more crucial as we continue to age.

Our re-connecting was meant to be. It feels so real and it feels so right. It's as if we were never apart. Time simply stood still for a quarter of a Century!

Yes, I too look so much forward to the future, OUR future. We have the luxury of "time" to work things out carefully. Let's do this mindfully....

You have my word and more importantly, you have my Heart, Dave.

BIG hugs,

Tina

_____________________________________________________________________________

That trust that was GROWING BACK is going away since he told me he was thinking of us taking a break... then finding out she is coming next month to the area (his sisters)... how convenient. And his sister has asked him if HE is going to visit (apparently she hasn't asked about ME going though). I told him if he goes whether or not we're on a break it's over. He agreed in front of my therapist he wont' go and/or if he does only with me. I don't think his sister likes me anymore (if she ever did - I only met her once). I called her a week after finding the emails bcuz I knew she was close to Tina. I asked if she knew what was going on between them. She said she didn't know they had been talking since the wedding and discussing a life toegther. I called her a few months later to ask more questions and she kind of jumped down my throat and said she didnt; feel comfortable talking with me about it behind his back anymore (I had asked her to keep it in confidence and she did the first time for months)

If someone told me they were thinking of taking a break, I would turn them loose (I'd be sad and I'd cry a lot--not in front of them--but by myself or in front of trusted friends and family). If someone told me they wanted a break from me that would honestly decrease my attraction towards them.

If one keeps pulling the other resists; so give him what he wants/needs and turn him loose. Let your analytical/logical side kick in and turn down your emotional side/volume when you do this. Either he'll realize what he lost in you or you'll move on from him and heal.

He said he was thinking about taking a break and it was his sister's comments really. She said to him "You know you've never been without a woman. Maybe you could use some time to yourself" I wouldn't have a problem with it except that Tina is going to be in the area soon and I feel that might be the real reason. And I did let him go with it. I said "OK" and started walking out his house. He yelled after me "So that's it?" and asked me to come back in and talk.

He also said he has some * * * * from his childhood he has to deal with too (sex abuse - I've known about it since I met him and always been there for him about it -- unlike his wife who didn't want to deal with it). I said "I thought you were really upset you're wife wouldn't support you with that stuff?". He said "I know. And I told my sister I have someone who loves me now and would go thru it with me... so I'm torn"

This would be enough for me to seriously consider saying hasta la vista to Dave.

It sounds like Dave has had some uncertainty about you: "As I mentioned to you I am seeing someone at present but compatibility and planning for the future are at the forefront of my agenda these days and she is 14 years younger and may not be on the same page as we get to really know each other. However, we are very honest with each other and no matter which path it takes we both know that we will mutually feel right about our decision"

Has he been honest with you about this uncertainty? It sounds as though he's telling Tina that you had uncertainty about him too. Is that true?

It would be too much for me to swallow honestly. I would cut him loose and let him "free" as he apparently wants to be right now. He doesn't seem to know what he wants and I think that could harm you if you've made yourself ultra-vulnerable to him.

I think it's time for you to start exploring your options and question whether or not Dave is the one for you.

Yes he has been honest about it. When he told me after 4 months of "I love you" "I'm in love with you" "How do you feel about being a stepmother" "this feels right" "feels like home"... and intimating a life together... he then said once he got his divorce going "I'm not sure how I'm going to feel about this relationship once I'm divorced". I broke it off right then and there and didnt; talk to him for a week.

The months following I was just always waiting for the other shoe to drop as his divorce got closer and closer. I got more and more insecure and started leaving him at social events because I felt he was flirting/scoping out other women....

His best friend accussed him of an affiar with his g/f aroudnd month 5 too... that didnt' help. He denied anything and so did she.. but it has never rested well and only added fuel to the fire for me (ie, he's just going to ditch me once he gets divorced)

I mean how can someone say their in love and intimate about a life together but then say once divorced they don't know if their still going to feel those things???? Essentially that was what I was hearing although he always says I took it in a negative light.

Lovemonkey if I were in your shoes I'd be feeling insecure, too. I don't understand his comment about him saying, "I'm not sure how I'm going to feel about this relationship once I'm divorced" I imagine that the meaning behind that comment depends on the context it was said in. It could mean that he may feel stronger about you two or feel uncertain about the future with you. I am inclined to lean towards him feeling uncertain about your future together based on the statements in the email he sent to Tina stating that you were 14 years younger than him and you may not be on the same page etc...

Apparently he went through some uncertainty with you. Uncertainty is not necessarily a bad thing. It is where people take a step back from the relationship and question whether one is right for the other. It usually occurs earlier than 2 years into a relationship; but if the uncertainty stage was skipped over and you guys went straight into exclusivity without questioning the relationship, it could mean that you two are just going through the test of uncertainty now. Only time will tell. It's just that you don't want to leave yourself ultra-vulnerable to Dave only to get emotionally burned. That's why I recommend you taking an emotional step back from this relationship and questioning if Dave is someone who is right for you.

Lovemonkey if I were in your shoes I'd be feeling insecure, too. I don't understand his comment about him saying, "I'm not sure how I'm going to feel about this relationship once I'm divorced" I imagine that the meaning behind that comment depends on the context it was said in.

I wasn't pysched when we started dating because he was still married and *I* was the one with freaked out when he started talking serious. But after 5 months I really started coming around and one day it just kind of popped out of my mouth - I said I wanted to marry him. He got teary-eyed and grabbed me and said "Those are powerful words.. (can't remember)... but note that I'm smiling". A few weeks later I asked him (when he was whining about his current situation) what he envisioned for his life after divorce. He mentioned some logistical stuff and then said having a partner to share it all with. I asked "Do you ever think of me as that person?" That's when he said "Of course I do! It's only natural. But I can't make any promises right now" A week later it came up again -- that's when he said "I, and we, don't know how we're going to feel about this relationship after my divorce" I said "Don't speak for me. I know I'll be relieved and still want to be with you. That's the difference between us"

Shortly after he talked with his best friend's g/f (the one accussed of having the affair) and told her "I don't want to get married again/any time soon.. and my son is going to be back from 90 days of rehab soon." Why didn't he convery these things to me??? I found out thru her when I confrtoned her about the affair issue a few months later.

Also, every time I would threaten to leave the relationship he would say "I want to give this a chance once I'm divorced. Please don't end it prematurely" Now he's almost divorced and has already cheated on me. Honestly.. part of me wants to kill him. I passed up a lot of opportunities to date because of him... and meanwhile he was cheating on me, planning a life with someone else 1/2 the time.