Dating and Sex: Double Standard

I'd like to say a word on the double standard. A lot of people, mostly women, say that it is unfair, but I would like to explain it in terms of both the societal pressures men and women exist under, and also its roots in the way our reproductive strategies have evolved from a genetic point of view.

Firstly let's look at the most basic explanation. Men go out and get women. It's a simple fact. You can read dozens of threads on this board and the message is simple: if you're a man and you want a women you need to put work in to get one. I often complain of being unsuccessful with women, and am often told that I need to 'get out there' or 'just go for it' or to analyse my approach and see what I'm doing wrong. In other words I am supposed to come up with the strategy. I am the 'go getter'. And it's not just me. My housemate Katherine would often complain of not being able to get a boyfriend, yet when questioned she would admit to having been asked out several times that month but would have turned them down for some reason or other. Men essentially presented themselves to her, and it was then her decision to take it further or not. This does not happen to men. Since it is men that put the effort in, since it is men that face and overcome the challenge, we naturally respect other men that are successful with women. If my friend Paul tells me he does well with women I congratulate him, as he is clearly doing something well. If Katherine says she is doing well with men I think big deal, they throw themselves at her anyway. It just means she says yes more. I don't think women appreciate how hard it is for men to get women, and how much easier it is for women to get men. In the same way that we congratulate someone for climbing a mountain we congratulate men for being successful with women, but in the same way that we don't congratulate a mountain for being climbed, we don't do the same for women.

The genetic explanation is linked, but also distinct. Since men do not give birth they give very little resources into fathering offspring and propagating their genes. That means that the ideal situation for a male is to mate with as many females as possible to spread his genes as much as he can. This is in opposition to what women want. Women have to dedicate a lot of time and energy to reproduction and thereforeeee have to select the best mate to ensure the further propagation of her genes. Now, we have two conflicting desires here. Men want to mate with everyone, and women want to be selective. thereforeeee men have evolved to seduce and women have, in response, evolved to resist seduction, thus retaining control of their role in the reproductive process. That is why, even today, it is the man's job to seduce the woman, and why women play hard to get. It's all in our instincts. Perhaps the double standard is unfair, but then so is placing the burdens of seduction entirely on men. We cannot remove one inequality while ignoring another. If women want a more equitable role, then they have to take half the bad as well as half the good.

I agree but then again I disagree. Women go out and try to find men too. Yes, women are selective but that's because they have learned from others or their own experiences that men can be dogs because they as you said want to spread their genes with any woman possible.

Jaiva

If women want a more equitable role, then they have to take half the bad as well as half the good.

I think you make a good point Corvidae.

Things will even out the day men start giving birth and women everywhere take equal pay for equal work.

Men are participants in the marketplace of buying and selling love and affection as much as women. Just as women are entitled to find certain things more attractive than others, men are entitled to the same privilege.

Society is partly made up by women too, so generically blaming it on men is troublesome. Women, at least most, also want a man to be a man -- to be able to get what he wants, to be confident and successful in his efforts.

The other side of the sexual double standard is the "nice guy" angle -- women have distaste for men who are sexless, driveless, powerless, etc. Men have some distaste for women who do not respect themselves.

So in the end, I'm not sure its a double standard.

I will caveat that I do not understand the anger that some men feel toward wonton women, which I can only assume comes from insecurity.

Men essentially presented themselves to her, and it was then her decision to take it further or not. This does not happen to men.

Now, I know that you are trying to construct a theory here, but I have to say, I don't agree with that statement at all. Plenty of women I know, myself included, have gone out to "get men." I've asked plenty of guys out, but it usually doesn't lead anywhere. So, I actually decided to stop asking guys out because it wasn't really working for me. Now, people tell me all the time that I'm attractive, but I guess every guy doesn't consider me to be his type. And that's ok. That's why women turn down some men who ask them out - not their type.

Yeah - and why do you think us women reject men so often? You wrote the post from the perspective of "the man is looking to get sex." When a man approaches me and I get that "I'm looking for sex" vibe from him - it's such a turn off! I feel like he's a salavating dog, and I'm a piece of juicy meat. It makes me feel very uncomfortable, so yeah, that guy won't get my number, and I won't talk to him either.

I think it's a two-way street.

Men generally aren't gutsy enough to just approach a woman without sensing some sort of positive vibe from the woman, which gives them a clear signal.

The attraction that may or may not result after a conversation is usually then left to chemistry. Plenty of men are not interested in a woman after getting to know her.

Anyway, I don't think that this should be a reason for men to hesitate when approaching women. I guess a good way to look at it is that you never had her in the first place - so you lost nothing if shes not interested.....but potentially stand to gain everything if she is.

I think men and women look at dating differently, women want attention and to feel that they are special to a man. A man just wants to get in your pants (most of the time).

It's funny when I think about it, I have been in a relationship for 4 years now, and I get hit on more now than when I was single, they know I have a boyfriend and they still try to get in my pants.

Even married men hit on me, I was offered $150.00 from a married man with 4 children, to show him my breasts and a kiss. Men are so stupid, obviously his wife loved him enough to have 4 children with him yet he is willing to spend their money on a cheap thrill.

I didn't do it by the way. I believe in being loyal to the one I love.

At my age if I was single in the dating world again, I think it would be hard to find a man that would be trustworthy, being a bartender I've seen how unloyal many men can be.

Men should be upfront with their intentions to begin with, and not play games if they want a relationship to last, be truthful about everything so you get someone you will want to spend the rest of your life with.

I didn't do it by the way. I believe in being loyal to the one I love.

Are you saying you would have done that if you were single....?

No I would not do that if I was single because I have a conscience, I don't think it is right, his wife probably doesn't even know that he is doing this behind her back.

Married men that seek out cheap thrills are jerks, they have a wife - go home and play with her, maybe she would like it!

They are only hurting themselves in the long run, she will find out one day.

This is why I think men should be more open in the beginning because it effects the woman and himself in the long run.

If my friend Paul tells me he does well with women I congratulate him, as he is clearly doing something well. If Katherine says she is doing well with men I think big deal, they throw themselves at her anyway. It just means she says yes more. I don't think women appreciate how hard it is for men to get women, and how much easier it is for women to get men. In the same way that we congratulate someone for climbing a mountain we congratulate men for being successful with women, but in the same way that we don't congratulate a mountain for being climbed, we don't do the same for women.

Best. Analogy. Ever

Plenty of women I know, myself included, have gone out to "get men." I've asked plenty of guys out, but it usually doesn't lead anywhere. So, I actually decided to stop asking guys out because it wasn't really working for me.

Your statement proves Corvidae's point. No matter how many times we get rejected we are expected to go in for more. We simply do not have the luxary of the "oh well, asking girls out doesn't work for me so I'll stop doing it" mentallity - Well, unless our steady girlfriend is handrea or palmala... That said, many fellas feel that after asking countless girl after countless girl out on dates they have come to the conclusion that they have been brow-beaten into silence by constant rejection. Doh well.....

I agree with doorik. A woman can afford to 'give up' asking because she knows that simply eliminates some, but not all, of her options. Men will still approach her. However, if a man gives up approaching women then he has given up any chance at all. I am not saying that women do not get rejected, after all there are dozens of reasons why a person might reject you that have nothing to do with your appeal, but it tends to only form a small portion of the female approach. I'm not making this up, everything I'm saying here has come from years of observation. Because a women may have asked a man out once or twice, she then thinks that the idea that men always do the asking is wrong. This misses the point that men do not have the option to ask or not to ask; they must ask or never get anywhere. I can put myself forward as a prime example of a man who never asks and has reached 26 without ever having a relationship. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but if you took a female version of me, she would not be in this situation.

Anyway, I'm getting off point. I really just wanted to explain that many people view the 'double standard' as being some sort of unfair rule imposed on women by society, but that it does have a reasonable explanation. I often talk about people meeting in bars, and men do often look just for sex in such circumstances, but women also expect men to do the chasing in all areas of life.

Hmmm... Okay first of all, I think you've spent far too much time analyzing this. Which might be your biggest problem! LOL! But also, I think you're failing to see it from a woman's point of view as well. Sure, men are encouraged to keep trying and to keep moving forward. But so are women. The difference between men and women- in the way that you've portrayed them- is that men will date anything with ovaries, and women would rather have a meaningful relationship.

Basically you're saying that because (we'll take the example of your friend Katherine) women don't say yes to every man that pushes themselves upon us, that somehow we have it easier than men. I would actually say it's about 50/50 if you consider the needs of each gender. Men will take almost anything, according to you. But they are often rejected by women. And women want something meaningful, but since most men are looking to settle for anything, obviously the women don't have a lot of options, so we continually have to say no. We don't ENJOY saying no. We want to find the ideal mate just as much as men do!

It's as frustrating for us as it is for you. I admit, for someone in Katherine's situation to complain that she can't get a date is... less than accurate. If she were to complain that she can't seem to attract the type of man she wants, that would be a different story.

I'm with PADreamer on this one. I think men don't really see things from the womans perspective. Just because we have if different than men in the dating scene, doen't mean it's any easier. It's just different.

You're theory would only be true under the assumption that all men were nice guys and we never give them a chance. The same for women. Not all women are nice.

I think that people are so different, there's no way to generalize.

I'm just sick of the "woe is me" attitude. Awwww... you feel bad that you are man? Well, you have two options: #1: get a sex change. #2: deal with it.

There are advantages to being a man, and there are advantages to being a woman. Sure, I don't have a hard time finding a date, but I have a difficult time trying to find a soul-mate, which is what I'm really looking for. You just have to play with the cards that you are dealt. If anyone complains about their lack of dating options, male or female, I say, go out and DO something about it!

I'm just sick of the "woe is me" attitude. Awwww... you feel bad that you are man? Well, you have two options

 

I guess he was trying to show the balance or imbalance in gender stereotypes. Some women say men have some advantages.

But in the area of dating men have none.

I can understand where you're coming from Corvidae, but I doubt this will ever change. Waiting for guys to initiate dates is a definite benefit for women, but I think its just a small perk. Come to think of it, I've mostly experienced being asked out by women up front that I wasn't attracted to. The more attractive the woman is the more likely you're going to have to put in work, or "game," in order to get her.

You're not going to see some stunning woman out and about asking guys out, probably ever. This is what I see and experience all the time. Level of attractiveness/confidence plays a large role in how aggressive some women are in dating with some men. It seems unfair, but its more complicated then it looks on the surface.

I'm just sick of the "woe is me" attitude. Awwww... you feel bad that you are man? Well, you have two options: #1: get a sex change. #2: deal with it.

And don't expect much simpathy from most women.

Well the thing is that this can all be turned around by having the attitude that if you don't get the girl then oh well there are hundreds of them out there. Her loss. I don't think it's even worth discussing this. Just accept how things are in the dating world and show what you're made of.

Oh dear, this has turned into another 'what's wrong with me, help!' thread. I really didn't want it to. The idea of a double standard had crept up in another thread and I just wanted to explain it. Really, that's all. I brought up my own situation because that's the only one I feel I know enough about to comment on, not because I wanted sympathy (though anyone complaining that people on these boards complain too much is, I think, missing the point of the boards). I actually think the 'double standard' is a wonderful example of how traits we've gained through evolution, in other words in our creation, become represented in our social constructs, ie. in what we create.

Well - Corvidae - I do agree that evolution has created a system where the men are the aggresors, the pursuers, and women are the ones who get to accept or decline advances.

(though anyone complaining that people on these boards complain too much is, I think, missing the point of the boards).

But, in response to this comment, obviously, yes, the point of the boards is to get stuff off your chest. However, there's a difference in complaining about the things you can do something about, and those things that you can't.

How does that quote go....

God,

Grant me the serentity to accept the things I can not change,

The courage to change the things I can,

And the wisdom to know the difference.

Complaining that men or women get the short end of the stick doesn't really get you anywhere. What DOES help is actually going out and doing something about it!

And don't expect much simpathy from most women.

OOOOOOkay... LOL! First of all, I take offense to the "the more attractive the woman is the more likely you're going to have to put in work, or "game," in order to get her" line! Cause I'm a very upfront, outgoing woman and I am very often the one who initiates my relationships. So... You're saying I'm ugly! LOL! Or easy, I'm not sure which...

Also, I would like to point out to some of the people here that we're not saying that we have no sympathy for the dating situation of men. Personally, I would say ANYONE who sits around whining about how they can't get a date- male OR female- needs to take a very serious look at themselves. People like to point the finger and say, "there's something wrong with the system... with the way things are". I don't see too many people who are so quick to change THEMSELVES for the better to achieve their goals in dating. It's not just men. What we ARE saying is that men are not the only ones who feel like this. The way that men and women approach dating, in general, is very different. But there are ups and downs on both sides.

And here's a tip for some of you who "can't get a date" and can't figure out why: STOP TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT! Overanalyzing things will simply make your situation worse. We aren't always meant to know the answers. People just need to let it happen in its own time- remember the song "You Can't Hurry Love".

OOOOOOkay... LOL! First of all, I take offense to the "the more attractive the woman is the more likely you're going to have to put in work, or "game," in order to get her" line! Cause I'm a very upfront, outgoing woman and I am very often the one who initiates my relationships. So... You're saying I'm ugly! LOL! Or easy, I'm not sure which...

This doesn't apply to every single person, its a "general" observation. From my experience, this happens like 95% of the time. I know this may be considered offensive, but I don't like to sugar coat things (especially on the internet) because it doesn't help anyone. Women who more aggressively initiate relationships happen to fall into that category, again, just a general observation. Attractiveness is powerful, and although it seems shallow, it exists and can't be ignored.

I know this is off topic but I can't help myself.

OK, does it really matter to justify who exactly "puts in more work?" I mean, people just do things because they want to. As a guy if you are actually having to put in a lot of work to get a girl, then you most certaintly aren't getting her the way that you should be getting her. Men should be themselves, they attack in a subtle way. To get a girl you don't devise a plan... You simply go, enjoy the music enjoy your time... you talk to a girl so randomly, you two talk for a bit about this and that, she likes you, you like her good game.

Women are not always the choosers... in fact the last 2 girls I have dated both approached me before I approached them. They were curious, thought I looked nice hence, they had curiosity.

I don't think analyzing the situation is going to get anywhere in that it doesn't prove/solve or come closer to any kind of resolution. The real point that is being made is that frustration is a common thing. We all get frustrated feeling that when we want, we must go out and get. But the sooner us men, realize that things come in tides and moments rather than moving the moon and pushing the moments to get what we want, the sooner the better things will come out of it all. The less frustration there will be, and the less posts like these will occur.

I think men should stop worrying about being the "go-getters" that is life, that is human nature, human instinct to want. Relax... its really silly and really annoying at the same time for men to say this stuff, I guess some just don't know how simple it is to be natural be cool, be fun, be nice.

I guess I was just blessed with some of that, cuz I find myself lucky quite often. I surround myself with good people, and introduce me to more good people, and then I begin having a chain of friends and a chain of good female friends..

I dunno, just irritating to see an analysis post when its really not that much of an issue.

ForAnother

ForAnother

OK, does it really matter to justify who exactly "puts in more work?"

Not really, but whats wrong with discussing observations?

I mean, people just do things because they want to.

That seems obvious.

As a guy if you are actually having to put in a lot of work to get a girl, then you most certaintly aren't getting her the way that you should be getting her.

Thats why guys post here, to get help/advice.

Men should be themselves, they attack in a subtle way. To get a girl you don't devise a plan... You simply go, enjoy the music enjoy your time... you talk to a girl so randomly, you two talk for a bit about this and that, she likes you, you like her good game.

You make it sound so easy, and it might be for you, but not everyone does this so naturally. In fact, it took some time before I was able to incorporate some of what you mentioned.

Women are not always the choosers

You're right, but in general men are expected to approach and women choose.

I don't think analyzing the situation is going to get anywhere in that it doesn't prove/solve or come closer to any kind of resolution.

I agree, but I don't think the orginal poster was trying to find some sort of resolution.

I dunno, just irritating to see an analysis post when its really not that much of an issue.

I don't know, it may be counter-productive to wonder about such things but thats what makes us human......curiosity, analysis, etc. Some guys have a real problem dealing with women and it could be for any number of reasons....but how about tossing some advice in instead of just being "irritated" and "annoyed" with the post?