CheerfulSprocket

Me too!! And if he has a lazy eye, floppy hair, and wire-rim glasses, I'm a total goner! Spro

No, you are not a loser! I'm sure that if you want, and make yourself available, to find a partner, you'll eventually meet a wonderful person who will find you just as wonderful. And rather than fulfilling your fears that she'll look down on you for not yet having experienced some things in life, she'll be honored and charmed that you are sharing them with her first. And don't forget, when you do end up kissing, hugging, etc someone special, it will also be her first time doing those with you too. She'll be nervous too - no matter what experience she's had with someone else. Don't worry about it - you're fabulous! Spro

Well, I think much of what you write is true though I think that it is appropriate and healthy to have some expectations, just not "unrealistic" ones. So that's the area of misunderstanding that you've observed. What is "unrealistic" to you is not to another - as we've seen on this board many times, many people find it realistic or reasonable that interested people will make their interest known usually through some overt action. Here in the US, esp in less urban areas, there appears to be a cultural bias that assumes that the man, if interested, makes the first move. So in fact, from this perspective the expectation that an interested man will make some sort of romantic gesture towards the woman is not an unrealistic expectation at all. I'm not saying I agree with this and I do think that it is changing, but in my experience, it's still pretty common. Spro

Cnotes, Obviously I disagree with you on many points. Not all, but some. First, I responded to the OP's anger issue. I think in this situation, it is not appropriate for him to be expressing rage at his wife because she won't take him back. If you read over my posts again you will notice that I was saying that it's not unreasonable (and it doesn't make her a bad person) to see cheating as a deal-breaker. Whether you think that is valid for YOU is not the point - there are OTHER people (just check out some of the other posts on this board) who find this to be a relationship deal-breaker. She could be one of them. Second, if you read over my posts again, I encouraged him to try to work things out with her, but if she's not willing, that's her right - we don't know anything more about her or their relationship than what he's posted. And there probably is a lot more behind the scenes. So let's not just assume that she's been waiting to bolt all along. It could be that that's the case, but it could be otherwise and I was trying to give him another perspective on why she might have been unwilling to try this time. Given that he's professed to not having a clue really about why she won't take him back, I was trying to give him some other possibilities of why she might not having been willing to try. Third, I don't know where you get the impression that I have no compassion for his kids. You are so off the mark here, it's not even amusing. In fact, it is sometimes the MOST compassionate thing to do to admit that the relationship is not right and to move forward positively (which is what my advice was all about) and create a better one for everyone, including obviously the kids. Fourth, despite your caveat that you are not trying to be insulting in your post to me, nevertheless, the tone of your post is entirely disrespectful in my opinion. We disagree but it is not appropriate that you should ask about my personal life or impliedly request my personal "qualifications" to be posting here. That is disturbing and, in fact, insulting. More so since my opinion pretty much echoes that of many others here. Why are you not requesting their personal qualifications as well? Indeed, in a response to my first post, you even stated that "You're right on about everything. I'd like to re-iterate that your point #3 really resonates with me." Nothing has changed in what I've been saying, but somehow you've now decided that I'm now inflexible and bitter. If you disagree with my advice, you are more than welcome to insert your own. Please do not engage in personal attacks (ie calling me bitter) just because my opinion differs from yours. Thanks. Spro

Well Aminae, I must respectfully disagree with you. I most certainly do believe that an adulterer may, in fact, be completely and solely responsible for the break-up of a marriage. If there are problems, adultery is not the answer - work it out, don't cheat. Cheating is, understandably, a deal-breaker for many. Spro

The fact that you blame her (for not taking you back, for wanting to sell joint property, etc), while mentioning that your manic episode was the reason you might have cheated, indicates to me that you are not taking 100 percent responsibility for what you've done. You are not taking responsibility for your actions, in my opinion, because you keep saying that you know you cheated, but it's HER fault that the family has been ripped apart (ie, you blame her for not forgiving you). In my opinion, taking responsibility means that you acknowledge your part in the situation and accept the consequences. You can try your best to make things up with her, but in the end, taking responsibility means that you can't be angry with her if she makes choices that you disagree with. I understand you have guilt and regret. You wouldn't be human if you didn't in this case. It's a credit to you that you're trying to understand at a deeper level. I think if you REALLY take responsibility, and realize that there were probably other factors involved which make it too late for a reconciliation now, it might go a long way to easing your feelings of anger and betrayal. It would be a terrible shame if you let your anger destroy whatever's left and possibly ruin the chances for a positive relationship with her in the future. Spro

You know, I wasn't going to post anymore on this topic, but I just wanted to point out again that despite your firm belief that is really misplaced, and appalling, actually. The decision to leave and tear apart your family is 100% YOUR doing. The fact that you continue to blame everyone/thing but yourself is the reason you cannot move on. I've said it before and I'll say it again, what makes you think she wasn't already making an effort to stay in the marriage for the kids all along before you had your affair? Maybe (in my opinion, probably) the affair was the end trigger, not the beginning or middle. The last straw. Also you have no right to complain that she's seeking to protect her legal interests at this point. You want her to extend to you a gracious forgiving hand, but there's no reason why she should. Also, there are hundreds of women who get divorced and get completely shafted in the process - so good for her that she's looking out for her interests. Clearly, she feels she can't rely on you to do that for her - maybe she's doing all she can now because she doesn't trust you not to screw her over financially and in divorce proceedings. Anyway, again, I encourage you to take some personal responsibility and move on productively in the future. Things will get better. Spro

Oh, it was just pointed out that the other relationship lasted 7 weeks, not months. Sorry about that - I somehow got it that it was going on for months. Ack! Doesn't change my advice however. Again, good luck to you and keep moving forward! Spro

So I am in agreement with most of the posters here - you've made a big mistake and it's very admirable that you're making positive changes in your life. I totally support that and hope you continue to move forward. Because it seems to bother you so much that your wife didn't want to pursue any kind of attempt at reconciliation, I just want to maybe bring up some ideas of why. Let's break it down: 1. You cheated. A bright-line, deal-breaker for most people I know, including myself. As noted in another post, for a lot of people, it's a measure of a person's self-respect and self-love to not accept this in one's life. Seems completely valid to me. 2. You cheated for a LONG time with HER FRIEND. Adds an additional layer of hurt, insult, disrespect, and distrust. 3. Maybe the reason that your wife doesn't want to try reconciliation is because in addition to the cheating, there were other things going on your relationship that she wasn't happy about and this was the last straw. I have to admit, to me, your posts come off as very self-absorbed with an "I'm the victim here" attitude and sense of entitlement - YOU cheated for 7 months with her friend, but you're complaining about how angry you are that she won't take you back, that the lawyer fees are draining you, that you need to get therapy but can't afford it, that you have limits on how/when you can see your kids, that you have to live with your parents. All these things that you're complaining about are due directly and wholly to your actions. You have no right to any expectation of anything different, in my opinion. 4. Maybe she disagreed with your definition of love. You say, if she really loved you, she would try to work things out, and because she didn't, you are angry and upset and question her love for you. However, this goes back to number 3 above - why is it always about you? Why isn't it completely valid for her to think, gee, my husband cheated on me, which indicates that he doesn't love me in the way that I value love - because if he really loved me, he wouldn't cheat on me for 7 months with my friend. See numbers 1 and 2 above. And I really hope you don't take this as post-hoc personal attack on you - I'm trying to give you feedback so that you can maybe get some more clarity on the situation and move forward positively. You've got to do what you can, in the best way possible, to mend the fences with your wife. But if she's not willing than you have to respect that choice and find another way to be with her in the future since she's the mother of your children. Plus, you need to work this out in the best way possible, to show your kids how to live a respectful and honorable life. You know? I think the fact that you're here and asking for help and trying your best to increase self-awareness is a great thing, and if nothing else, despite your losses, this is a gain in your life. Spro

Oh yes, I hear you too. I have such bad dry patches in the winter that I've even had to go to the doctor! Bad bad bad! It's worse lately because I've been using Retin-A and it makes the skin everywhere super sensitive for me. Anyway, so here's what has worked for me: 1. I try to go as long as possible without shaving 2. Shave right at the end of the shower! 3. I use the Mach 3 with shaving cream that has aloe or vitamin E - anything more or less is too much for my skin 4. Don't press too hard when shaving - I used to press a little harder because then I would get a closer shave and not get stubble for longer 5. Pat the legs dry (don't rub vigorously) and immediately put lotion on. Nivea works well for me, but it can be a little slimy sometimes. But the number one thing that helped me is what Belladonna mentioned - drinking lots of water!! That made the single biggest difference (and in other areas too). Good luck - hope you feel better! Spro

In my experience, this preference for non-professionally-achieving women has been the case, as a general matter. However, in the subset of men (and women, for that matter) whom I admire, 100% of them have seen achievement, both in and out of the household actually, as a positive and attractive quality! Of course, my subset is limited to less than 10 people. kidding kidding! Spro

Hi RN, Well, glad that you weren't getting upset with me - afterall, I'm trying my best not to judge but to give you some advice. whew! Anyway, from your posts here, in many ways, it sounds like you are still rationalizing and not ready to let go. Which is probably not a surprise to you given that you are here on this site asking for advice. In any event, Again, I ask you, why do you care so much about what/who she loves? It's not relevant to you. First, these two sentences are contradictory - you want her to decide but you know you'll never get the answers hanging around and waiting for her to decide. Second, she's clearly not going to burn her bridges - she'll manipulate the situation to her advantage which is, given your past behavior, to continue to string you along. So I wouldn't expect anything decisive in that way from her. Not surprising because as long as you're still involved in this situation, you won't be open to really connecting with someone. Moreover, you don't just fall in love with someone right away - you have to get to know them and vice versa. Given that there's a getting-to-know-you period, what makes you think a really quality woman would want to get involved with you in any substantive way if she knew you were involved in this situation? I mean, not to be mean or anything, but to be blunt, why should any woman want to be with someone (or even to believe you when you say that you wouldn't betray someone you love) who is actively participating in the worst kind of relationship betrayal? You know what I mean? I think all the posters are in agreement that you need to do the only decent thing you can do for yourself and everyone else by breaking this off immediately. Sprocket

Hey RN, A certain amount of high emotion came through in your past post and I just wanted to be clear that I'm trying to do my best to help you by giving you objective feedback and advice. So that said, I am still confused. It sounds like you are upset because she isn't prioritizing you as highly as you would like. But I repeat, why are you surprised? Of course she's not going to prioritize you - you're the affair, not the primary focus of her life. Clearly, as you acknowledge, that's not going to change. Second, even if YOU don't think she does love her husband or you or whomever, SHE says she does, apparently. It's very possible that her definition of "love" may (and sounds probably like it is) be very different from your definition of love. But it doesn't really matter does it? Why do you care so much about this? Play it out: if she loves her husband and not you, well, there you are. If she loves you and not her husband, you've acknowledged that she's still not going to leave him and make a life with you, so there you are. If she doesn't love either of you, why are you interested in being with her? Third, wanting her to break up so that she can have doubts doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Why would you tolerate a bad situation just so someone else can feel something, which they may or may not. Do you just want her to feel bad or do you want her to have doubts and then come back to you as a higher-priority affair? I don't get it. Besides, if a situation is not working for you, you get out of the situation for YOURSELF. Not for anyone else. Not to mention the fact that if she's got as little conscience as it appears, she probably won't have doubts after breaking it off with you. She'll just do it after she's in a good space (ie got someone else on the side to make her feel better or to fill some void in her life). Anyway, I do hope you'll find some kind of closure about this and be able to move on. Sprocket

I'm not clear on why you should be upset about this now - the fact that she's been having on affair with you is, from the very beginning, her having her cake and eating it too. Maybe you are just now getting enough emotional distance from her to realize what a crappy situation you are in? If so, that is good for you so that you can move on from this and find a more positive relationship in your life. Though, to be honest, from your posts it appears that you are still hanging on and hoping that she'll choose you over her husband. More to the point, I think others had a great point - why wait for her to make the break? I think your response never really addressed that issue, other than to argue why you think it's not possible that she really could love two people. Which, incidentally, is very possible. Just because YOU wouldn't feel that way doesn't mean that she can't. You two are obviously very different people in some respects and the fact that she has been having this affair for so long (and while pregnant!) indicates to me that there's something that this affair fulfills for her. Could be love, could be vanity, could be boredom, could be anything. Who knows. And at this point, does it really matter? She's clearly not going to leave her husband and be with you. The only thing you can do is leave. With as much dignity as possible. Which means YOU make the choice to leave and do it without rancor or hostility. Enough is enough and you need to value yourself. And while I'm here posting, I might just add one more thing. Why would you think that another woman would want to get involved with you if you were still in this affair? I would think another woman would be more interested in you if she knew that while you had made a mistake, you proactively took a role in ending that mistake and moving on. It's not attractive to know that you were in this affair and that the only reason you're not still in it is because she ended it. You know what I mean? In any event, I'm really hopeful for you that you'll find a way out of this to a more healthy and positive situation. You can do it man!! Spro

oh good golly miss molly - I've done it again. Posted to an old thread. *sigh* why do I keep forgetting to check the OP's post date. Sorry I suck so bad. But I'm still sending you good thoughts!! Spro