Ask the Expert: Dating - "The Dating Cure"

Rhonda Findling is our guest expert in this discussion and the subject we will discuss and focus on is dating and what new and notable Rhonda's new book "The Dating Cure" offers on the subject.

Some of the topics Rhonda discusses in "The Dating Cure" are:

- holding out for chemistry vrs dating strictly to get married

- the biological reasons women are attracted to bad boys

- improving your assessment skills of men you are dating

- creating romantic opportunities

- how to know whether the guy you are dating and you are heading towards a committed relationship

- dating etiquette

About Rhonda Findling

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Rhonda Findling is a psychotherapist and author of the acclaimed

"Don't Call That Man! A Survival Guide To Letting Go", "The Commitment Cure, What To Do When You Fall For An Ambivalent Man" and "The Dating Cure".

Rhonda has appeared as a relationship expert on several national talk shows including Ricki Lake, Geraldo, Maury Povitch, Eye Witness News, Good Day New York, Carnie, Ilyana, Tempest and Judith Regan Tonight. She has appeared on radio shows nationwide. She has led workshops and seminars throughout New York and L.A. including the Learning Annex, the 92nd St. Y and Hazelden.

Rhonda has been featured in the New York Post, Los Angeles Times, Newsday, Rocky Mountain News, Cosmopolitan magazines, Latina Magazine and Today's Black Woman. Her articles have appeared in Complete Woman Magazine and Essense.

Rhonda has been in private practice in Forest Hills and Manhattan for the past 12 years. She was a psychotherapist on the staff of Post Graduate Center for Mental Health in New York for 13 years. Rhonda also worked as a psychologist for the State of New York for three years. She was a counselor for Victims Information Bureau where she counseled victims of rape, sexual assault, and spouse abuse. She taught psychology and counseling classes at Marymount College in New York City. Rhonda has a Masters Degree in clinical psychology and is certified as a rehabilitation counselor.

The discussion will be open August 15-16 and feel free to post your questions for Rhonda now.

Hi. Thanks for this chance to talk about dating! I'd like to dialog about first impressions.

If you get a bad first impression of someone, how do you decide whether to go ahead anyway and get to know him ... or trust your 'gut instinct' about the person?

For example, a guy approached me recently and started grilling me (that's what it felt like!) on what work I do, where I live, where I went to school etc. It felt very uncomfortable, and it ended quickly.

Then he managed to follow up with me - even though I hadn't given him my contact info. But he apparently knows an acquaintance of mine. Ignored the e-mails.

To me, this approach feels pushy. But some of my friends say I shouldn't be so closed. Are there any general principles to follow regarding first impressions? I do want to date and get married - to the right guy, that is!

Rhonda,

When you ask a woman what she looks for in a man, a common response is, "intelligent, outgoing, a good sense of humor, and easy-going." What they end up with is often much different though, which leads me to believe they really do not have control over what they choose. Instead, someone who attracts them enacts (either knowingly or unknowingly) some laws based on human nature to attract them such as smiling, talking about her interests, and using the right body language while maintaining independence and being somewhat aloof. What is your take on this?

Dear Rhonda

This is a bit of a long post - so I hope you won't feel intimidated. I have come accross a girl at Uni who I liked as a friend at first, but began to get deep feelings for over the past year because I found her greatly attractive - on the outside and as a person on the inside. Not only do I like her, but she gets on very well with me.

Now here's the problem: She had one bf sometime ago. But, she showed many signs of her liking me back (like sitting next to me in class, 'inviting' me to come over to a Ball - even though she'd be in HIS company, accepting an invitation to have a coffee with me then giving a big smile in my direction at next class). Other big examples include asking me who's my fav lady at Uni - and I said it was her (she said she was flattered), and giving me a big cuddle (about 10 seconds) after telling her how beautiful she is. We had our 1st coffee late last yr, everything went great but asked if we're friends. But, she told me that we could have coffee again.

Everytime we met after that, she'd do different things like attentive listening, telling me more about herself, her family and her feelings on different things, smiling often, playing with her earring at one point, leaning forward towards me at another meeting, asking me more about myself and often kissing me goodbye on the cheek. At one time, she even asked if I had a gf.

Then, at another meeting, she told me she dumped her bf - and is going out with another guy! She did things at him like slightly brushing his hair and sitting next to him. But, she said she and I could meet up again. She also kissed me twice on the cheek - one for saying goodbye and another for getting her some Easter chocolates (both in front of him).

Sometime after that, at another coffee, I told her I was hanging out with my sister - and chatted with her friends (deep down inside, it was really to help me get over the girl's sudden change of heart and her not choosing me back then). The girl then put on a big, nervous grin and giggled for one minute and fidgetted with her mobile and then asked if we could meet up again in 2 weeks.

We met up for coffee 2 more times - with both times her acting friendly and/or fond - on one occasion, she told her bf "I love u", but also after that blew cigarette smoke around me and blew the final small puff at me, gently touched my shoulder and later on walked with me to my car's parking building. She just invited me to her 21st, so I am thinking of telling her how I feel about her as a friend then, probably, through a letter. Only with her knowing about it, of course, because I know THAT OTHER GUY would be there too WITH HER.

So, now. I might like to ask some simple Qs:

1. Considering how the girl acted above, does she probably like me back?

2. Is it normal for a woman (even one who is not b*!&hy) to show

feelings for two guys at the same time - and why? And is that

considered s*!#ty?

3. Would she like me or the second bf more, even though she isn't going

out with me?

4. Is what I'm about to do a good thing to clear up on how she really feels

about me?

5. If she doesn't want to go out with me now, does this necessarily mean

that I'm not attractive enough for her!?

Hi Rhonda,

First off, thanks for stopping by the site and advising, I have a few topics I have questions about:

1. For me, and I'm sure others as well, the phone has always been an issue. With social calls in general i always feel like I'm somehow missing the socvial protocols dealing with phone conversation, like I missed the "calling etiquette" day of school or something. While for the mosty part I have calling friends down to a manageable level of anxiety, I still have issues when it comes to calling girls I'm interested in, and usually wind up second guessing myself and obsessing over minute little details in the time up to making a call. First, there's the infamous age old question of how long to wait after getting a number or going on a date. I realize there's no concrete answer to this question, so I try to take it on a case by case basis. My big problem comes once i've decided on a day to call, the entire time from when I pick up the phone to when i actually dial the number (which for me can be anywhere from several minutes to believe it or not over an hour), i sit arguing with myself about every aspect of the call, from what i'm going to say, to how the timing of my call will be percieved. By that last point I mean things ranging from "if I call her on a saturday night, will i make a bad impression by showing that i'm at home calling her rather than out with friends doing traditional saturday night activities" to "will the fact that I'm calling at 8pm on the hour reflect that I'm so nervous about this i had to plan it out." I realize that spounds rediculous, and that is what really frustrates me, that out of the context of making a call i realize that many of my anxieties are absurd, however once I get into that kind of situation, its like a switch gets flipped and i go into 'anxiety mode." I realize this may have gotten a little off topic, but do you have any advice on handling this kind of anxiety?

2. On a similar note to topic 1, what is the best course ofg action when you make a call and wind up leaving a message on that persions machine/voicemail. How long should one wait if one does not receive a call back, and what action should be taken?

3. On a separate topic, how forward should a guy be on a first date. For example: I recently had a first date with a girl I met through an online dating site, I felt the date went quite well, as we seemed to hit it off and have a good deal in common in terms of both interests and personality. I feel I may have ruined thing however, because when we parted ways at the end of the date, she shook my hand, and then I responded by giving her a hug, which though she responded seemed to catch her off guard. Was i too forward in this situation, thus appearing over eager and shooting myself in the foot? I ask, because relating to the previous topics, I called her a few days later and have yet to hear back after over a week.

4. Finally, realting to the last topic, what is your opinion of online dating sites as a method of social interaction? While I have managed to get girl's numbers in person, I find that for me online meeting provides a much less anxiety provoking situation. Is this simply taking advantage of an easier method of communication in the short term, or is it a disadvantage in the long term, as it may be further degrading what meager social skills i posess in face to face meeting?

Sorry thats kind of alot, and I'm really not sure how much of it is realavent to your expertise, but any opinions or advice you have on these topics would be appreciated.

Thank you,

mtastic

Rhonda will most probably start posting the answers tonight, tomorrow.

Meanwhile for members in France and UK:

Rhonda will be doing "The Dating Cure" book signing in Leeds, England and Paris, France

Borders

September 1, 2005

Thursday 7 p.m.

Leeds, (Briggate)

England

Shakespeare & Co.

August 29, 2005

Monday 7 p.m.

Paris, France

Where can an honest, shy, polite, gentleman meet a woman that would be seeking such a man?

I always tend to find the worst women and have met them all through out. Maybe there is a spot I am overlooking.

Would you suggest any good internet sites for matching people?

How can I demostrate that I am infact a very romantic / sensual person without it rubbing off in the wrong way.

Katie Kool,

He does sound aggressive. If you find other qualities you're attracted to in him (other aspects of his personality etc.) then I think it's ok to give him more of a chance. But, if you're just not attracted to him and you don't like his aggressiveness, then forget him.

Chai714,

I think every man is unique in what attracts them to women. I just don't believe in generalizations when it comes to what makes a man or woman attracted. Many factors play into attraction. For instance, beauty helps women attract men, but I see countless average looking women who are married. Some men like women who idealize them and look up to them. Some men like women who are cold and unavailable because their mother's were cold and unavailable and this is what they're use to. It feels comfortable for them. A lot of it depends on how they were treated as children and what was imprinted into their minds. You can read more about this in my book "The Dating Cure".

Mtastic,

Never call a woman on a Saturday night to ask her out on a date. It's just not cool. Call her on Tuesday or Wed nights around 8 p.m. to ask her for Saturday night. That's what normal respectful men who are not players do. (A movie and a drink or dessert afterwards is a great date).

If you leave a voicemail message give her 5 days to call you back. If she doesn't call you back she's not interested in you - thats the kiss off. If you

are absolutely crazy about her you can try calling her one more time just in case she didn't get the message but generally I'd suggest not calling her again. Women who are interested call back, they don't play hard to get.

I don't think you were too forward by hugging her. She didn't call you back because she's not interested - despite how enthusiastic she acted on the date.

If you need more help I do consultations with men on dating. You can find how to contact me on my official web site, and click on consultations at link removed .

Ajax Ajax,

In my book "The Commitment Cure" I spend a chapter on men who play "Parlor Games". The same applies to women who play "Parlour Games" as well.

This woman is definitely acting seductive to you for either of 2 reasons. She wants to hook up with you and is waiting for you to be more aggressive and make a move, or she just enjoys teasing you (frustrating, you) thus "Parlour Games".

You can read more about it on my book but if you want to stop the games, either take a chance and tell her you want to date her (even though she's seeing someone else) and see what she does; or stop hanging out with her completely, because all she is, is frustration. She gets you all excited and then nothing. She's all talk and no action.

If you do put it out there and she says she'd like to date you but is with someone else tell her to contact you when and if she breaks up with him. Until then, I strongly suggest to stop participating in her parlour games.

Guilty as charged,

All I can say is any woman who only gets attracted to men who show little interest in them(the man being aloof, disinterested, etc.) needs to go into therapy. The three sites you just described sound very mysogenistic. What's mysogeny? Hatred of women! The advice the men that run those sites that you quoted sounds demeaning and contemptous of woman and doesn't see the woman as a whole human being but merely an unavailable, cold, depriving, narcissistic, cartoon character. I suggest not even considering taking advice from a man's site unless the person giving the advice is a clinician and has a graduate degree in psychology or social work from a viable, accredited school.

Anybody can start a site. These men could possibly have severe intimacy issues with women and don't even have the capacity for a relationship or marriage. They aren't clinicians and have no training. Many of them are publishing their own books, and are using their sites and information to hawk books (that no publishing house appears to be interested in publishing) to men who are feeling particularly lonely and desperate. I just don't think this is the answer. My suggestion is to be careful who you listen to. For your own knowledge and insight, interview some men who are family men with good marriages and see if these men fit the description of the men you described from these sites as having success with women.

Hi Rhonda,

I haven't had a girlfriend in a LONG time. I go on date once every blue moon but the ones I like don't like me back and the ones that like me I'm not happy with.

On occasion I find someone I like that actually likes me back she loses interest easily. I can't figure out what's wrong with me. I'm easy going, never offensive, clean, and polite. Could there be something off with my mannerisms that's subconsciously turning women away? Do I have bad pheromones? I can be a little shy but I do talk on dates.

Its come to the point that I believe there's something about me that women are subconscously lose passion or become unattractive to.

Help!

Rhonda what precisely do you mean by not taking advice from a man's site unless he has an advanced degree in psychology?

(I always found the lack of female counterpart for the word misogyny sightly sexist).

Everything that's available in an a school you can find in books, documents, and libraries.

Trial and error or experiences close to home can make some of the greatest teachers. Not to mention we aren't talking about a topic as concrete as science after all. Most of psychology, esp where relationships are concerned, seem's to be about hypothesis and what I would call 'light' theory (as opposed to more definate theory such as evolution).

Many of the mental health professonials I am familair with are even worse in picking and wooing mates and communicating healthily than us

'normal people'.

(I grew up around psychiatrists and other mental health professionals and love studying their backgrounds).

I would think personal experience, familairity with the subject, inate observational and extrapolation skills, an open mind -- sound reasoning and results is more important.

For example; I would be even less inclined to consider a PHD's advice than I would a masters degree if the latter cites their examples, sources, and articulates their position more logically despite the former's having much more schooling.

Of course having a PHD is an advantage, but certainly not a prequisite to knowledge, esp in psychology.

That being said, you don't think emotional unavailability is a strong point? What about those who are available and then less available?

I have observed the positive results myself from a variety of social/economic backgrounds and diff types of people.

Of course part of it is the more dettatched you are the less you are likely to fear rejections (and dating is in part a numbers game). However large quantities of women often see men who are emotionally detattched in the beginning as a challenge. And that doesn't of course mean to anybody who might agree with me, that having a personality like cardboard is effective. That isn't what I am insinuating. You need charm too.

Finally, I know there is a great deal of politically correctness attached to the fields of psychology but when talking about good dating careful generalities are almost impossible not to get away with.

We should also all probably remember that if you want to be successful in a relationship you probably wont get there unscathed.

About men & women who have issues with women giving advice:

I am inclined to think most (hetro) people at one point in time will have distrust and even resentment torwards the opposite sex whenever they have had bad experiences.

The brain seems to have some tendency to look for patterns whenever we are let down.

You can look past a persons resentments (such as with men's sites who have issues with women) and still see the quality of their arguments, experiences, and advice, and dissect the soundness of their reasoning from the more base prejuduices. Their issues doesn't neccesarily mean they are wrong with everything or even most of what they say.

If you ask a happily married man (who got lucky) he is prone to speak with another type of prejudice -- the euphoria and good luck of his present circumstances.

If something is said with a degree of anger it can still merrit truth.

We often learn more from our failures than our triumphs.

And I wouldn't knock somebody just cuz of their lack of advanced degree. I personally have had much more success taking advice from a few smart normal people than I have mental health professionals (not lying either).

cheers

Napoleon please note that the subject of discussion is not expert advice vs. web advice so let's stay on topic.

Also note that yep there are lots of sites out there not only I too would not recommend asking men's advice from I would say asking any advice is not a good idea at all. "little knowledge is dangerous" and we have to be careful where we go for advice.

Rhonda - what's it with the fact that girls seem to be attracted to "jerks" (used that due I didn't know better word) instead of "nice guys" (again, I apologize for my terminology). If you start creating statistics from people posting to these boards (or who go to my school for example), you find that to be quite right.

Also, as was mentioned earlier here, girls say they want a nice, intelligent guy etc. but in reality they don't do that. They go for these jerks. Also the feeling girls have is described as "gut level attraction" and they feel that to really masculine guys.

This stuff is mostly taken from sites and advice you would probably call "mysogenic", but I'd really want your input, because as far as I know, that also works. It just looks so much like it, at least with people in my age (high school - college).

So I'm really curious what's with the fact that this works, since judging your previous posts, you think it's nonesense (or is in no way common).'

and Edit, let me stress that this is in no way pro advice vs. web advice, more like pro advice vs. things I can see pretty much anywhere I go.

Rhonda:

I just wanted to say that a few weeks ago, I read your book. I read only a few chapters near the shelf where I discovered it. Next thing I knew, I had the book purchased and completely read that afternoon. It was very helpful because I have certainly made all the mistakes and looked desperate. Your book helped me deal with at situation I had recently where I was falling for the guy and he ended it. We dated a couple of years ago, it ended and remained friends. He initiated a "reunion" and this happened for a couple of months until I realized I was getting attached. He ended it once again, letting me know that he just didn't feel connected to me. Reading your book helped me remain "cool" through it all. He and I remained friends and because I didn't try to cling to him or do any acts of desperation (although I was really upset), he feels comfortable with me.

We both are in the same sport and encounter each other often. I know he's still attracted to me, it's obvious. However, all that I read in your book has helped me relax with the situation. Maybe a friendship could lead to a connection ... or just remain a friendship.

I wrote that to help advertise your book a little because I really enjoyed it and found it very helpful (wow, I needed this last year in the midst of a nasty breakup because I certainly lost my cool). Already, I have plans to give two friends each their on own copy - they'll certainly benefit from it!

Thanks once again for your helpful advice.

Hi Rhonda,

Thank you for coming to this board. I frequented the message board on your Web site (link removed) and I wanted to thank you for getting me through a rough period in my life with the WRONG person. I got married to a wonderful guy and I'm doing well in school. There is life after an ambivalent man!!

Michele (michelemybell)

Rhonda,

I really like your book, The Dating Cure, and thought Don't Call That Man and The Committment Cure have also been good dating aids for me in the last few years. I'm glad you wrote them. Thank you !

Markers,

With all due respect, I do not think the majority of women "seem to be attracted to jerks" instead of nice guys.

Too many nice women I know are dating or engaged to nice guys.

If you went out with a woman who later decided to go out with someone else she liked better, or was more attracted to, or had more in common with initially, she made a choice as to someone she hoped she was more compatible with, either emotionally, intellectually, physically or financially, than she thought she was with you.

I understand if you felt hurt. No one likes to be rejected. It happens though, and the best way for you to heal from it is to look at your part in what happenned.

Ask yourself if there was ANYTHING you could have done differently in the time you spent together. Take responsibility for your actions with her.

Did you show up on time ?

Did you call and make plans several days in advance ?

Did you ask her what she wanted to do and do that ?

Were you polite and well-mannered ?

Were you showered and shaved and dressed nicely ?

Did you act respectful and not try to hold her hand/put your arm around her waist/kiss her before she felt comfortable with your advances ?

Were you sensitive to whether you two really had anything in common -- or did you just hope for the best because you found her attractive ?

Were you in any way controlling, rude, demanding, insensitive or thoughtless in any remarks you might have made ?

If you were a genuinely nice guy, you'll attract a genuinely nice girl. This one might not have been 'the one for you", and maybe there are lessons to be learned from what happenned.

Put your best foot forward whether it be in e-mails or on the phone and in person, and I'd bet that there will definitely be a girl who will prefer you over someone who doesn't do all of the above --

Sincerely,

Amber

Kam got your post. No prob. My fingers/lips are silent.

And I would certainly agree that we need to becareful what advice we are taking. That was definitely not what I was sugggesting to anyone who might've misunderstood my post.

Kookie,

Thanks so much for letting me know that my book has helped you and sharing this information with the other readers.

Michelle,

Of course I remember you Michelle! You were one of the original posters on my message board. I remember when you used to post about that guy. What wonderful news about your marriage. Many congratulations to you. Thanks so much for letting me know. It was great hearing from you.

Amber,

Thanks for sharing your positive feedback about my books. I'm glad they were so helpful for you.

Sebulous,

link removed is the most popular site I always hear about. But there are droves of them. I will be answering the remainder of your question in the next post. I see you're from England. Just letting you know I will be doing a book signing at Leeds, England at Borders, Thursday September 1, 2005 7 p.m. If you want to ask me in person because there will be a discussion.

To Markers and Alboy,

It's true that some women only get attracted to, and want to hang out with men who treat them poorly and have one or all of the following characteristics: good-looking, edgy, unreliable, noncommittal, primitive, macho. Often these women come to see me for consultations because they are usually unhappy in their relationships or situations and/or can't get married. However, for every women who likes "jerks," I also know a man who likes women who are very good-looking, edgy, unstable, unavailable, and inconsistent (one or all of these characteristics).

So why do women like bad boys? For the same reasons so many men are into playboy model types, "hot babes" etc. Many men totally discount and devalue women who are not good-looking enough. They are only interested in and only pursue what Howard Sterns calls "hot chicks". So then why should men complain about women who are into macho aggressive men?

I consider only being into these types or blueprints (bad boys, hot chicks) very shallow. The people who have successful relationships usually have a deeper and more emotionally mature attitude about potential partners, looking at the "whole person" rather than if she's a hot chick or he is a bad boy.

Maybe men who are having problems meeting women should reevaluate the women that they select or choose to pursue. Maybe they only find women who are unavailable, challenging, edgy, "aloof" (this was mentioned on one of those men sites as what women want) as the kind of women who turn them on. Maybe they should stop putting so much emphasis on looks and the "hot babe" factor and instead look for women who reciprocates their interest, happy to hear from them and wants to date them, treats them respectfully, is reliable and doesn't lie, and has the capacity to have long term relationships and doesn't play mind games with them.

I don't think there is a magic trick to all this. Like, if you use certain lines you're going to get the woman.

I do think that if you are shy you should work on increasing your social skills however by joining a therapy group, going for individual therapy, taking workshops, etc. Therapy could also help a man become more appealing to women because they work through issues that could be standing in the way of their attracting women and/or having successful relationships with women. Also the more "together" you are as a man the more evolved and expanded your choices in women may become, resulting in more woman being available to you.

I feel confident in what I'm saying because I have male clients and all of them are in relationships within 3 months of our working together.

In my clinical and personal experience I've observed that men who've complained to me about women not liking nice guys, (and they say they're a nice guy) sometimes have behaviors or say things that are inappropriate or turn women off. For instance they'll be reliable, intelligent, take her on a nice date but maybe they'll stare at her chest or body, are subtly sarcastic or hostile, are extremely quiet or introverted (relating to themselves rather than their date), make inappropriate sexual remarks, poorly groomed…it could be a plethora of things a man is unaware he is doing that is pushing a woman away. So when he gets rejected, he'll blame it on the woman and say "she's only into jerks and not nice guys."

In general, try to pick someone who reciprocates your interest or desire and you have something in common with. Take her on a cool date, be as attractive, well groomed, and put together as you're capable of. Act enthusiastic and interested in her but don't act desperate. Acting desperate is a major turn off to women and men. Not acting desperate however does not mean acting aloof or disinterested. Only people who are masochistic like people who could care less about them! Emotionally healthy women who have the capacity for a relationship like men who like them and are not cold and aloof! Women want to feel desired. Maybe 13-year-old girls like boys who are aloof but not grown up emotionally mature women.

If after you've done all this and you call her and she doesn't call you back or want to date you again or is playing hard to get-- then onto the next one. Remember it's a myth that some women play hard to get. They're just not interested. This happens to women all the time. There are droves and droves of stories of men who take wonderful women out on dates and the man never calls her again, Or men who take women's phone numbers and never call them again. Who knows why? It's just a universal problem for both men and women trying to find someone to love.

I'd like to thank the owner of enotalone for allowing me this opportunity to discuss my books on his site. I enjoyed responding to all of your posts – even the controversial ones. I'd like to mention that I do in person and phone consultations for anyone struggling with dating issues. You could find out more about this by clicking on the "consultations" link on my web site. I also run a psychotherapy/support group for singles which includes both men and women, in New York City.

There is also a registered membership area on my site (there is a small fee to join) where there are moderated chats and you (men) can post to women who may give you some of their own opinions on dating and relationships that could give you more insight. I lead a monthly group phone session with registered members if you want to speak with me in person.

All best to everyone,

Rhonda Findling M.A., C.R.C

Hi Rhonda I want to thank you as well for kindly agreeing to host this discussion and for all the time you spent with us answering our questions.