Employers suck, and aren't "fair" at all.

It is clear the corporate world is not for you srvcrow. There are plenty of construction jobs out there that would probably be more suited to your untamed nature. I can't think of many other job types that will afford you the type of lax and unstructured atmosphere you are seeking.

 

But beware, even those jobs have rules!

Become a tradesman they make much more than most of the stuck up corporate snobs. And its great to see them laughing as they can take their own days off as they please while the coporates are stuck in their little cube with no free will of their own. You get to work outside, be dirty, and swear. Skip the coporate crap. Many more opportunities for self employment too.

Corporations = snobbs and elitest working environemnts if ur different or don't brown nose they don't want you. Everyone knows it I don't see the cause for debate.

Charecteristically I've seen the type of people that work for them are the type of people that will readily look down on his fellow man.

untamed nature

 

Interesting choice of words, I think. "Untamed" like a "bad dog" that won't obey your commands, or "untamed" like a bird that's free to soar among the clouds?

If that is what you want to call it then sure.

I like to think of myself as domesticated. I enjoy that. I don't live in the woods and quite frankly am glad I don't. I don't want to soar among the clouds, it is overrated. Plus I am afraid of heights.

I find it ridiculous that some of you label people who don't mind structure and have made it work to their advantage. If you DON"T like it, that is fine. I have no probs with that. But i think that labeling people as you have done all thru this thread is wrong and labeling people and saying you cannot stand the rituals of interviewing or anything else that makes a "team player" (yeah i am sure you HATE that term) does not make you a free spirit.

A free spirit would not waste their time hating conformity. A true free spirit lives their life and does not judge those who like structure.

If someone likes being a tradesman - GO FOR IT~! I think that is fabulous. I would hate it if we didn't have any. I can't fix my own car, nor do I want to. I don't want to paint my house either. I don't want to redo my plumbing. I am glad there are people with a specific trade. They help me keep electricity and running water.

Difference is, I do not spit venom about the people who do those jobs. And before you (roger ramjet) act like these jobs are the best thing since sliced bread THINK AGAIN. I know many people who work construction or other various jobs and they hate the lack of climate control, they hate coming home smelling like sweat, and wish somedays that they enjoyed a desk job.

So don't give me that about tradesman having it so much better than corporate folks. EVERYONE is different and just because one person likes working for a company while another doesn't, does not make either right or wrong. There may be days that I think, ah to have a job with the wind in my face....then i realize, well with that wind comes rain and cold and nah, I really would rather have wind on my face when i go to the beach.

Charecteristically I've seen the type of people that work for them are the type of people that will readily look down on his fellow man.

What a crock of b.s. I think that your own insecurities are making you THINK that this group of people looks down on those who work a trade. BAH! I know as many blue collar people as i do white collar and i RARELY EVER hear the white collar knock the blue. But good God i hear the blue collar knock the "wussy pencil pusher" ALL THE TIME. My ex husband was a mechanic. HIs own insecurities when he was around businessmen made him THINK they looked down on them but they didn't. And his own insecurities would propel him to talk aobut the businessmen all the time - calling them fruits, and nerds, and whatever else he could come up with. It was all only because he was not confident in his OWN career choices or himself that led him to want to criticize others. He felt inadequate around this type of person because he did not do as well in schooling as he would have liked, and felt deepdown they were smarter than he was. When in reality, they weren't. He had an inborn skill that MANY businessmen would have LOVED to have had. I always thought he was a very smart man but he didn't feel good abuot himself.

Stop labeling people. There are good and bad, and slackers and achievers, in EVERY job setting.

Become a tradesman they make much more than most of the stuck up corporate snobs. And its great to see them laughing as they can take their own days off as they please while the coporates are stuck in their little cube with no free will of their own. You get to work outside, be dirty, and swear. Skip the coporate crap. Many more opportunities for self employment too.

 

Corporations = snobbs and elitest working environemnts if ur different or don't brown nose they don't want you. Everyone knows it I don't see the cause for debate.

 

Charecteristically I've seen the type of people that work for them are the type of people that will readily look down on his fellow man.

Actually, I know that it's not true. And even if a plumber, electrician, contractor made more money than me that wouldn't be an evaluation of our relative "success" - I know I can't do the jobs they do - it's not in my skill set - and i don't have the desire just like they don't have the desire to work in an office setting. That works out really well for all of us and I don't look down or up at tradespeople whether or not they make more money and hopefully they don't look down at me as your broad generalizations suggest.

My guess is you wish it were really like you describe so that you could have an excuse for not going for a corporate job, because if you were truly content with what you were doing you wouldn't feel the need to generalize about people who work in corporations. One of those corporate snobs you refer to funded the homeless shelter that houses homeless people and I've spent the last 5 years volunteering there. Without this person funding it and founding it with the money made in corporate america, they wouldn't have shelter and myself and my fellow volunteers wouldn't have a place to go to teach their children how to read and love books. That's only one of many examples. What have you done lately for people in need?

I've met snobby corporate types, snobby plumbers, snobby unemployed people. But I don't generalize because I don't have a bone to pick and even if I did I hope I wouldn't stoop to generalizing rather than facing things head on and realistically and figuring out objectively what my role was in the negative situation and whether it could be fixed.

I posted this before reading jaded star's post - mine I see is repetitive and she said it better, as usual.

What have you done lately for people in need?

Great question Batya. I know that I always try to help others. What have you guys done? Maybe you have done a lot. Maybe you haven't.

But I don't generalize because I don't have a bone to pick

Another great point. I don't have a bone to pick with folks of any profession because I know it takes all kinds of employees in this world for us all to function properly. Just like in the wild, it takes all types of species and plants to keep the world ecologically sound.

I think that the corporate haters might want to go inside of themselves and find out the true reason for their dislike and labeling vs trying to make those who don't have a problem with various professions feel like they are "sell outs".

A common theme on this thread with the real anti establishment folks seems to be that you guys are just bitter about many things in general. I am sure that your life's experiences have led you there, but seriously, taking it out on others and generalizing to this degree is NOT helping your cause.

Batya's spot-on with the observation that snobs can be found anywhere.

Even a homeless beggar can be arrogant.

QUOTE=JadedStar;1619779

I like to think of myself as domesticated.

I like that term, very much. Much more accurate of all of us than is the over-used "civilized." Bravo!

A free spirit would not waste their time hating conformity. A true free spirit lives their life

That's precisely what I've been doing throughout all these years AND all these employers. But the older I get, and the more experience I acquire, I'm learning something: Not everyone "wants" this type of "freedom," this determination to live life on one's own terms to the furthest degree possible. THAT'S been my sin and my crime all along.

There is, of course, an irony (there's ALWAYS an irony), and it's this:

The very people who will have none of this "individual freedom" (the sort you and I are discussing) are the very first in line to pound their chests and sing the praises about how great it is to live in a "free" country. There's a problem there somewhere, don't you think?

Difference is, I do not spit venom about the people who do those jobs.

No, YOU probably do not. But you're being either evasive or naive if you think the "country" generally does NOT "look down" on "blue-collar" types. If not, why so much push for people to run off to college and get a degree to get a "good" job (as in that old public service announcement: To get a good job, get a good education.)? That's a tacit admission that any job NOT requiring a college is NOT a "good" job.

There IS an "elitist" mentality in corporate America. But you are also oh so very correct about how "thin-skinned" blue-collar types about assuming way too much, just as you said.

QUOTE=JadedStar;1619883

I think that the corporate haters might want to go inside of themselves and find out the true reason for their dislike and labeling vs trying to make those who don't have a problem with various professions feel like they are "sell outs".

I've already done it. (It's taken the form a book that's to be published in a few months and I am NOT saying that to "plug" anything--only to establish that I have indeed spent many, many years trying to figure out all the "why's" behind me being who and what I am today.)

So now the question becomes:

Have YOU done the same? Have you really taken the time to think all this through, from beginning to end, to find out why you're more comfortable simply "accepting" the reality of all the things even in the midst of acknowledging that there is much that needs, and probably could be, "fixed"?

(And "accepting" is not meant be a slam of any kind. It's just the best I could think of to say the thing.)

I have reflected internally over my life many times about many things. With all due respect I tend to focus on the positive things about life. It is not that i accept" this reality, it is that i realize this IS the type of work I enjoy, just like some may want to work outdoors.

YOU ARE STILL he11bent on thinking that a person who enjoys this type of work is selling out. You ARE using the term "accepting" in a negative way, for if you were not you would not ask me if i have gone inside of myself to find out why i do it. I am accepting of anyone's profession so long as it is legal. I have no need to be on a crusade asking others why they can accept what they do so easily.

No disrespect intended, but I won't be buying that book. I find your crusade to be very negative.

you see, I got an A for getting along well with others in gradeschool. I am also a very positive person. There is NO WAY on earth I would harp on the negativity about ANYTHING to this extent. I have far better things to do than sit around and btch about what I think is unfair. I go out there in the world and actively WORK to change the things that I can change, and accept the things that I can't and use it to my advantage.

I really do not mean any disrespect in saying this, but I just find you to be a very negative person. And it is a shame because you are an intelligent person, but you are using so much energy (to the point of writing a book) that is all based on negative feelings.

Why not write about something you ENJOY, no matter what that may be? I bet you will feel better internally if you are talking about the things aobut the world that you do like, vs so much time on the things you loathe.

I'm with jadedstar. There are always negatives to any path in life that you have to accept from, hopefully, a cup half full perspective. I do public interest work, and used to do it full time and that had its huge downsides, and I would never work in any environment - public interest, corporate or otherwise that I found unethical or significantly unfair. I've even declined to date people who were involved in technically legal, but unethical, business ventures.

Sure, if you start from a premise of negativity, that people (in the U.S.) don't have choices as to where to work, that working for a corporation is akin to servitude, then obviously from that (erroneous) bias there's nothing left to discuss much less debate.

I just wanted to second Jade's post.

QUOTE=JadedStar;1620106

you are an intelligent person

That's very kind, and I appreciate it, but it's really not true. I'm just a guy who asks lots of questions, that's all.

Why not write about something you ENJOY

Four things in life bring me immense pleasure, satisfaction, and happiness. In descending order:

1. My wife and daughters (my only true reason for living!)

2. Teaching myself to play the piano (my teacher sucks!)

3. Karate

4. Openly challenging and defying "corporate America" and employers.

Let me close this thing with a few defintions that might help put it all into perspective. But first we must agree that companies survive FIRST by adhering to "law," and only then can a consideration of "ethics" enter into the thing. I.E., employers must first not discriminate and so forth. In turn, employees have their own "rules" that MUST be followed: No drugs, drinking, etc. I mean, at it's most basic level, the relationship between employer and employee is one based on "law and order," "rules." That's a given and not open to discussion. Wouldn't you agree?

So, from Bouvier Law Dictionary:

“CORPORATION. An aggregate corporation is an ideal body, created by law, composed of individuals united under a common name, the members of which succeed each other, so that the body continues the same, notwithstanding the changes of the individuals who compose it, which for certain purposes is considered as a natural person.” [emphasis added]

And this:

“PERSON. This word is applied to men, women, and children, who are called natural persons…2. It is also used to denote a corporation which is an artificial person.” [emphasis added]

Now given this reality and truth of the thing, you can see why I mention a “philosophy of convenience.”

On one hand the “person” for whom we work (i.e., the company) wants, expects, and almost demands that we deal with the company as if it was a “real” person, a flesh-and-blood entity with feelings and emotions. What this “legal person” wants from us is our “humanity.”

But when it comes time to choose between money, profits, and your future, your life, your “being” as an employee, a real-life person, this “artificial person” is afforded the luxury of basing all decisions and taking actions considering only what’s in the best interest of “the company.” As I’ve said before, your “humanity” now takes a distant second-place to your role as a mere “resource.”

We are by and work for a legal entity and you’d better believe they live and die by the letter of the law, not any sense of ethics whatsoever!

There’s yet one more definition that fits perfectly here:

“Sociopath: A person whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.”

And that’s what “business” really is. End of discussion.

You must agree that by legal definition companies are “persons,” right?

You must also agree that companies operate with an emphasis on “something” other than “moral responsibility or social conscience,” right?

Then you must conclude that you and I work for sociopaths. (Well, unless you're self-employed, right?)

And no, this isn't suggesing that the people involved--the managers, supervisors, common employees--they are not these things at all! It's simply that this IS the TRUTH about the "concept" of what a "business" really IS! This IS the legal structure and environment in which we work!

One more, also from Bouvier:

Chattel:

1. Law. A movable article of personal property.

2. Any article of tangible property other than land, buildings, and other things annexed to land

3. A slave

Let’s see: I’m “movable.” I'm treated like “personal property” (a “resource”). I’m not “land” or “annexed to land.” So yes, I'm treated like a “slave.”

It's been my obseravation that all real-life people involved do the absolute best they can within this construct. In face, why we're not all stark-raving insane amazes me.

But it's also been my observation and experience that never before in this country's history has "corporate America" gone to the extremes it's now going in showing so little consideration for the "human factor," the "ethics" involved in the relationship between employer and employee.

I sincerely wish you nothing but the best. Hell, I wish that for ALL of us!

No. I like my generalizations because they are for the most part true. Its more of a cultural demeanor that looks down its nose at people and volunteers at homeless shelters (not to say anyone here looks down their nose at people). I don't like people who volunteer for such things and then go talking about it. You'd be surprised of the things I've done to help people and I'll leave it at that.

Corporation creates the homeless.. corporation volunteers for charity.

I hate corporations but I won't judge you for working for one I'll judge you by how you treat and talk to people. When ur a nameless face in amongst the group I will judge you as I judge the group. I will generalize. Sorry thats pretty much how your lot likes to treat those who are not a "cultural fit".

No. I like my generalizations because they are for the most part true. Its more of a cultural demeanor that looks down its nose at people and volunteers at homeless shelters (not to say anyone here looks down their nose at people). I don't like people who volunteer for such things and then go talking about it. You'd be surprised of the things I've done to help people and I'll leave it at that.

 

Corporation creates the homeless.. corporation volunteers for charity.

 

I hate corporations but I won't judge you for working for one I'll judge you by how you treat and talk to people. When ur a nameless face in amongst the group I will judge you as I judge the group. I will generalize. Sorry thats pretty much how your lot likes to treat those who are not a "cultural fit".

And that is extremely sad.

Generalizations are no different from stereotypes and prejudices. It is all in symantics. People have gotten into an AWFUL lot of trouble in our world history by lableling groups as a whole.

Very sad indeed. I find judging every corporate person who is nameless in a group is no different than judging an entire race, or sex.

it is beyond offensive. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

We will agree to disagree srvcrow, because at this point I am starting to think these responses are a preclude to advertising booksales.

Maybe it is sad maybe thats just life but life as it stands has done nothing but prove me right. I can't believe you won't accept that there is corporate culture that exists that is aloof and condescending. Its just there ! plain as the eye can see.

Maybe it is sad maybe thats just life but life as it stands has done nothing but prove me right.

Tell all of the people in the world who have been victims of prejudice that what they suffered "was just life".

Labeling is as horrific as any other form of prejudice and labeling has been the catalyst of hate crimes and other similar deeds. It all BEGINS with labeling. Not saying you would enact violence, but when you label people you help to perpetrate the hatred.

Yet we keep making the same mistakes with labelling over and over again. No one really learns anything from the mistakes of the past. I can't believe this its not about labels omg its about generalizations which can be true. They can be effective and useful. They are not always bad !

Maybe it is sad maybe thats just life but life as it stands has done nothing but prove me right. I can't believe you won't accept that there is corporate culture that exists that is aloof and condescending. Its just there ! plain as the eye can see.

I've worked for 5 companies in the past dozen years - two in a managerial position. I worked for a few other companies before that. I did not find that atmosphere you describe and each of the companies did significant work with and in the community - and I mean not just money but hours (i was involved to a large extent at each one) - there is no way to do that - work in the community - and be aloof and condescending as you say. As I mentioned in a previous post, the homeless shelter i work at was funded by corporate america - obviously not an "aloof and condescending" act.

My guess is you see it that way because perhaps you had a few bad experiences, perhaps you had a prejudicial attitude going in so it was a self fulfilling prophecy fo you or perhaps you are just hostile because of not being able to get a job in a corporation, or one that you believed was not beneath you.

Generalizations are fine as long as you also say immediately that you realize they are broad generalizations and as long as they are not based on race, gender, religion or other groupings of people. I take offense that you would imply that myself and my co-workers are "aloof" or "condescending." I was discriminated against a few times in my career and it was very upsetting but i refused to let those who treated me that way win - and they would have won if I had ended up cynical like you. I didn't.

I will respond to this - my "good fortune" is based partly on luck and timing as most good fortune is but otherwise it's based on hard work, huge investments of time and money and lots of personal sacrifice and sleep deprivation. Was it worth it - yes, mostly and mostly is good enough for me. I've also helped many many people who wanted to enter my industry as a mentor because I love helping people and because I believe in giving back. My belief in giving back is shared by almost everyone I know in the so-called "system."

Absolutely there are those who were treated unfairly by the system - many have recourse to the courts or similar because of discrimnination and then there will always be those who were treated unfairly and have no recourse - and that is true in the private sector, public sector, in any field or industry - it's not fair, but it's the minority. With respect to those people it is all of our obligations to work to change that -- and I do -- but I don't think it is a widespread problem as you describe.

But of course we also differ on the definition of "unfair" - I don't think it's unfair in the least to expect people to work on their resumes, their interview skills, their education, their people skills, if they want to qualify for a job that requires those skills, talents and attributes. If they don't want that kind of job there are many jobs that don't require a higher education or even a traditional resume.

It's a matter of choice and preference, at least in my country. My grandfather chose not to do a job that required higher education, my father did and I did. My sister chose to work in the home for 20 years raising children and now chose to learn a trade. It's inspiring to me, how many choices and opportunities people have here when it comes to jobs, education, careers, etc. No one is forcing you to work for a for-profit corporation where a focus has to be on the bottom line if the corporation is going to stay afloat and provide the products or services it was formed to provide, and if the corporation is going to be able to keep the employees employed.

It's fine if that doesn't work for you - no one is criticizing your choice not to do what is required to qualify for a job like that -it's certainly not for everyone - but I do take issue with your suggestion that it was not a choice of yours but rather based on some negative generalizations about corporate employers and I do take issue with your generalizations about the types of people who work in corporate america.

I've never met anyone who didn't acknowledge that luck and timing played at least a part in their good fortune. For me it was a minority but yes, of course, and it's the same with finding a good relationship too However, with the luck and timing comes the obligation to do something proactive with the luck and timing and not let negativity or self-defeating behaviors get in your own way.

I am sorry you have chosen to have such a negative outlook but it sounds like being steeped in negativity is a more comfortable/familiar way for you to live than taking a risk at trusting people and treating people as individuals and believing - not idealizing - that most people have honorable intentions. I know people like you, I used to try to help people like you but I found it too draining after awhile and shifted focus to those people who were willing to get out of the comfy negative box and jump in feet first again. Obviously there's room for all types in the world and it doesn't sound like you're hurting anyone but possibly hurting yourself.

Based on svrcrows and RogerRamjets generalizations, since you are a corporate "type" you would be one of the same greedy, narrow minded folk that they criticize.

However, anyone with a grain of intelligence can see you are NOTHING like that mold.

So if they are wrong about you, or me, maybe they should realize they may be wrong about A LOT of people.

Something they fail to take into account here is we have not criticized their lack of interest in conforming to the corporate culture. I have said numerous times that it takes ALL KINDS, but i am not going to expect the corporate world to change their standards on interviewing because a few people don't care for it. That is absolutely ridiculous.

AMEN.

Your positive outlook radiates from your posts Batya.

This thread now closed.