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The feminist zeitgeist in the media


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I thought I would share my thoughts on this one with you. Since I have an interest in the ways that men and women communicate, I occasionally do searches on the internet to see if any 'studies' have come out, or whether anyone has written an article on the subject. A quick search reveals on the first page of results alone, a series of titles beginning with such statements as:

"Men are notoriously bad at interpreting signals from women."

"Men are notoriously bad at interpreting signals from women." (I know this is the same as above, but it does come from a different source!)

"Men, listen up. After talking to many women, I'm sorry to say that you guys aren't doing your job"

"Men often misinterpret a woman's innocent smile or compliment as a sexual come-on--but why?"

" Men are funny creatures. Unlike women, who give out clear cut signals of

interest, men have a tendency to mix them all up."

 

That was just the first page! There wasn't one that even vaguely suggested that women are doing anything wrong in the dating arena. It seems that us men don't approach women enough, that women are giving off innocent signals that we are mistaking for something more (approaching too much?), that we just don't see signals, and that our signals are all mixed and confusing.

 

Honestly, it seems today that all blame for everything gets laid at the feet of men. I know that the media does not necessarily represent the views of the public, but it can send out powerful messages, and it seems to be trying to tell the world that it is men that are getting it all wrong.

 

Let us remind ourselves that it is up to the men to ask the women out (and what clearer signal is there than that?), that we shoulder 98% of the risk of initial rejection, that it is up to us to chase and to 'prove' ourselves, and that far more men end up alone than women, mainly due to the practices of women.

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Oh corvidae!!! I just got the may 2005 issue of Oprah's magazine, and it's all about men. No... like, half the magazine is telling us women how to communicate more effectively with men. If you have it there in the UK, you should pick it up!

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I did a term paper on the latent effects of feminism in Western society, and one of the issues I talked about was how men have increasingly receive blame for mutual problems and are put down often in today's media. While what I'm writing wasn't covered in the paper really, I think it's relevant given anecdotal and material research.

 

There wasn't one that even vaguely suggested that women are doing anything wrong in the dating arena.

 

That's because many women don't want to blame themselves or their shortcomings for their failures in an age where having it all is the ideal.

 

"Lack of communication" and "scapegoat" concepts are what they use to justify not being able to attract or keep the idealized man. A majority of women are often approached by men if they get out enough. It's just that the guys aren't good enough for the woman.

 

I've watched girls ENDLESSLY chase "hot" guys thinking that his failure to appreciate them was due to botched communication, as opposed to his not being very attracted to them. The next day I'll watch that girl on the dance floor blow off 3 not-so-attractive dudes who wanted to dance and then come back saying a few weeks later that "nobody" approaches her. She lamented being pursued by "losers", while she wasn't herself very attractive.

 

Back in the day, chances were you might be one of 9 eligible mates for a girl, so you were more likely to get a shot out of necessity - a 100 years ago most people never traveled more than 14 miles away from their home, so it was slim pickin's. Now though with cars and such, it's easier for people to hold out for someone they think would be better because distance is increasingly a minor factor. The average woman today could be hit on by dozens or even hundreds in her lifetime, and still be single.

 

It's a seller's market, but when people can't sell the goods for the price they wanted to get, they'll make excuses to feel better.

 

To me, this idea partially explains why people hook up so easily when drunk. I think we can be attracted to a wider variety of people than we realize but we are culturally conditioned to go after people who will make ourselves look better. Terrible self-esteem is ruining us.

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Well, those titles just serve to show you which sex actually *cares* about a couple's communication enough to try to point out what is wrong with it

 

Check out Deborah Tannen's "He said, she said" at your local or university library--it's a set of 14 lectures on 7 CDs, and it has helped me so much at school & work, as well as in my personal life. My fiance and I used to listen to the lectures in the car, and we would constantly pause them to say stuff like "See, I told you so!" or "I wish I knew that in college," or "I can't believe women/men expect to get away with that"...

 

I can't recommend this enough! There would be so many fewer posts on the relationship forum if Tannen's books were required reading

 

This is the website of the course:

link removed.show_course&course_id=27

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Honestly, it seems today that all blame for everything gets laid at the feet of men.

 

I know of a couple of comprehensive sites detailing how North American women are no good for anything and should be disdained entirely. I won't post the links here because I believe they border on hate literature towards women and homosexuals (even though there's a grain of truth in what the guy says). He also blames feminism for recent interpersonal dysfunction but his solutions are only feasible in a utopian society.

 

I agree with huszar that men are utterly devalued in today's mass media. Some of the commercials and sitcoms out there today make me uncomfortable because of the extent of this.

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Well yes lusitana, but those sites are specifically anti-women (by the sounds of it) whereas the titles I put down were random samples from sites about male/female communication, and were not supposed to be specifically anti-male. You'll always have extremes on both sides, but when the middle ground starts being bias, you have to worry.

 

Well, those titles just serve to show you which sex actually *cares* about a couple's communication enough to try to point out what is wrong with it

 

I don't see that at all. Pointing out someone elses faults is easy, taking that same analytical eye and casting it on yourself is much harder. These articles will cause some women to think that it is all the men's fault and will cause some men to feel that all the pressure is on the them, which isn't productive for anybody.

 

Huszar: brilliantly summarised and all very true. But on the other side of the coin it seems that men are all too willing to accept blame, even if it wasn't their fault.

 

Annie: I'm curious about this magazine. Does it use language like "men are terrible at picking up signals, so we women should try to make our signals clearer." And so on? I'd be surprised if it doesn't. In fact, can anyone give me an example of an article written by a woman on the faults of women's strategies in dating, in the popular press or e-magazines?

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One of my older sigs was

 

"The media sets the trends, determines the 'in-styles,' and mandates the socially acceptable standards by which society lives" -April Masini.

 

This topic demonstrates why I left it on my sig for so long. The socially acceptable standard is that today's women are smart, sexy, sassy, modern, confident etc., while we fellas are dumb oafs.

 

Annie,

 

I'm gonna peruse the "O" magazine to see what's what. Can you picture the clerks face when I tell them to ring up "O" magaznine? LOL!

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Yea we are bad at interpreting signals....hell mine were so frickin obvious with a girl I was hanging with and stuff, but I still...still questioned whether or not she liked me....in the end I messed it up tho. It all comes with experience...I mean come'on, this girl wouldnt leave me alone, told me that I 'had' to talk to her every nite, then complained that I didnt come say Hi often enough, and even one time got pissed cause I went 2 nites w/o talking to her...I didnt put up with that tho, she wasn't going to make me talk to her. Anyways, when I first met her she wouldnt leave me alone...yet for some reason I still questioned it...whether or not she liked me, even with all the flirting goin on between us. It was so stupid...just after she recently got with another guy b/c I was so bad at making moves, I looked back at it all ...everything I'd ever done/said with her. It was so obvious she really wanted me....yet I was blinded by my own feelings....movin on tho, I won't make that same mistake twice.

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Huszar: brilliantly summarised and all very true.

 

Thank you. I liked the fact that someone chose to venture a topic like this, it's very rarely discussed.

 

But on the other side of the coin it seems that men are all too willing to accept blame, even if it wasn't their fault.

 

There is a good number of guys who will do anything and everything for a pretty face, or because they don't know any better. Guys like that are easily manipulated into thinking and acting a certain way. Sex is a powerful commodity, and women are usually the ones who control it.

 

I actually had an argument with a friend recently (long story short...he used to be a dancer so he spent his entire youth almost exclusively with girls) where he claimed that "women were better people than men because they want relationships and passion and guys don't". Knowing the girls who he hung around with (very promiscuous, cheated frequently, no long lasting relationships) I have no doubt his negative perceptions were reinforced by his situation, and that they carried over from those girls who seemed messed up in the head.

 

What I meant by the last paragraph is that in addition to a number of WOMEN who make these claims, you have a number of MEN, for whatever motivation will also agree with or at least not stand up to the negative personifications. In standing up you will get blasted by women and men alike as a sexist for all intensive purposes. A good example is the President of Harvard and the negative attention he has gotten in the press for "sexist" comentary that in my opinion was supposed to be rhetorical and thought provoking on the status of women in society- not something to be taken as a statement of position. Everyone was on the guy anyway.

 

Ladies, don't take this the wrong way. I ain't hatin', I think feminism has caused a great disbalance, but it was inevitable and only because we didn't have any way to compensate for the societal changes and THAT is why things seem to have gone haywire.

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A little field research...interestingly enough, when I went out with my male friends for lunch (an established alpha male and his protege), they started talking about relationships. They said that if an attempt at a relationship is to be successful, it must be initiated by the WOMAN. According to them, the woman always gives the man a clue or signal to approach them and it is the man's responsibility to understand this signal for what it is and take appropriate action. Then they went on to trash guys who approach women aggressively without being given any positive signals, and the protege lamented over how a couple of women were giving him major signals over the weekend but he chose to pass them up, meaning that it was his fault he doesn't have a date for this weekend. So basically, they agreed with everything your quick Internet search turned up (I swear I was not coaching them in any way).

 

Once a relationship is actually established, though, they lay all the blame for breakups on women and their various neuroses that block open and effective communication So women get their share of the blame in the end.

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There is a problem with this line of reasoning. If the two fellas in your story prove that the articles/studies are all true, then there should be a wealth of articles/studies that demonstarate the second observations (women get their share of blame in the end). If Corvidae's search was gender neutral, something like "communication problems between men and women" and articles that reflect the sentiments of your second observation come up as much as the "blame men" articles, then your point is valid and Corvidae's observation about media bias against men is false.

 

However, if he used a gender neutral search, and few to no articles come up in his search that support the "women get the blame in the end", then your anecdotal evidence does nothing to invalidate Corvidae's point.

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A good example is the President of Harvard and the negative attention he has gotten in the press for "sexist" comentary that in my opinion was supposed to be rhetorical and thought provoking on the status of women in society- not something to be taken as a statement of position. Everyone was on the guy anyway.

 

Funny thing is I posted the commentary on his comments by another Harvard Prof. on another another thread, started by Corvidae - We've come full circle.

 

Here's the Quote:

 

It takes one's breath away to watch feminist women at work. At the same time that they denounce traditional stereotypes they conform to them. If at the back of your sexist mind you think that women are emotional, you listen agape as professor Nancy Hopkins of MIT comes out with the threat that she will be sick if she has to hear too much of what she doesn't agree with. If you think women are suggestible, you hear it said that the mere suggestion of an innate inequality in women will keep them from stirring themselves to excel. While denouncing the feminine mystique, feminists behave as if they were devoted to it. They are women who assert their independence but still depend on men to keep women secure and comfortable while admiring their independence. Even in the gender-neutral society, men are expected by feminists to open doors for women. If men do not, they are intimidating women.
Found at link removed

 

It was, um received less than ecstatically by the ladies on the forum.

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Well, by gender neutral I assume you are asking whether I put in search parameters that look specifically for articles that are male negative. The answer to that is no, I do not. I use key words like 'male female communication' or 'men women signals' or '"body language" men women' The aim of my searches is merely to find articles that discuss male/female communication, the stance the article takes is totally random, which is why I felt moved to discuss this issue, as almost the entire first page of results from one of these searches turned up pages with titles like those I put up at the start of this thread.

 

@ Cordivae,

 

Can you post what search parameters you used to google your search. IE was the search gender neutral?

 

Lusitana: Doorik is quite right, we aren't necessarily discussing the reality of male/female relationships, just the media's representation of it. Whether or not the man on the street feels that women are at fault is irrelevent as the media does not represent these views.

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Whether or not the man on the street feels that women are at fault is irrelevent as the media does not represent these views.

 

Yes, if anything a good number of men AND women are convinced to think the opposite with media representation.

 

Look, Homer needs Marge (and sometimes Lisa) because he's a moron. And when they do commercials on TV dinners, they'll advertise the ease of use for a "dumb" man to use it. In relationships, the guy is the "clueless" one, the girl is the protagonist. These are all media perceptions that are frequent and very biased. And we grow up with it thinking that it is true and alright.

 

Would there be a version of the Simpsons where Homer was the one who kept Marge out of trouble? Could Apple Computers market their new model as "So easy even a WOMAN can use it?" Or would feministic people lash at whomever created those broadcasts?

 

One of the problems of this era of political correctness is that you aren't allowed to challenge the "ideal", even as somewhat unrealistic that ideal has become. I don't see how thinking of men as ineffective and dumb in nature is supposed to progress society anymore than thinking of women as timid and weak, like in times past.

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Would there be a version of the Simpsons where Homer was the one who kept Marge out of trouble? Could Apple Computers market their new model as "So easy even a WOMAN can use it?" Or would feministic people lash at whomever created those broadcasts?

 

Sure. "I love lucy." Ricky was always getting Lucy out of a jam.

 

"Dharma and Greg." Same thing - flakey, new-agey dharma, and greg having to clean up her messes.

 

"Newlyweds" with Jessica Simpson and Nick Lachey. Jessica doesn't know the difference between tuna and chicken and her husband just helps her out patiently.

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You seem very defensive about this Annie. Are you saying that people such as Huszar and myself are imagining this? Personally I feel that the empirical evidence is indisputable. In today's society it is OK to be publicly sexist, provided it's against men.

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You seem very defensive about this Annie. Are you saying that people such as Huszar and myself are imagining this? Personally I feel that the empirical evidence is indisputable. In today's society it is OK to be publicly sexist, provided it's against men.

 

Sexism is a two-way street. Canadian beer commercials are a prime example of this: in almost every Molson ad, there are women bouncing around in tube tops and miniskirts, while the guys are fully-dressed observers. The amount of T & A on television is insurmountable, and is rarely, if ever, balanced with attractive males. Not only does this set unreasonable standards for how women are supposed to dress and carry themselves, but also dumbs us down on so many levels that I wouldn't even know where or how to begin. It can be depressing.

 

So I say again: Sexism works both ways. This is not a gender issue.

 

I have seen the commercials being referred to here. One in particular stands out, and is a man who uses one of those 'toilet cleaning brushes'. His wife calls him to ask if he's finished, and he rushes up to the bathroom and says, "oh .. uh yeah!" in a half-witted attempt. It does give off the impression: "So easy to use, that even a man can use it". Then again, that still puts women back in the kitchen, being masters of home-making.

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Doorik, I never claimed my anectdotal account was in any way scientific or all-encompassing. For that matter, I don't think any of the "Tee-hee, all men are idiots!" articles have any scholarly merit on their own. All we can say about them is that they are popular hits on the Internet.

 

Based on what you folks are saying, I think I may be GREATLY overestimating people's ability to form opinions based on life experience instead of media. Maybe people really are buying into everything from "Sunny D has nutritional value, I swear!" to "If your teeth aren't blindingly white and your amply-bosomed body isn't hairless, no man will ever want you" to "If you ever get married, prepare to be a mother to your dolt of a husband."

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You seem very defensive about this Annie. Are you saying that people such as Huszar and myself are imagining this? Personally I feel that the empirical evidence is indisputable. In today's society it is OK to be publicly sexist, provided it's against men.

Would there be a version of the Simpsons where Homer was the one who kept Marge out of trouble?

 

I was just replying in response to your question about the female version of homer. Yes, it exists.

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In fact, can anyone give me an example of an article written by a woman on the faults of women's strategies in dating, in the popular press or e-magazines?

 

Sure - every single dating book for women, written by women. They want you to buy their books, so they explain that you are dateless on friday nights not because you are unattractive, but because your dating strategy has been all wrong.

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In fact, can anyone give me an example of an article written by a woman on the faults of women's strategies in dating, in the popular press or e-magazines?

 

Sure - every single dating book for women, written by women. They want you to buy their books, so they explain that you are dateless on friday nights not because you are unattractive, but because your dating strategy has been all wrong.

 

Um, he asked for articles and E-magazines not books. If these articles exist, please tell us the search parameters entered into Google to find them . IE were they gender neutral or not? Remember that Corvidae's search parameters were gender neutral and the results were "Blame Men" articles

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