Are the majority of gay men really vain?

Prufrock's thread made me really think about this...

Are gay men really vain? Or is that just a really pervasive stereotype? In all the gay shows( * * * * * as Folk and Noah's Ark and Sexin the city), sitcoms(Will and Grace), and various other mediums gay men are always--even if they aren't sex crazed maniacs--portrayed as always wanting perfection when it comes to a mate: washboard abdominals, a square jawline, and basically look like he just jumped out of an underwear ad campaign. Now, most people don't really look like that. However, there seems to be this overwhelming level of who looks the best and who has the biggest___(insert male sexual organ euphamism here that can also be used as a substitute for Rooster). Are we really like that or is it just a stereotype?

Sometimes I find myself being really meticulous about the way I look. I was brought up to look presentable when you leave the house...However, I find myself examining every minor little thing about myself out of fear that some guy might not think I'm good enough...Then again, I could careless about him anyway. However, that thought does go through my head when I'm primping and preppin. I'm even considering wearing make up for men, even though I don't have zits and dark circles around my eyes.

Why is vanity so prevelant in certain circles of the gay community? I try to be very open in who I could possibly be attracted to. There are certain things that I'm just not attracted to(too much body hair and morbid obesity), but they can be changed by simply getting a wax job and running on the treadmill...Otherwise, I am more than willing to give someone a chance as he could be the person for me. I'm not ugly at all(infact, people always say that I have a cute babyface...not bragging), but I know I'm not some huge gym stud either...Although I'm not really attracted to guys that are way too buff.

But why is it that some have this etched in stone criteria about appearance. Like if the slightest hair is out of place then, "Uhm no...get out of my face."

Is this a legitimate concern that I have, or has modern media blown it out of proportion? I know a few gay men like this(ironically, they're all very feminine) and the funny part is none of them are that cute themselves.

I believe gay men are more interested in their overall appearance than straight men, I often think that is partially one reason they'll have a female parade behind them until they come out.

I'm not saying straight men aren't concerned about their looks but gay men seem able to get away with being concerned than straight men. As the previous poster stated, it seems men who care too much about those issues (despite it is hygenic procedure in the end result too) instantly have a huge label stuck to their forehead - Gay. Which of course for your average straight man, that doesn't go over well.

For my group of Gay male friends and acquaintances, their looks are important. They actually are more prone to dress in suit and tie than their straight counterparts, and tend to be more concerned about their hair, shaving, overall maintenance (and now that I bring that up, none of them have facial hair except my best friend whom has a minimal goatee and mustache which he keeps well groomed. Never really thought about that before until this post, maybe it is a factor of some type). I think gay men are just more open about looking good because they're not going to have it considered socially incorrect and a huge No-No because it appears too feminine.

Though I do believe the media does overdo it to an extent. Gay men are concerned about their looks but they're not all raging with vanity issues or narcisstic tendencies. I look at the gay men in movies, news, and in general media sources and rarely have I seen them depict a masculine type gay man and they do exist but really, with the way America has stereotyped gay men it would be about like this - :shocked!: - If they began showing gay men are not all feminine and flannel. Show a masculine business man and tell the public he is gay you'll most likely have a denial response or something of that nature. In general, if it doesn't fit a stereotype the public won't buy it, so why bother trying to sell it?

Anyhow, then again I have a bias towards my very well kept male friends, gay or straight. Men don't have to nit pick at every hair that pops out of place (I don't mean cowlicks, that is one thing, I mean hair popping by the one which no one else can notice no matter how hard we look on someone's head), but certain ones take their fears to an extreme and try to be masculine by having minimal hygiene. I've experienced this in study groups, class and most unfortunately in some cases by those which hit on me here and there; and I wonder how some of these men manage to get by in society with the way they look, smell and what not.

To me, FoxLocke, you sound like you're concerned about your looks which is good, but not to the point of taking our society's stereotypical view. Yours is out of concern of potential mate but not to that type of obsessive behavior that is depicted by media as the All American Gay man.

That is of course, my opinion in a nutshell.

I think your concern is certainly legitimate, as it's a concern of mine (and something I tried to bring up in that threat about what gay guys want but didn't get the message accross as well as you have) as well.

Media stereotypes were a big factor in keeping me in the closet even to myself. For the longest time, I thought that if I wasn't too feminine, wasn't obsessed with dancing and clubbing and the bar scene, wasn't Abercrombie & Fitch-looking enough, then I had no business being a gay guy or considering myself a part of that community. Of course, in hindsight I was dead wrong, but it took me along time to come to this realization. I used to watch QAF all the time and I'll still turn it on once in a while (mostly to drool over the cute guys) but I always found myself identifying with the married couple on that show as opposed to the club goers and the bedroom rotaters. Same with Will & Grace -- "I'm nothing like that so I can't be gay!" I would always say to myself, haha. I still think that most realistic, down-to-earth media representation of gay guys is on Six Feet Under, especially the cop Keith.

But anyway, back to vanity: there's nothing wrong with taking care of yourself and taking the time to look nice and presentable. As you mentioned, you grew up with that ingrained in you, so maybe personal hygeine is more a product of your upbringing than your sexuality. Now that I'm confident, I take much better care of myself and I do, sometimes, pick out nice preppy clothes (that's my style, more or less) but I can still walk around during the summer with shorts and a t-shirt and not feel any less "stylin'". I feel like I would be this way even if I wasn't gay.

"Why is vanity so prevelant in certain circles of the gay community? I try to be very open in who I could possibly be attracted to. There are certain things that I'm just not attracted to(too much body hair and morbid obesity), but they can be changed by simply getting a wax job and running on the treadmill...Otherwise, I am more than willing to give someone a chance as he could be the person for me. I'm not ugly at all(infact, people always say that I have a cute babyface...not bragging), but I know I'm not some huge gym stud either...Although I'm not really attracted to guys that are way too buff."

Guys like us, who broaden our horizons and give almost any guy a chance as long as his personality is compatible, are certainly in the minority. In fact, I would argue that anyone in the 13-30 range who thinks like that, regardless of sexuality, is a minority in a sense. Our culture puts too much of a premium on physical perfection -- I'm not talking about looking cute or attractive or handsome, I'm talking about the kind of bodies you see in movies and on billboards, the kind that lead to eating disorders and other horrible issues -- and reading through your post makes me realize how proud I am (and you should be too) that I'm willing to look outside the lines when it comes to finding someone to spend time with in a relationship, that at the end of the day it's better to pass over perfection for someone reliable and honest and decent and kind and ___________ [fill in the blank with whatever adjective attracts you].

Perfect bodies are nice to look at in the context of pornography and private fantasy, but I think realistically it's important for gay guys to lower their expectations, at least to the point where they're not basing their desires on the hot bodies on QAF or America's Top Male Model or whatever. At least, I feel that's the only way someone like me, who falls into the cute/handsome category but by no means the ultra-hot-stud category, is ever going to have a chance in this seemingly cut-throat world of gay dating.

I wonder, then, if this vanity is so seemingly widespread because almost every gay guy has some insecurities about the way he looks, the way he's presenting himself to a potential boyfriend/husband. It only looks like vanity when you take it on a mass scale -- when you bring it down to the individual case, though, I think most gay guys aren't vain so much as they are terrified of not looking their best all the time because that's what they think (and what culture has trained them to think) is what other gay guys are looking for.

I still think that most realistic, down-to-earth media representation of gay guys is on Six Feet Under, especially the cop Keith.

***sigh*** How do I love Keith let me count the ways...lol. Then again I could be here all night. He was the primary reason I watched Six Feet Under. That is a gorgeous man...***sigh***

Now, in regards to the topic. I think, partially, since men are very visual that this could be a reason why as well.

The onething that I envy about straight people(and lesbians)is that women have such a broad scope of what they percieve as beautiful. Infact, it doesn't even have to be about outward appearance.

I've seen women with men that have made me think, "My god, what do their children look like?" But in the end all that matters is that they are compatible on every level...

Sure, biology--I feel--does play some role...However, I think we as human beings are higher than that to some degree. That is why I am more than willing to give any guy a chance, provided he practice good hygeine and treats me well.

That chiseled model look has never been that attractive to me anyway. I think a natural athletic body is beautiful, but when you get to have eating disorders( or, as I call it, Manorexia)just to achieve some ideal then that just shows insecurity.

The media just shows one side to everything & it's not healthy for us viewers. For instance, They always have a certain look for models that's shown more & lots of people idolize that & go to desperate measures to look like what they see on tv. The problem is that the media don't go out their way to show "variety" in different things. Another, all gay men are portrayed as very weak & femenine individual. I mean there is such a thing as masculine gay males! I'm living proof lol.

I too obsess with the way I look I really need to stop it also. I guess it has to deal with self-esteem issues. Somedays I think I am cute, other days I don't think I'm cute at all. That's why I don't really like meeting guys off of the internet, because my profile picture may look cute, but I may not look as cute as in real life or etc etc.Then I'm afraid they may not like me or they may think I'm lame or not cute enough.. etc etc.On another issue, I'm a black african american male who's dark-skinned. I'm about a dark brown tone or whatever but I've always hear people that want someone who's light, which is really ignorant to me.It made me feel worthless because if your not light-skinned,your not sexy or appealing. You have to look like Boris Kodjoe or Beyonce Knowles in order to be sexy. That really affected my self esteem.For a long time, I wanted to be light skinned as crazy as it sounds. I really have issues to work out. I get told I am handsome alot.. I've been hit on by both women & men lol ( Not trying to brag or anything..) but even in the midst of all that, I just don't feel attractive & I wonder why has it been such a big deal for me.

I also try not to be picky about who I am attracted to. If you have a good heart & personality, I'll fall for you.It don't matter if your black,white... you know whatever. I've been attracted to all kinds of people.

My response to your question is that i don't believe many gay men are actually all that vain, underneath it all, but rather they are insecure. I don't know where this insecurity comes from, but i get the distinct feeling it is comes from being gay mixed with a bit of unacceptance. As a result of this unacceptance, many gay men become insecure and compensate for that insecurity by creating a super-image of perfection, fastidiousness, and outer-directed beauty.

But it all comes down to those stereotypes we were talking about before and why many gay men subscribe to them.

Perhaps you would like to read a book called Life Outside: The Signorile Report on Gay Men: Sex, Drugs, Muscles, and the Passages of Life. It is a great read and i would recommend it to anyone. It explores the issues of gay men's sexuality and ideas of masculinity.

I too obsess with the way I look I really need to stop it also. I guess it has to deal with self-esteem issues. Somedays I think I am cute, other days I don't think I'm cute at all. That's why I don't really like meeting guys off of the internet, because my profile picture may look cute, but I may not look as cute as in real life or etc etc.Then I'm afraid they may not like me or they may think I'm lame or not cute enough.. etc etc.

I'll give you a little hint. Underplay yourself on your internet profile a bit and then you will exceed expectations when you actually meet up with these people. When expectations are exceeded, the response is "delight" and it will work in your favour =D>.

The media does tend to make gay men more vain than straight men as (like Jinx said) that is the stereotypical view of most gay men in society, no matter what country you live in.

I know a lot of gay men and the majority of them act exactly the same as the men in TV shows like QAF, Will and Grace, etc etc. Although some men that I know don't act at all like them. They're farmers, business men, some are even truckies. It's all about what the public sees as a true portrayal of gay men, and unfortunately that portrayal is feminine, vain and bed-hoppers. It's a shame really that the world has such derogative views of gay men.

I think that your concerns are definitely justified FoxLocke, as just as most users have demonstrated "***sigh*** How do I love Keith let me count the ways...lol. Then again I could be here all night. He was the primary reason I watched Six Feet Under. That is a gorgeous man...***sigh***"... what percentage of the public drools over gay men that aren't like the ones seen on the silver screen?

I don't know if the majority is, but I am VERY critical about my appearance. I take a bath every morning at 5:30 (for about 30-45 minutes), make sure I have a nice matching/looking good shirt/pants, face cream, and my hair--OMG, my hair! I obsess over it too much, I try to perfect it--no creases, make sure its formed in the right spot and not messy..it's really straightly perfected =P

I don't know if you call that vain or not. It's not like I bring it up all the time with anyone..but this feels normal to be doing, and I'm used to doing it, too.

I also sometimes think I'm not cute on some days and cute on some days because sometimes my lips may seem a bit bigger (I love to have small, perfectly formed lips--not freaky small) because of the tooth paste, heh..and sometimes my face isn't shining white, like a dark-pale-tan color which looks nice. Then when I see just a couple hairs above my mouth and they are a bit visible to other people, I feel bad because I don't think I look good with a moustache. I sweat sometimes, and then it makes my face a little greasy (face cream is the solution!...). If I ever see a small pimple that may come up, I put pimple/acne remover on it...and I have no pimples, lol.

So yeah, I'm very critical..and I always check out other guys hair. If it's not like taken care of pretty well, then my interest sort of drops..

I dunno if the majority are vain, but there is a stereotype of vanity in the community no doubt about that. My thought has always been that it's because men are visual. And gay men are trying to attract other visually-stimulated men ... men who are visually stimulated by very good looking men just as straight men are visually stimulated by very good looking women. So my thought has always been that this is the genesis of that particular trend in certain parts of the gay community: the fact that men (gay and straight) tend to be rather visually-stimulated in terms of initial physical attraction.

That's an interesting point. Does that mean they're shallow?

Sometimes i think that homosexuality is a form of narcissism.

That's an interesting point. Does that mean they're shallow?

 

Sometimes i think that homosexuality is a form of narcissism.

That wasn't my point at all. I think men are visually attracted, whether straight or gay. It isn't narcissistic to try to make yourself attractive to someone who is visually attracted.

The first bit was a joke (tongue in cheek), that is what i was driving at. Nicely put. You never know, maybe it's true, that would explain why so many gay people, both men and women, but mainly men, chase after what they perceive to be the ideal image

I guess the reason i originally thought that is that i know a lot of guys who have these 'best friend' figures who would be perfect for them, but they always end up chasing the unattainable.

Hmmm ... well, it seems a stretch to say that because someone is attracted to someone of the same sex, it's a case of going after an image of themselves. It is, after all, not themselves to whom they are attracted. Rather, it's a question of whom that person finds attractive: straight men find hot women attractive, and gay men find hot men attractive.

I honestly think that gay men are like straight men in that they are very visually driven and tend to be attracted to very attractive people ... the difference is in the target of their attraction. Straight men also chase after the ideal female image and will chase the unattainable to a certain degree in favor of the "girl next door" who would be perfect for them. I think this is just what happens with a lot of men, straight and gay, and I don't think its manifestation in gay men is reflective of an underlying narcissism.

I don't think homosexuality is a form of narcissism. Why would people be born, inherently, narcissistic?

But I do agree that we as men, in general, are very visually stimulated.

However, I do try and recognize that and counter it.

Furthermore, what is hot to some might not be hot to others. It all depends upon the individual.

And Erk, you are definitely not the only one. At first I thought my little rituals were kind of weird...lol. But I do care about how I present myself to the public. And I don't know if all gay men have facial hair or not...But I find myself not liking to wear facial hair. I have a thin slit of a mustache and that's about it, lol.

I agree with this also. I think I've mentioned it before but as a teen I dealt with a raging case of BDD(Body Dysmorphic Disorder)wherein which my appearance became an obsession. However, through counseling I was able to overcome but inspite of that I still find myself obsessing with my appearance on occasion. Sometimes I'll leave the house thinking I look really good and other days I don't want to leave because, as Kidd put it, "I'm not feeling particularly cute." But I think everyone has those though.

And I get so nervous about posting pics. Usually, when I take pictures, it's all on the fly. I'm usually giving a goofy smile or looking like a dear in headlights...lol. I have some really good ones, but I'm always scared I won't live up to them in person...Sometimes the camera can really flatter you as opposed to making you look bad.

Well, I guess I must be the exception to the rule. I've never been that concerned about my appearance until very recently. Growing up my Mom always had to nag me to put on a belt or tie or comb my hair or whatever. My straight brother was much more meticulous about his appearance and clothes. Recently, I've started to care more about my clothes and hair, especially if I'm going to be in the presense of someone I like, but it's something I don't obsess over. Every now and then I obsess over my hair but it makes me feel insecure when I do that so I just quit, just comb it a little and decide to leave it in peace.

Facial hair- I come from a long line of men with magnificent beards, but have not been able to grow one myself, much to my consternation. My brother also has great facial hair. Of the few gay people I know, I know a couple with full beards and one with a huge mustache, so I don't think it's genetic. Maybe, I don't know. I really love a good beard, two of my favorite straight crushes had great beards.

"I too obsess with the way I look I really need to stop it also. I guess it has to deal with self-esteem issues. Somedays I think I am cute, other days I don't think I'm cute at all. That's why I don't really like meeting guys off of the internet, because my profile picture may look cute, but I may not look as cute as in real life or etc etc.Then I'm afraid they may not like me or they may think I'm lame or not cute enough.. etc etc"

"And I get so nervous about posting pics. Usually, when I take pictures, it's all on the fly. I'm usually giving a goofy smile or looking like a dear in headlights...lol. I have some really good ones, but I'm always scared I won't live up to them in person...Sometimes the camera can really flatter you as opposed to making you look bad."

I'm with you on this one -- I was taking pictures of myself the other day for this yahoo personals add I'm working on and I found myself being so concerned with every little detail. I was obsessed with finding the right picture and kept taking picture after picture in order to hopefully land the right one with the right angle, that highlighted my eyes and smile -- even my sister, who had agreed to help me take some pictures, got so fed up with me that I had to end up taking the pictures by myself in the mirror, lol! I guess I worry because this photograph is going to be the first visual impression that another guy has of me -- and if I don't pull off the right look, the right smile, everything else will go bust. And then I start thinking that I look much better in person than I do in a picture because my face actually moves when I talk, it just doesn't stand still in this frozen pose -- so I feel sometimes like the camera does a worse job of capturing my physical features than a better one, if that makes any sense. There is so much unspoken pressure put on the profile picture that it's enough sometimes to disillusion one from making a profile at all.

I've also had a lot of issues with self-esteem, and it's only recently that I started taking better care of myself and training myself to believe that I am cute and attractive and do have a lot to offer someone just as much visually as I do emotionally/personality-wise. And there are still some days when I think what's the use, no one's going to find me attractive, etc. etc. But there are other days when I look in the mirror, I'm well-dressed and smiling and I think: dang it! I'd go out with me if I saw someone looking like that, LOL!

But I thought of this particular thread this morning -- I was getting ready to head out to meet an old friend for lunch (a girl, no less) and I found myself looking in the mirror to make sure I looked good, turning to the side and back to make sure everything was okay, shaving (I don't like too much facial hair on myself -- maybe some nice stubble but I don't like the way I look with anything more than that), making sure my jeans and sweater fit right. Which is odd because I never used to do this but only started to because I take much better care of myself and I have much more concern in how I look and present myself? Is this part of my homosexuality? I'm not sure -- I feel that even if I were straight, I would be just as concerned with the way I look.

When I see a homosexual male couple, usually only one is very fastidious about their appearance. Could it be that one takes on the female role?

That's interesting. Either that, or they end up looking exactly like each other. In those cases i say to myself, "twin boyfriends"! Lol

Well, I guess I must be the exception to the rule. I've never been that concerned about my appearance until very recently. Recently, I've started to care more about my clothes and hair, especially if I'm going to be in the presense of someone I like, but it's something I don't obsess over.

A small amount of concern over your self-image is healthy and suggests a healthy amount of self-respect. However, attention to the point of obsession over how one looks suggests to me a rejection of the self, or some sort of issue with self-esteem.

I think it becomes unhealthy when you frantically book yourself in to the teeth whitening salon, the gym, the tanning studio, the hairdresser, and the beauty therapist for a wax, all in the one day! Lol. Some guys even get chest implants. I guess i just don't find those kind of manufactured images attractive If you have to pay for it, you are not hot!

When I see a homosexual male couple, usually only one is very fastidious about their appearance. Could it be that one takes on the female role?

"Female role" in what sense?

In my experience, one usually takes on more of the qualities and roles that our society deems feminine.

Okay, but I've also known quite a few gay couples where both partners were what you might call "fastiduous", so I guess that's why I was asking.

Rather, it's a question of whom that person finds attractive: straight men find hot women attractive, and gay men find hot men attractive.

What happens when they get too old to be 'hot' and what happens when you get too old to attract 'hot' men?

What happens when they get too old to be 'hot' and what happens when you get too old to attract 'hot' men?

This is exactly why I think relationships and interpersonal connection are so much more important than a purely physical relationship. Hookup culture, or a relationship established on hot bodies and hot sex, though it's certainly an appetizing idea, just doesn't have enough strength to cut it once you start getting older. Our bodies are on the decline from the day we're born and as you get older and you're in a relationship with someone, you want something that will keep the two of you together into your fifties and sixties and seventies and I don't think that something can be found in the realm of the physical and sexual. Granted, sex is an important part of any healthy relationship but if there's nothing else there -- no emotional connection, no romantic love to speak of -- then 9 times out of 10 the relationship is doomed to failure once one or both of the partners start to exhibit the "ravages of time."

Which is why I think these questions of superficiality and vanity are so important to talk about, because if this kind of behavior is so entrenched in someone's psyche that he can't let go of it when he's found something good, something worth holding onto -- that's when it really starts to become problematic.

So the answer to your question, mgirl, is this: they become Dirty Old Men.

So the answer to your question, mgirl, is this: they become Dirty Old Men.

This is exactly what i was driving at!

A friend and i were having this conversation a few weeks ago and we agreed that if you are still looking for a "hook-up" over the age of 35, then it becomes highly unattractive!

I would hate to be looking at people younger than me when i get older. I want to be happy and content with the one that i love.

Also, i have noticed it is the less wealthy of the "dirty old man" ilk that seem to wear the banner of "dirty old man". The wealthier of the above become "sugar daddies". Lol.

Agreed that this topic is important to talk about. If you want to know more, read Life Outside by Michaelangelo Signorelli. It's great.