It's Not the First Date, That Kills, it's the 2nd.

I'm working on a new theory. For men the most crucial date isn't the first, or third, or fifth. It's the second date.

I have no proof, research or evidence. But I sure have a lot of speculation, and a history not getting past the second date. And speculation if speculative enough is almost like fact.

It's snowing here and the city is pretty much shut down. Normally I would have had my run today. And I would have traveled to the downtown and done something. Instead I've been cooped up. I've written, I've played guitar, and I've Netflixed. Not enough to prevent me from ruminating over my most recent failure. Ugh. And as part of this latest rumination of concluded I'm doing something wrong around the second date.

But before we get to that. Here's my theory. A woman goes on a first date to see if there's any attraction, and to do a quick assessment. The man shows up on the first date to see if she looks like her pictures, and just tries not to do something stupid. If things go well and there is enough interest the woman will agree to a second date, if asked. She will usually hint or make her interest known after the first date. Usually in the form of a "thanks for the date, it was nice meeting you", text or email.

The second date the woman wants to learn more and start assessing for compatibility. She will also look for red flags, general demeanor and hygiene. The man shows up and tries not to do something stupid. He'll try to be fun and interesting, and manly. Usually if the man is on a second date he's pretty close to making up his mind. Not on a relationship, but if he digs this woman and wants to proceed.

And this is where things get baffling for men. The second date can be wonderful. The woman might even say so, and demonstrate through action and body language. She may even agree to another date. And she may mean it at that point when she says it. But, here's what happens after the second date. Men look forward to the next meeting. Women go home and think. And then they think some more. And if she has any doubts, no matter how small, it's over.

So in order for a man to proceed to the third date he has to execute flawlessly on the first two dates, and the woman must be attracted enough to continue. If there's enough attraction, a man might get away with a small infraction.

And because it's still snowing I'm going to make this a really long post.

In December I'm about to close my POF account. I'm really not into it. I'm still smarting from Octoberish when I foolishly befriended someone I thought I wouldn't 'like'. Then I received a very simple email from a woman with a couple of attached photos. I wasn't entirely convinced. The photos weren't very clear, her profile was sparse. I held off for a couple of days. Then I responded. Emails lead to texting. Texting lead to a meet on boxing day. It was 2.5 hours of walking through a park. I really enjoyed it, and found her very attractive. And up until this point everything had been going text book. She texted me later that day thanking me for the walk. I thanked her and said I would really like to get to know her better.

Over the next few days I was enjoying playing text tennis with her. Everything still seem to be going swimmingly. A little hiccup. She was supposed to text me back to set up our second date, but she passed out from drinking. I know sounds pretty dramatic. It was NY day and she was dragged off to a levy. She doesn't drink. She came at 8:00, laid down fell asleep. Around 10:45 I was a little disgruntled and wanted to get back to being gruntled. I'm a little embarrassed at my passive aggressive text. To make a long story short we made it the next day to another walk. This one was three hours. We laughed about the previous evening and put it all behind.

At the end of the walk she put down blueprint on how she would like things to proceed. She wanted to go slow. She wanted to be friends. She said she doesn't just want a relationship, she wanted friendship and a relationship. She believes friendship should form the basis of a strong relationship. She said maybe a couple of more walks, and then a diner, and then see where things were. I said I would like that, it sounds good, and I enjoyed the way things were unfolding. We were both smiley and happy. I joked about a tendency to sometimes go quick. But if I did just put me in my place. She quipped about stomping on me. I agreed to be stomped on. It was a nice kiss and hug good bye. Little longer than a peck, but not too long. I sent her a text later saying how much I enjoyed our conversation that day, and she responded.

Up until this point we texted every day. Very brief. I initiate, then she initiates. That was Saturday.

Sunday. Nothing. So I said to myself "Self, don't panic. The last time you panicked and sent a dumb text.." So I didn't think too much about it. Wait and see. Monday. She texted me. Said she wasn't trying to avoid me, her dad was not well. Spent the day with him, and was doing the same today. Said this was going to be her focus. I said no problem, hope things work out O.K, I'll be here. Wednesday. Sent her a quick 'just thinking of you, hope everything is O.K.. or getting better.' Early in the morning she replied. Thanked me for the text, gave me a quick update, and wished me well, and then said take care.

It's important to note 'take care' has a certain connotation in these parts. It doesn't mean take care. It means good bye, but I don't want to say good bye. I want you to infer from this regional anomaly that further contact is not necessary. Imagine if you bumped into someone you knew a long time ago. You have that awkward polite chat. Around here you would say 'take care' after you're done talking. You don't say 'take care' to someone you're actively interested in. But it is text. No panic. Relax. I can't possibly see this not going to a third date. You should have seen her smile after the kiss.

So I figured O.K., she has other priorities. When she's sorted she will get back to me. In our game of texting tennis it was her turn to initiate. And she stated her focus was on family right now. So sit tight.

I was hoping to hear from her over the weekend. Maybe just hello or something. But no problem. Tuesday morning I logged into POF to close my account. Wasn't using it. If this didn't pan out, whatever, I wasn't really that keen on POF anyways. As I stated somewhere earlier. I noticed she logged in that morning. It was only 10:00 AM. Normally I don't care about when they are logging in. But, the whole time we were chatting she wasn't logging in. And now she was. Even though her focus was family. Still not going to panic. That was this Monday past. And since it's snowing I did a search on pof today. Sorted by last logged in. She was there again. So, I've concluded she's moved on. I'm sure she was sincere about her dad. But it also gave her good cover. And killed momentum. Add to this the normal thinking phase after date number two, and I'm done. Maybe it was joking about going too fast? Maybe I said something else that was bothering her now? Who knows. The dreaded post second date thinking phenomenon.

And now that I'm half in the bag if I didn't write all this out I would drunk text her about how I thought we had a great connection, and I wanted to reverse my vasectomy so she can be the mother of my children. I'm kidding. I'm not drunk, but if I was that's the kind of nonsense I could find myself doing.

I haven't ruled out I may just have screwed up. She didn't explicitly say don't contact me. She just said she wasn't avoiding me. Maybe she wondered where I went??? Especially when she could have used someone to talk to. And right after she said she wanted to build a friendship. Nahhh, I never screwed up. It's the second date thing. I'm sure of it.

Damn, she was saweet. Blonde, athletic and a smile to die for. Sigh. I hope it's clear tomorrow. I need to run and see my friends.

Good night.

You know they don't call it Plenty of flakes for nothing

With that said, I have had some success there, however it takes a tremendous amount of effort to get to that success. With all that snow, you should have plenty of time sport

POF is kind of like the lottery. The ex that brought me to ena was a guy I met on pof. It was a good relationship for a couple of years. My brother met his current gf on pof. She is a very successful animal vet in our city. She was the third lady he met in person in his quest.

I think both of us knew by date ONE.

Forget theory....

The moment you see/hear/read "I want to go slow" or "I want to be friends first" RUN!!!! She is damaged goods and you'll find out shortly what that means in her particular case....as you did I might add.

I use the term damaged goods loosely and in a kind of all encompassing sense - as in she might be fresh out of a break up, had a string of bad relationships so she doesn't trust her judgment at the moment. I mean it could be all kinds of legitimate seeming reasons for why. The thing is.....what it means to you is that like it or not, she is not really ready and able to be fully open to dating and a relationship. The inevitable pull push and the confusion will follow if you engage at all with someone who is not in a positive state of mind and open and ready to date.

So in order for a man to proceed to the third date he has to execute flawlessly on the first two dates, and the woman must be attracted enough to continue. If there's enough attraction, a man might get away with a small infraction.

Haha, love that theory! I should tell my husband that he was lucky that I gave him a third date after he screwed up royally on our first two!

I grew up saying "take care", and it is still an expression of goodwill that I use often. It is something I say to someone that I don't see regularly, for me it does not mean goodbye forever, or that I am not interested in speaking with that person again. I know some people take it that way, but I feel like that is a more recent interpretation which I find interesting because that is never my intention or interpretation. I find "goodbye" has more of an finality to it than "take care" does. However, I think in the world of dating we tend to overanalyze these expressions.

I agree with you about the second date thing, the last time I was online I was waffling about and it mostly it had to do with where I was at as opposed to the person I was meeting. If I am burnt out by the online dating scene and am only there grudgingly, my tolerance is exceptionally low, and the teeniest thing can turn me off because I have no patience. Perhaps that is where this woman is at? I am not suggesting that you did something to scare her off, but more that perhaps her supposed flakiness is because she is a bit burnt out.

What you do now could turn things around... say nothing and you don't get what you want, inquire about the status of the two of you and she will probably run away, but keep things light and fluffy and suggest another walk, another nice time together and perhaps she will join you.

Worth the risk don't you think?

You know they don't call it Plenty of flakes for nothing

With that said, I have had some success there, however it takes a tremendous amount of effort to get to that success. With all that snow, you should have plenty of time sport

 

POF works for me better than OKC

It isn't the second date, it's the first. We just give the guys who don't really impress us a second chance because maybe, just maybe, he was nervous or something. If things don't get better, the second date is it. We act nice because we have been taught since childhood not to disturb the male ego, so we play nice. You just won't get a third date if we're still not impressed, but we don't know how to say, "no thanks" bluntly, so we waffle and just fade away.

I'm a man and I'm more like the woman in your scenario. I have no time or energy to proceed with something that I know isn't going to last close to forever. And I don't know that it's fair to my dates to do so either. It's usually never something she did or didn't do, but something that puts me off - or that when I think about it later feels wrong somehow. I just know this is not my person, the same way that a few times in my life, I just knew she was my person. I'm sure she's great for someone else, it's just clearly not going to work out with me.

Sometimes I ghost. Usually when I feel that she has no connection either. I may go out a third time if she contacts me again - maybe my assessment was wrong, and at least it's some proof that she is interested which I may not have seen. Usually she doesn't.

Other times I clearly state my intentions.

I'm also trying to do that second option more than the first, but it's hard. If I shut it down, then that doesn't give her the chance to change my mind. It's so final.

Dating is weird. I hate it (the process, not good dates). I'm probably not ready to do it. And yet, how can I get ready without practicing? Such is life.

It isn't the second date, it's the first. We just give the guys who don't really impress us a second chance because maybe, just maybe, he was nervous or something. If things don't get better, the second date is it. We act nice because we have been taught since childhood not to disturb the male ego, so we play nice. You just won't get a third date if we're still not impressed, but we don't know how to say, "no thanks" bluntly, so we waffle and just fade away.

why is it ok for a woman to fade away and not a man?

It isn't the second date, it's the first. We just give the guys who don't really impress us a second chance because maybe, just maybe, he was nervous or something. If things don't get better, the second date is it. We act nice because we have been taught since childhood not to disturb the male ego, so we play nice. You just won't get a third date if we're still not impressed, but we don't know how to say, "no thanks" bluntly, so we waffle and just fade away.

Exactly this. I've even gone on a third date with men who were so nice I felt they deserved one more chance...I imagine men do it, too, as I've had men disappear after a second or third date.

I'm just one woman, so take this with a HUGE pinch of salt.

- I make it clear to every man who is interested in me, however captivated or hesitant I am at a first impression, that I want to go slow, that I want to build a friendship. But generally, I don't have to explicitly state that, because the men I'm looking for seem laid back in their approach as well and they are good at reading me on this, so it's implied (this makes him more attractive to me, by the way). So if a man states that he tends to rush or move too fast, that becomes an instant little warning flag to me that we may not be on the same page about how to build intimacy over time, and I also worry that he's got an anxious/desperate streak in him. Or he's just impatient to get to a goal. Either way, it feels like I'm going to have to slow him down, and it's not good when that happens, because it's lopsided. If he tells me I'll have to slow him down (even as a joke and light-heartedly), I see the truth in that and it's clear he's already running ahead of me. In the right situation, these things aren't usually articulated, because you're in sync, and if they are, it's a mutual wish.

- If I feel intuitively that a man has to be told explicitly that I want to start with friendship and going slow, chances are he's the type that needs to be told, and again, that reflects a kind of "date-process" mismatch, so a mismatch of temperaments and priorities, aka, not a positive sign for overall compatibility.

- I don't kiss a man I've only met twice on the second date, not because I have rules about it, but because by its very nature, that's already going too fast (did you initiate that kiss?) Even if I'm attracted, a second date is too fast to have a first kiss, which is an emotional and romantic act for me. A first kiss isn't a casual parting/trial balloon gesture to me, it's supposed to happen when I feel a lot of strong attraction, and a kind of "have my heart set on him" feeling.

- Generally, a second date to me is a chance to verify feelings from a first date; it's not about a man having to be "flawless"; if a second date doesn't go well for me, it's usually that a straw broke the camel's back somewhere along the way. It's a cumulative thing.

Having said all this, I do tend to think that you jump the gun, Sportster. You make a lot of assumptions, all the while hyperalyzing (something I'm all too familiar with), so by the time you get to actually interact with the woman, I think you've kind of built up a good deal of tension and that comes out in subtle ways. I also would take a passive aggressive text that early in the game as a red flag (even if she could have been more considerate). I will be honest, passive aggressiveness is a huge turn-off and that soon, it looks like it could be a major MO thing. She might not have gotten over that, and in fact that might be why she laid it out about feeling things out.

I really, really think that in ways, there might be a level of anxiety you're projecting that women can sense. It comes out as an over-eager comment, an apology for an over-eager comment, a passive aggressive text, a joke about a passive aggressive text -- this kind of stuff can be a matter of misunderstanding in an established relationship, but as a vibe you're sending out early on, it comes off as warning signals that there is a lot of pressure on your end and maybe a lot of need that's just simmering below the surface. Like you're trying to pull off seeming cool about it all, but it's not really cool. Of course, easy to say since I know some of the things you've gone through which a stranger wouldn't know...but I also think that the scenarios you describe sound like ones where I've been the woman, and it felt ever-so-slightly like The Agenda was leading, running the show. It's just an uncomfortable feeling hard to pin on any one word, act, thing.

But it's also possible you shoot your foot by calling the game too soon -- and here you might be doing it again (imo).

This is not the first time a woman you find attractive has said she wanted to be friends first. I know you've written this scenario off, but a lot of women want to feel that they are falling in love with someone based on trust, with sparks being the byproduct of that. You might have a shot at these women, but in your haste, you kind of try to gauge things, make some assumptions and shoot your foot instead. Where I live, "take care" can mean bye, or TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF UNTIL WE TALK AGAIN.

Most likely, it's a combination of things that happened. A few little hitches too soon when she wants to move slower, her family is ill, she has other prospects to weigh. It's not about "the second date". It's about "the whole picture of my life and how well does this feeling for this man, and the way he makes me feel, sit in relation to everything else."

a lot of women want to feel that they are falling in love with someone based on trust, with sparks being the byproduct of that. You might have a shot at these women, but in your haste, you kind of try to gauge things, make some assumptions and shoot your foot instead. Where I live, "take care" can mean bye, or TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF UNTIL WE TALK AGAIN.

100% agree! I have ALWAYS had crushes only on friends (excluding celeb crushes, of course), and my current love interest is my best friend. I think friendship is the best basis for a couple since you already know how to treat each other as friends...so the friendship naturally morphs into something more beautiful and complete.

Or maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic. xD

Forget theory....

 

The moment you see/hear/read "I want to go slow" or "I want to be friends first" RUN!!!! She is damaged goods and you'll find out shortly what that means in her particular case....as you did I might add.

 

I use the term damaged goods loosely and in a kind of all encompassing sense - as in she might be fresh out of a break up, had a string of bad relationships so she doesn't trust her judgment at the moment. I mean it could be all kinds of legitimate seeming reasons for why. The thing is.....what it means to you is that like it or not, she is not really ready and able to be fully open to dating and a relationship. The inevitable pull push and the confusion will follow if you engage at all with someone who is not in a positive state of mind and open and ready to date.

I wouldn't be surprised. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility she's a saboteur. During our first walk she mentioned the last guy "just stopped texting". I find it a bit odd that from her perspective I could appear to have "just stopped texting". The ambiguity she created made it difficult to continue texting. I didn't want to crowd her as she dealt with her dad. So the idea that she is unsure of her own intentions hasn't slipped my mind. I think, like me, she really enjoyed the effortlessness of the beginning. But a the first sign of any difficulty she bailed. Then she could say to herself I tried. Men just keep flaking on me. In short it was an orchestrated failure, and she was simply acting out of avoiding getting hurt, again.

Or I could be completely wrong Regardless, once again I am left confused.

I can empathize in that it's rougher to get turned down after the second date than it is after the first. It's precisely why I don't ask women out or accept their invitation simply because I haven't found a good reason to nix them. If I'm not feeling it, I'm not feeling it, and accepting or soliciting a woman for a second date quite obviously gives the impression that I am. It's one thing if you've got some real reasons to think you might dig the person and simply want to see what a second encounter brings, but a lot of people mistakenly think that they need a good reason not to go on a second date.

Personally, I simply keep myself too busy to be entertaining women I know I'm not all that interested in, so I can't say it's completely altruistic, but I do believe in respecting their time and feelings by not taking them out again when I know better.

I grew up saying "take care", and it is still an expression of goodwill that I use often. It is something I say to someone that I don't see regularly, for me it does not mean goodbye forever, or that I am not interested in speaking with that person again. I know some people take it that way, but I feel like that is a more recent interpretation which I find interesting because that is never my intention or interpretation. I find "goodbye" has more of an finality to it than "take care" does. However, I think in the world of dating we tend to overanalyze these expressions.

 

I agree with you about the second date thing, the last time I was online I was waffling about and it mostly it had to do with where I was at as opposed to the person I was meeting. If I am burnt out by the online dating scene and am only there grudgingly, my tolerance is exceptionally low, and the teeniest thing can turn me off because I have no patience. Perhaps that is where this woman is at? I am not suggesting that you did something to scare her off, but more that perhaps her supposed flakiness is because she is a bit burnt out.

 

What you do now could turn things around... say nothing and you don't get what you want, inquire about the status of the two of you and she will probably run away, but keep things light and fluffy and suggest another walk, another nice time together and perhaps she will join you.

 

Worth the risk don't you think?

No, I don't think it's worth the risk. In these situations I think you have to let them come to you. If she has any thread of interest left texting her will ruin that. Also, I want someone that wants to be with me. My interest was clear. Hers was initially. It's her move. And if her move is to move on, I have to respect that. It frees me up to look for someone else.

I concede I may be placing too much on 'take care'. Her silence, now that's another story

It isn't the second date, it's the first. We just give the guys who don't really impress us a second chance because maybe, just maybe, he was nervous or something. If things don't get better, the second date is it. We act nice because we have been taught since childhood not to disturb the male ego, so we play nice. You just won't get a third date if we're still not impressed, but we don't know how to say, "no thanks" bluntly, so we waffle and just fade away.

I didn't get the sense this was a reluctant second date. On the contrary, she seemed very enthusiastic. The date was three hours long and ended because she had to pick up her son. Obviously I don't know for sure. But I've been doing this longer than I care to admit. But if I had to guess, and I am, something she thought of later spooked her.

It wasn't about saying 'no thank you'. On the contrary she was being clear on how she wanted to proceed from this point forward. I'm not being argumentative. I'm just recalling things that have left me rather confused. But that's how dating works these days it seems.

why is it ok for a woman to fade away and not a man?

It's not O.K for anyone to fade. I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

1. I agree, it's the 2nd date that yields a go/no go decision. Although suddenly I am making this call on date #1, because I am more clear about what I want.

2. I also agree that she may have expected you to follow up, even though it was her turn. Sometimes, I lose track of whose turn it is, and also I am sexist: I put more of a burden on the man to express interest in the beginning. I don't think it's right so I've been teaching myself different habits. After decades of learning to follow, which wasnt my nature as a teen/young adult, following became a habit I didn't notice until recent years.

Sorry, Sportster. Is it still snowing there? I'll be so happy the day you are telling us here about your new girlfriend who is on the same page as you and it's wonderful.

I think dating can just be hard. From what I'm reading here, the impression I get is that unless you really knocked her boots off, she wasn't going to give a strong effort to this dating thing. The weak profile, to start, then the drinking on New Years', etc....I'm not tearing her apart for this, but to me, it says "Meh, take it or leave this whole finding a partner thing, let's just see if it turns out fun, then maybe I'll try a bit". If she was in the state of mind, the slightest push is enough - a bad text, a joke gone wrong. Even on a good day those things early on can make or break sometimes.

I'll chime in with my 2 cents, doubt if it's even worth that much

Interesting theory, about the 2nd date issue. Personally, if I agree to the 2nd date, I'm already sure I am interested in seeing more of the guy, as I don't like to waste my time (or the guys time!) and here where I live, saying "Take care" means "until next time" whereas "goodbye" is more permanent. Interestingly, I have a male friend who thinks when women say "take care" it means goodbye forever, haha. Maybe there's a gender split with that phrase?

Also, I have to disagree with a theory posted above, that someone that wants to take it slow and be friends first, is damaged goods. In my experience, if I don't make it clear from the start that I want to go slow, and become friends, do things together, etc., the guy seems to think sex is on the table (hopefully not literally!) right away. If sex happens too quickly, nothing comes from the relationship. Again, that is only my experience, my humble opinion.

If I am interested in the guy, I will take a risk and be honest about what I want from a relationship. Friendship, companionship, a confidante, and eventually a physical relationship. So it's puzzling to me that she made the effort to be so explicit about what she wanted, if she didn't want to see you again. Like someone else who replied to your post, I do depend on the man to do more of the initiating in the beginning. I would have been puzzled that you didn't ask me on the 3rd date. She did say she wasn't avoiding you; why would she make the effort to say that, if she simply wanted to fade? You don't really have anything to lose by calling her and being blunt with her - ask her if she is truly interested or not. Ask for the truth, no BS. Personally I would find that refreshing. Then again, I do have a crush on you Sportster so I am perhaps, biased.

No matter what - good luck - and thanks for the thoughtful and interesting post!

I'm with mines.

I'm also against this much of a relationship, especially a fledgling one, being based on texting. Texting has gotten out of control as stand-ins for real voice-to-voice conversation, where meaning and inflection come through.

I'm just one woman, so take this with a HUGE pinch of salt.

A very bright woman I'm going to play my own devil's advocate. I fear you may be very correct.

- I make it clear to every man who is interested in me, however captivated or hesitant I am at a first impression, that I want to go slow, that I want to build a friendship. But generally, I don't have to explicitly state that, because the men I'm looking for seem laid back in their approach as well and they are good at reading me on this, so it's implied (this makes him more attractive to me, by the way). So if a man states that he tends to rush or move too fast, that becomes an instant little warning flag to me that we may not be on the same page about how to build intimacy over time, and I also worry that he's got an anxious/desperate streak in him. Or he's just impatient to get to a goal. Either way, it feels like I'm going to have to slow him down, and it's not good when that happens, because it's lopsided. If he tells me I'll have to slow him down (even as a joke and light-heartedly), I see the truth in that and it's clear he's already running ahead of me. In the right situation, these things aren't usually articulated, because you're in sync, and if they are, it's a mutual wish.

Don't know what to say. Up until this point I had been matching her pace, and her communications. We seemed entirely in synch. And I believed and internalized a desire to go slow. I was very relieved she wanted to go slow. I told her so, and I told her I was really enjoying how this was going and didn't wish speed it up. The reason I was willing and happy is I tend to find women that want to go too fast. Instinctively I don't think this is a good approach. And I keep proving myself right. So I found myself with a woman that wasn't interested if just jumping. So I saw my selection as a small victory. I managed to get through some crucial milestones without wanting to rush things. I enjoyed the 'normal' pace. I've been on meets with other women I suspect that would like to go slow. But I never succeeded to the point I was at with this one. I believe we had a mutual wish. It was probably just right dumb to inform her how of how I sometimes didn't take my time. I not only wanted to this time, I'm sure as there is a sun in the sky I would have. This was feeling too good and natural to risk by being pushy. I am laid back. If she wanted to go slow. I would do so. In retrospect it might be more accurate to say I tend to find women that go too fast and I don't avoid them. I think what I really meant, is I'm done dating women that go too fast and want find a woman to go slow with. I didn't articulate or express that.

A couple of more points. If she was concerned, it must have came later. And I think a person must judge a situation on balance. My own feeling is, and I am obviously biased, is that if this formed a large part of her impression, it's sad. I won't go into all the positives. Suffice to say, I think on balance I would have been a good partner. And I'm still a little surprised this turned out this way.

The other interesting thing, is I'm not entirely convinced she wanted to go too slow. I think she was wanting to be careful, and rightly so. My sense was the pace would pick up quickly in a short time. Of course I don't know that. That was my intuition. People will often mask areas they are weak in by overcompensating. If I read on a profile 'no drama', that usually means they find themselves constantly getting into drama. Not to entirely second guess her, but he history seems to indicate serial relationships.

- If I feel intuitively that a man has to be told explicitly that I want to start with friendship and going slow, chances are he's the type that needs to be told, and again, that reflects a kind of "date-process" mismatch, so a mismatch of temperaments and priorities, aka, not a positive sign for overall compatibility.

I'm not sure she had to. It seemed more like she was stating a preference and was seeing how I responded to the idea. She was telling me her belief, not telling me how it was going to be. And you'reyh correct I've struggled last summer with a woman that wanted to do friendship first. The difference being she lead with the friends first. Very early. This one seemed more along the lines of her wanting her partner to be a friend as well as a partner. Where the previous one felt like she wanted to try before buy. The current was already more invested and showing more interest. I had no issue with her belief. I was willing to risk failure, instead of not proceeding.

- I don't kiss a man I've only met twice on the second date, not because I have rules about it, but because by its very nature, that's already going too fast (did you initiate that kiss?) Even if I'm attracted, a second date is too fast to have a first kiss, which is an emotional and romantic act for me. A first kiss isn't a casual parting/trial balloon gesture to me, it's supposed to happen when I feel a lot of strong attraction, and a kind of "have my heart set on him" feeling.

During the second walk we had been getting into each other's space. At the end of the date I wanted to kiss her, and she wanted to be kissed. There is no doubt in my mind at all. This kiss was very mutual. I initiated in only that I was the man and lead. I just knew I could and should. It's just something you know, and something women know how to communicate without a word.

- Generally, a second date to me is a chance to verify feelings from a first date; it's not about a man having to be "flawless"; if a second date doesn't go well for me, it's usually that a straw broke the camel's back somewhere along the way. It's a cumulative thing.

 

Having said all this, I do tend to think that you jump the gun, Sportster. You make a lot of assumptions, all the while hyperalyzing (something I'm all too familiar with), so by the time you get to actually interact with the woman, I think you've kind of built up a good deal of tension and that comes out in subtle ways. I also would take a passive aggressive text that early in the game as a red flag (even if she could have been more considerate). I will be honest, passive aggressiveness is a huge turn-off and that soon, it looks like it could be a major MO thing. She might not have gotten over that, and in fact that might be why she laid it out about feeling things out.

 

I really, really think that in ways, there might be a level of anxiety you're projecting that women can sense. It comes out as an over-eager comment, an apology for an over-eager comment, a passive aggressive text, a joke about a passive aggressive text -- this kind of stuff can be a matter of misunderstanding in an established relationship, but as a vibe you're sending out early on, it comes off as warning signals that there is a lot of pressure on your end and maybe a lot of need that's just simmering below the surface. Like you're trying to pull off seeming cool about it all, but it's not really cool. Of course, easy to say since I know some of the things you've gone through which a stranger wouldn't know...but I also think that the scenarios you describe sound like ones where I've been the woman, and it felt ever-so-slightly like The Agenda was leading, running the show. It's just an uncomfortable feeling hard to pin on any one word, act, thing.

 

But it's also possible you shoot your foot by calling the game too soon -- and here you might be doing it again (imo).

There's an unfortunate thread of truth here. With the exception of the text I think I have been fine. Up until this point anyways. And this analysis is post game. During this entire period I didn't analyze anything. I was very relaxed and confident. I felt positive and confident. I think because there was nothing to be anxious about. Things unfolded in a nice stress free way. I looked forward to her texts, but went about my business otherwise.

If her radar is so finely attuned and she bolted at such little provocation at an early nervous text then maybe it's for the best. It wasn't mean. It was sincere. I asked if she sent a text earlier that I may not have received. And since it was almost 11:00 long past what was reasonable I explained if she was blowing me off that it was fine, not to worry, good luck. Of course I felt like a dolt as soon as I sent it. But I don't know her, and I sincerely wanted to wish her well. You also have to remember I could have easily dismissed her. She was very apologetic for passing out and not returning a text as promised. She even wrote her text the next day she would understand if I didn't want to continue. I said 'no problem' I understand. We both talked about the unfortunate events. We both agreed it was best to move on. I was emphatic that I should have texted her asking if she was O.K. and not jump to conclusions. To which she replied she understood, She knows how flaky pof is.

I was eager. I felt I wasn't over-eager. But this is only my own biased judgement. I guess what it all comes down to, is on balance I think I did well. The iron is I was able to do well, because this didn't seem to require anything more that just let things unfold in a natural way.

This is not the first time a woman you find attractive has said she wanted to be friends first. I know you've written this scenario off, but a lot of women want to feel that they are falling in love with someone based on trust, with sparks being the byproduct of that. You might have a shot at these women, but in your haste, you kind of try to gauge things, make some assumptions and shoot your foot instead. Where I live, "take care" can mean bye, or TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF UNTIL WE TALK AGAIN.

I was completely happy and satisfied on how she wanted to proceed. Yes I may have called this too soon. What's done is done. I'm learning.

Most likely, it's a combination of things that happened. A few little hitches too soon when she wants to move slower, her family is ill, she has other prospects to weigh. It's not about "the second date". It's about "the whole picture of my life and how well does this feeling for this man, and the way he makes me feel, sit in relation to everything else."

I thought I made her feel well. On how our last walk she again said she wouldn't have blamed me for moving on and would accept it. She then clarified that she would have been very disappointed. She said something along the lines of "you're an awesome guy".

I am going to follow up with her someday. I'm curious, and I think it will provide me with some valuable feedback.

Thanks for the excellent post TOV. I fear you may be right about a lot of it, and I just have a lot more work to do. But eh, I did pretty good. I'm pleased that I seem to have my woman picker working. I just need to continue to improve and throw away some of this useless dating anxiety.

Sorry, Sportster. Is it still snowing there? I'll be so happy the day you are telling us here about your new girlfriend who is on the same page as you and it's wonderful.

 

I think dating can just be hard. From what I'm reading here, the impression I get is that unless you really knocked her boots off, she wasn't going to give a strong effort to this dating thing. The weak profile, to start, then the drinking on New Years', etc....I'm not tearing her apart for this, but to me, it says "Meh, take it or leave this whole finding a partner thing, let's just see if it turns out fun, then maybe I'll try a bit". If she was in the state of mind, the slightest push is enough - a bad text, a joke gone wrong. Even on a good day those things early on can make or break sometimes.

It stopped and the streets are clean. I was able to get out today. Cleared my head. Think I'm turning the corner on this one.

It's sad that we seem to be so dismissive early in the dating game. We are usually nervous and more inclined to slip up. I don't know what it's like being a woman. But for this man it feels like trying to sneak up on a deer. One false or sudden move, and they leap away never to be heard from again.

I'll chime in with my 2 cents, doubt if it's even worth that much

 

Interesting theory, about the 2nd date issue. Personally, if I agree to the 2nd date, I'm already sure I am interested in seeing more of the guy, as I don't like to waste my time (or the guys time!) and here where I live, saying "Take care" means "until next time" whereas "goodbye" is more permanent. Interestingly, I have a male friend who thinks when women say "take care" it means goodbye forever, haha. Maybe there's a gender split with that phrase?

 

Also, I have to disagree with a theory posted above, that someone that wants to take it slow and be friends first, is damaged goods. In my experience, if I don't make it clear from the start that I want to go slow, and become friends, do things together, etc., the guy seems to think sex is on the table (hopefully not literally!) right away. If sex happens too quickly, nothing comes from the relationship. Again, that is only my experience, my humble opinion.

 

If I am interested in the guy, I will take a risk and be honest about what I want from a relationship. Friendship, companionship, a confidante, and eventually a physical relationship. So it's puzzling to me that she made the effort to be so explicit about what she wanted, if she didn't want to see you again. Like someone else who replied to your post, I do depend on the man to do more of the initiating in the beginning. I would have been puzzled that you didn't ask me on the 3rd date. She did say she wasn't avoiding you; why would she make the effort to say that, if she simply wanted to fade? You don't really have anything to lose by calling her and being blunt with her - ask her if she is truly interested or not. Ask for the truth, no BS. Personally I would find that refreshing. Then again, I do have a crush on you Sportster so I am perhaps, biased.

 

No matter what - good luck - and thanks for the thoughtful and interesting post!

I loves you too mines

I think you're on the same page as me. I think if the date was only going mediocre she would have been inclined just to go home and think about it. I don't think she would have been compelled to start laying down the next steps.

I'm torn toward what TOV suggested about me blowing it with that text, and me misreading the situation and not texting her. I felt like I was kind of in a dilemma. I wanted to give all the time she needed with her dad. But I risked the trail going cold if I didn't text her. And I decided that trying to straddle the two would be indecisive. So I made a decision and stuck with it.

None of this foolishness would get in our way