Soon_tobex

Today's been a roller coast day. I'll spare the details and boil it down to what I think is the essense: She doesn't love me romantically (I heard the collective "DUH" from you people!!!). Never has. Never will. She actually does care for me in her own wacky way. I'm not a complete idiot. There have been lots of good times we've shared. She blames me for everything because she won't (can't?) admit that she unfairly married me to begin with. Follow this logic: She herself says she has NEVER lied; she's a 100% HONEST person. Ok, let's accept that at face value. She has also clearly said that she's NEVER loved me. Now, I think most people would agree it's NOT HONEST to marry someone you don't love. She knows deep down that it was false for her to marry me but she married me nonetheless. But wait, her world is built around being right and honest. So she won't/can't admit that she contributed to our situation and pushes the blame elsewhere - on me. She's collected all my indiscretions over the past 20 years, which to a woman who LOVED her husband, wouldn't amount to ANYTHING, and points to them as reasons for our situation. Oddly on the night before our wedding we had a HUGE blowout which I never understood. Until just now. Maybe it was her crazy way of trying to back out of something she knew was unfair. Why then did she marry me? Well that piece to the puzzle had actually been turned over many years ago - I just didn't know where it fit. Until just now. She once told me that her mother thought that I'd "make something of myself, someday." i.e. I'd be relatively successful. Wifey desperately wanted OUT of a very unhappy parental home and she wanted to be a mother. And maybe she thought she'd grow to love me. Or maybe she never took her thoughts that far. At any rate, I was the best of the lot. [*]She's scared to death of what her life will be without my income although she'd NEVER admit that. [*]She'd like to hang on somehow someway until the kids are gone at which time she'll feel less responsible for them All of this doesn't really explain her "get out" last winter. My guess: she's unhappy (again with the "Duhhs"??) and feels somewhat powerless. And I'm sure I have a quirk or two. But mostly she's afraid. Anger and Fear are opposite sides of the same coin. She expresses Fear through Anger. She's afraid of what will happen to her. She has no friends, no family with whom she associates. She'll have her kids forever but they will soon have their own lives to lead. Me? I'm not worried about me. I'll never be lonely even if I am alone. None of this is an answer. But at least I understand the question finally.

I've been reading a pretty good book: "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work", by Gottman. One quote really hit close to home: "Fondness and admiration are two of the most crucial elements in a rewarding and long-lasting romance. Although happily married couples may feel driven to distraction at times by their partner's personality flaws, they still feel that the person they married is worthy of honor and respect. When this sense is completely missing from a marriage, the relationship cannot be revived."

Up and Down: Someone recently told me that the old adage "Winners never quit and Quitters never win" is wrong. Just plain wrong. Winners DO quit. They KNOW when a situation is not winnable and they quit. The reason they ARE winners is because they can see that they are failing and will fail at a particular game. They thereforeeee quit, save their energy, muster their resources, avoid unnecessary injury and enter the next game. Some people (yours truly???) don't recognize that they are in an unwinnable situation and they keep throwing more and more troops into battle. Good for you for recognizing the battle couldn't be won. You quit and you won. Hope: I know. I know! I'm getting there. 2 days ago I was ready to pack my bags. Today she was nice as pie and I immediately wonder "has she changed??" Of course not, you idiot. Head smack.

I went to a counselor today. Alone. And in secret. I had previously mentioned to my wife that I was thinking about going and she really squatted all over the idea. So I went in secret and I'm glad I did. 60 minutes and a LOT of stuff came pouring out of me. And when I was done, the counselor said: "You want to live. And laugh. And Love. You are a tall, attractive, successful guy who SHOULD live, laugh, and love. You are reaching a point in your life where you can begin to reap the fruit of your labors. It should be fun and easy and fulfilling. But not all spouses want the same things. And not all people can maneuver through life with the requisite skills to be happy and joyous. Some people recognize their deficiencies and fix them; some people try to fix them and fail. And some people never recognize their deficiencies." She said: "What do you get from your wife?" I answered: "I don't know." She: "Does she love you?" I: "I don't know." She: "Did she ever love you?" I: "Honestly, I don't know." She: "That's a fair answer. Do you love her?" I: "Yes. But for many years I feel as though I've been aiming my love at her but it's as though she is an open window through which the light of my love dissipates out in the dark night. I want her window to be a mirror to reflect my love. To magnify it. To make it even brighter." I thought that was pretty eloquent. The counselor seemed to think so too because she reached for a tissue to dab at her eyes and then she said: "You know this probably can't be fixed? It COULD be fixed but it would require tremendous effort, honesty, and objectivity from both of you." I: "But I'm no angel. I'm broken and I'm to blame for some of the damage." She: "But you are here fixing the damage." 85 bucks to hear what I knew already. 85 bucks to hear again what many of you have already said. To hear what another counselor told me about 8 years ago. Best c-note I ever broke. On the way home I spoke with my brother. I'm sure he's really tired of me bawling on the phone. He knows much of the story but I filled him in on some of the more private details to which he said: "If any person ever said and did some of that stuff, I'd have left on the spot." I: "I know you would have. And I probably should have. But we've got 3 kids and 20 years." He: "All the more reason for her not to say and do those things." Huh. I'd never considered THAT perspective. And then he had my roaring in laughter. He suggested that should I ever actually break free I'd should be required to wear a "Warning" sign around my neck. Heaven help the woman who may choose to date me. She'd better hold on tight for the ride of her life. When I got home, a comfy "normal" family meal was preceded and succeeded by some subtle and hurtful comments from the wife. Example: I've not been feeling well the last 36 hours or so and my wife actually blames ME for getting sick. I overheard my son say: "Hey mom, isn't it odd that all the men in the family aren't feeling well." She: "YOU have allergies. Your brother has a sinus infection. He (meaning me) just has germs." True my oldest isn't sick per se, he does have certain allergies. But how does she know that my other son has a 'sinus infection' when he has the exact same symptoms as I do? When I came in the door she made a comment: "He (meaning me) needs to stay far away." Not: Hey honey, how are you feeling? Not: Take 2 aspirin and go to bed. Later in the evening, everyone was wrapping up homework and my middle son, who is a huge procrastinator, was lagging. Both the wife and I were trying to help him finish his essay. It was late. We were all tired. And I offered a suggestion and she said: "Look. There are too many cooks in the kitchen. Why don't you go upstairs." I felt like saying: "screwyou"

Just started reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Interesting book. Very interesting. I see a lot of me there and I hate what I see. Just had a sad, tearful, angry fight with the Mrs. We spent the whole day together. A lovely day, fine weather, working together, puttering around the yard. Did a whole bunch of stuff she wanted and a few things she didn't even know I'd noticed. Brought home some pizza (a fav of hers). Overall nice day with the kids, etc in these the waning days of summer. After dinner, I invited her for a walk. She said yes and invited all the kids (fine, although I was kinda hoping for just the two of us). Twisted story made short - she got so mad at me that she turned around and went home. The kids just stood and watched as she walked away from us and couldn't believe that she acted the way she did. We continued on our walk but there was a pall cast over the stroll (even though the kids periodically made statements that she so over reacts and can't believe she did that)... I get home and normally I'd try to "fix it". Screw it. I came in and told her I thought her actions were way out of line. Which led to a fight. And her crying. And her saying that she can't do this anymore. We have to do something before the Holidays (ie get divorced) Etc, etc. I got a little too needy at that point (reference the No More Nice Guy book) but quit before my typical effort to try to wrap it all up with a bow before we end the conversation. The more I write and read here on ENA (and other places), the more I see both sides of our relationship. The mere FACT that I'm writing here is a bit of a catch 22. I am somewhat Passive Aggressive AND she's something (not sure what, but it may not matter). I can only work on me. I've been missing something very important for a LONG time in my marriage. A very long time - in fact: it may never have been there. And, to some degree (large or small, I don't know), my PA has exacerbated 'our' problem. I want to be loved overtly and she doesn't. I don't know if I caused her to view me the way she does OR if she has always viewed me this way OR if she knows no other view. Doesn't really matter. I can only work on me. In the last few months, several people have said, in dramatically different situations: "You are a nice guy". Which kinda got me thinking about nice guys finishing last, etc. Even my mother said that I should look hard at how I try to meet my own needs and desires. She felt I was not being successful getting what I wanted in my personal life and that I should look hard at why that was. 45 years old, and mom is still learnin me. Being nice all the time is deadly to a relationship.

Wow. And I thought I could write! I really appreciate the insights Leggy. Over the past 6 months I've swung from dumping a 20 year marriage to jumping off a bridge. On any given day either seems a reasonable fix!! Where to begin.... I am somewhat P/A. I get that. I do. Let me add some color to your Flags that may change some from Red to Yellow or even Green. And then we can see where we go next? Both statements are true - she takes care of a tremendous amount around the house. AND I do more than "most other guys". Understand this: pretty much the 'only' thing we do is home improvement so there's plenty of time to DO home improvement. This past weekend I constructed a lovely (her words) trellis to conceal the undercarriage of our back porch. We have an old house, so I did it in a style and fashion complementary to the house (ie I didn't slap some cheap Home Depot stuff up). She suggested ONCE that a trellis would be nice and I did it for her. Just believe me: my buddies look at both her and me like we are NUTS. Sawdust and I are intimate friends. Suggested New Flag color: GREEN Ok, I'll give you this one to a degree. Sometimes she's waaaaaay off the mark (and embarrassingly so. Citation: Screaming at the electrician because she didn't think he was working fast enough. Suggest New Flag color: amber I reserve the right to remain silent. Wait. I have something to say! On average, over the last 15 years, we've been intimate about 3 times a year. 3 times. She's never, ever initiated intimacy. Ever. I've been shot down hundreds of times for those 45 times. Hundreds. She has said that she "never will initiate intimacy. Ever." We haven't danced in over a decade. Hasn't kissed me on the lips in longer. I'm not abnormal for wanting this stuff. Doesn't excuse the EA. But more than anything else, I miss a warm kiss and a close whisper. Still: Red. Fine. The only thing I can figure out that she likes is gardening. I'll buy her a wheelbarrow. * * *? I've been married 20 years are you telling me I should just completely forget about ever seeing her in something sexy? Chit. That's why number 3 above happened. Isn't there a little freakin middle ground here? How about I buy her a wheelbarrow and SHE once (JUST ONCE) wears something sexy to bed?! I thought marriage was a partnership? I thought it meant doing for each other? What precisely does she do for ME? Answer that, please. Yellow Maybe she is? She is unbelievably focused on 'the rules'. ANYBODY who doesn't follow the rules is WRONG. Citation: I just got a new car. In our state you need front and rear license plates. This car didn't have the front bracket. On FRIDAY, I got the plates and installed the rear plate (the front bracket is on order). She screamed at me (f-bombs flying) cause I should have thought ahead and ordered the bracket beforehand. My view: sorry, I didn't think ahead. I've got 1,500 employees and 3 great kids and I spent the weekend building YOUR lattice. I didn't get to it. I KNOW it's the law but the likelihood of me getting a ticket is remote and maybe she has nothing better to think about but I freakin do. Sorry. Blue (that's yellow and green). Don't buy this much. Sorry. I've asked before for "the list". Told her I'm a list-kinda-guy. Heck I make lists of lists. Her response: if you really cared you would just KNOW what needs to be done. Thanks honey. And it seems to be always and only about work around the house. SHE LIKES TO WORK around the house. That's cool. I do NOT "always" wait until she's ripsnorting mad. Sometimes I do cause sometimes I don't want to DO this anymore. When does she do for me? Yardwork - it's kinda all she does - and i'm not being mean, just factual. She doesn't want me to hire someone cause it's what SHE does. It's what gives her purpose and she enjoys it. In a heartbeat I'd hire someone if she wanted to 'do something else'. In my fantasies, she lets me hire a gardener (for one week) and she enjoys a day at a spa. She has never (and will never) enjoy a day at a spa. She doesn't find that enjoyable. And yes I cannot understand her. I do want a woman who will come home with her nails done and rested (occasionally). She has never ever done this and never ever will. It is her CHOICE to bust her butt and to vacuum up the table crumbs before they hit the floor. Her CHOICE. She could choose to do other things. She could choose to have friends, to go to school, to do charity work, to get a job, to whatever. She chooses this. Fine. Does that mean that i must also ALWAYS choose it? I want to take her away for a romantic weekend. After 20 years of me busting my butt making a living AND doing a whoooole bunch of stuff to support her choice, don't you think, by now, I've earned something in return? Like: "Sure, take me to NYC for a play"? But she doesn't LIKE that. Well I don't LIKE doing yardwork all the time, but I do it. When does she say: "I don't like a play, but I'll do it for and with you cause I love you"? Soon

No offense taken! She DEFINITELY sulks like a child and I feed into it. Problem is she also is very, very stubborn and resolute. When she doesn't get her way, she can easily go days, weeks, months sulking. She has never, ever said "I'm sorry, I was wrong, I was an idiot" about ANYTHING. I capitulate to her because I can't stand the long periods of guilt she throws at me. I know I perpetuate the problem. I know, I know. But she's realllllly good at not buckling (and I'm more of a "life's too short to be so miserable over silly little things so let's kiss and make-up" kinda guy). Said another way: I buckle easily. Maybe I just rationalize my buckling in my mind but, I dunno, the stuff that winds her up seems to me to be such small potatoes. Let me be blunt. She hasn't worked outside the home in 14 years. Our kids are well on the way to becoming fine, upstanding adults. They are in grades 8 and 11. While she does an AMAZING job around the house, it is HER CHOICE to stay home. I make plenty of money where she can stay home and cut the grass, paint the garage, tend to the lovely gardens OR she could get a "real job" OR she could do charity work OR she could join a garden club OR go to school OR whatever she wants. She chooses to have no friends, no social life, nothing. She chooses to work around the house - and does a great job. I have no complaints about what she does and I'm happy that she seems to be happy doing it. But... She has alllll day to ruminate on the smallest of details. All day to think about that drip in the upstairs bathroom. All day to think about how it's taking me a little bit longer than she'd like to finish a given task. I have a busy day filled with other things. Filled with people, conversations, email, conference calls, etc. etc. Frankly I don't remember 1/2 the things I do in a day. I love what I do - it's invigorating and challenging and...fun. And when I get home, she sulks and treats me badly because she wants to eat at 5:00pm but I rarely make it home by then. My opinion: essentially nobody who has a job is home and seated for dinner by 5. She just doesn't live in the 'real world'. We are both in our mid 40's. Some people change. Some people grow, others shrink. Some evolve, some devolve. Most people really don't change much. They are who they are. She is who she is. There were some things long ago that I really liked about her: she had long blond hair, a little red sports car, and a sexy French tip manicure. I thought that those things indicated a girl who was fun, a bit daring, somewhat edgy, a little sexy. Maybe 20 years is playing tricks on me, but looking back I don't know if she was those things really. She certainly isn't those things now. I will always walk on eggshells with her. While we aren't openly discussing divorce, she really isn't happy. Many, many weeks ago she said "You'd probably be a good match for 99% of the women out there." At the time, I took that as an insult. I interpreted that comment to mean that I wasn't a good match for her. But I've been thinking about that and it occurs to me that if the vast majority of women would find me to be a good match, but she doesn't, then she's the abnormal one, not me. The definition of normal is: "what most people do". I'm not saying that "normal" is right for everyone or that "normal" should force someone to change who they are. All I'm saying is that I'm tired of walking on eggshells - cause she's not normal. A few days ago, after we'd had a nice few days together, I came into the den to find her and one of our kids watching TV. Playfully I squeezed myself onto the couch between them to watch TV. The 3 of us, squished together, shoulders touching. After a few moments, my wife says: could you move over please? I said: I'm not sure I could move any closer. She: i meant, move the OTHER way. Me: feeling unloved and hurt, slid over a bit. A few moments later, my son came in and my wife patted her lap and said "Here, sit here." He did and for 20 minutes she rubbed his back while his nearly 6' 150lb frame crushed her lap. I gotta tell you, that really crushed me. I didn't show it, but c'mon. And that type of thing happens a lot. But apparently 99% of the women out there wouldn't mind their husband slipping down on the couch next to them to watch a little TV? When I come home from work she almost never, ever says "Hi". She very frequently doesn't even look at me. Me? I always say "Hi" and try to get a response. When the kids come home from school, she runs. Literally RUNS to meet them and lavishes them with greetings. Our kids are teenagers and she runs to them like they are 1st graders getting off the bus for the first time. Of course, I have no problem with her loving our children. But tell me why she can't say hello to me?? What have I done to be such a bad guy? WHY am I having such a tough time with this??????

Don't know. I'm thinking that I'm going to have some fun for the rest of the summer with the kids. Then when they go back: I'm having a chat with the Mrs. Something along the lines of "I love you very deeply but this ain't workin for me" She'll never believe she has any fault in our relationship (that in and of itself is reason enough for me to say to heck with this "relationship"). When I pull that pin from the grenade, it can't be replaced. It really boils down to: do I pull the pin now, or wait the 5 years until my youngest is in college and then pull the pin. I've heard so many opinions on which is better. It just wracks my gut to imagine my kids doing their homework without me. I'm much better able to imagine them in college and "on their own" and then us divorcing. Advice is always welcome.

Just writing. It helps. Been less than a month since my ENA entry and I'm sad and ashamed at how naive was my last post. Nothing is different in our relationship. Nothing is better. I can slog through 5 more years, but I really don't want to. She will never be a fun, charming, spontaneous, happy, loving, intimate woman. She never will. We just got back from a week visiting her parents (I refuse to call it a vacation). She is exactly, EXACTLY like her mother and I am staring down the barrel of my future. Her parents live alone, far away, NO friends, NO social life, NO fun, NEVER do anything all because her mother is not a fun, charming, spontaneous, happy, loving, intimate woman. She never was. And her father is pathetic (my opinion) for putting up with it. For a week I watched her parents and I saw VERY brief flashes of mutual happiness almost completely obscured by illogical, irrational, and unbelievable friction all because her mother is the epitome of glass-half-empty. And through it all my wife said time and again that, while she loves her mom and dad, she couldn't wait to get home and get away them. All I could think was: She has NO insight that she is just like her mother and that we are just like her parents and going home only makes it even more painfully obvious (to ME) that after 24 years of knowing my wife, I should know she'll never change. Nor will I. Like I said..just writing. It helps.

The pendulum has swung back towards "our normal" state. She is back in the bedroom (and we've even, you know .... lolol). I haven't (and don't intend) to tell her about 'the other woman'. I didn't 'do' anything and I agree with Hope above. Our situation has gotten 'ok'. We aren't working on anything, cause she doesn't 'work' on such things. I've decided on this strategy: I'm going to do what makes me happy within the marriage. I'm not going to be a jerk, but if I want to go places and she doesn't, then I'm going without her. I will focus on 'us' doing stuff, but I'm not going to be bound by her way-too-stringent view of the world. My youngest will be in college in 5 years. I'm going to stay the course till then at which point I'll evaluate my life and my relationship. I'll live life to the fullest over the ensuing 5 years and decide in 5 years if the rest of my life can be fulfilling with her. I'm not sure she will become somebody different but 'something' will happen when the kids are gone cause she will have then lost her only real purpose in life - taking care of the children. I'm tired of worrying about her. I'm going to start taking care of me. The current 'new normal' state, is very acceptable. It's calm. It's productive. It's stable. Hell, I'm even having sex. It's NOT warm, loving, and overly joyous - but it's never been. And if history is any indicator, we will have severe episodes over the next 5 years. I am going to stay for the kids. I think it's best for them to have me buffer their mom as necessary. Not sure if this is a success story! But none of us in this family are ready for a divorce - which maybe is a sign that all of us are willing to make it better. No Longer Soon To Be Ex

Me again. I've successfully made things even worse. Help. After 6 months of the Mrs. and I not talking much and her sleeping in the spare room on and off and both of us seeing lawyers and lots of stress... we had a very cleansing conversation about 3 weeks ago. She never said she was sorry, but in her own way she did say it. The last 3 weeks have been very good. Actually had sex 3 times. Wow. That is more than we'd had in the prior 2 years. As much as I know our relationship has issues, there is a tremendous amount of good stuff... I don't want a divorce. I love her. I love our kids. I love what we've accomplished. Here's the problem: back in late Dec/Jan, I hired a consultant (yes a woman). Didn't meet her (she lives 3 hours away). She and I spoke many times on the phone and exchanged emails ... all business. A few months ago, as the project was wrapping up, we scheduled a meeting. Through very innocent conversation we both learned that each was struggling w/ their marriages. Over the ensuing weeks, our conversations got more frequent, personal, and 'inappropriate'. I met her one other time. Nothing physical happened. But we clearly both would have liked it to have. After my wife and I had our conversation, I told this other woman that I couldn't talk with her anymore. Trouble is her husband found out she was talking to someone... and has threatened to call my wife unless this woman and I discontinue conversation - which we have. But he's also threatened to call my wife if his wife leaves him. And she probably will. Theirs is a long story (involving alleged adultery on his part). So if she leaves simply to move on with her life, my life may get destroyed. I want to tell my wife. I owe her the truth. Given my wife's extreme view on 'the rules' and what is right, I'm not sure how she'll take this news. I'd like to think she'll ultimately appreciate the truth... but I fear it will be 'the last straw'. Do I tell her?

I'm so tired. My eyes hurt. I'm done. I've got some meetings on Monday and Tuesday, so, on Wednesday, I'm going to offer to move out. This is going to be the hardest thing I've ever done. We've got such great kids and they are going to be crushed. I'm pretty sure they'll make it through - they are smart, good kids and hopefully old enough to manage this. I'm a lot older and I'm not sure I can manage it! We are just hurting each other and there is no realistic hope here. She has no intention on being introspective, no desire to seek outside help and says over and over that I'm 100% to blame. I can't live with this. I can forgive; she never will. In 17 years we've never been out alone, never a dinner alone, a weekend away. She won't. Says: "we could have done that when we were younger, but you were too busy" I say: "I was busy working and going to school and we were busy making a family and why can't we go NOW?" And she says: "I have no desire" Too much collateral damage.

Hey all... I know I've gone offline for a while. Nothing really different except that I have to make a decision. But that's not really different, is it?

Rough weekend. Glad it's Monday and I can go to work. The more I read, the more convinced I am that she suffers from OCPD. Thanks to you guys, I finally have that 'diagnosis' as the reason to cling to for her actions. It doesn't justify her actions, but at least I understand them. Over the past 20 years, the woman that I still love has gone from 90% what I wanted (I was and am ok with 90%. Heck I'm not 90%!), to 10%. I believe it is consuming her slowly. A couple of months ago we were watching a family videos from 15 years ago... she was so warm and loving then. Now, she rarely smiles. She blames me for what she is. Yesterday she said she wants to sell the house and move far away (from me, with the kids). Today we may be making an appointment with a divorce mediator. Cheers, soon

Hey everybody. How y'all doing? Today is already proving to be a tough one - things are slowly corkscrewing into the ground. Just had a shouting match. Same ground, covered again. She said she wants to go to a mediator before we hire attorneys. I think this will be our first official step towards divorce. I don't want a divorce. I don't want this to continue. I wish she'd go with me to a therapist. She has issues; I have issues. Together we should be able to help each other. That's what life is about. Helping one another. She won't help me. Or herself.