Shidoshi

It's not pessimism it's "realism". I'm not saying you won't find someone great that you'll connect with, even on a long term basis, but to believe in the "one" person that will be perfect you is just setting yourself up for a huge let down. People change, and so do their attitudes toward the people they care about. You can't predict the when or the why but you can prepare yourself mentally so that you don't idealize people only to have your world come crashing down when they don't live up to your expectations. I see you're only 23 so you may change your mind in the future. Just consider this advice from someone with a bit more experience who once held the same point of view.

I hear you Kev, and I'm not saying you should ignore body language, it's very important. I'm really just saying that you have to "initiate" something to get the ball rolling with women most times. I remember I was walking past a woman who works for the same company I do but in another dept. I made eye contact with her and nodded, and she had this blank stare on her face. She almost looked frustrated/annoyed or something and I figured my subtle greeting was not welcome. On a different day I see her walking in my direction down this hallway and she has this big smile on her face and she actually says "hi, how are you?". I was shocked. Her body language wasn't very welcoming the first time I saw her but it wasn't because she didn't like me or was bothered by me. I later found out that she in fact did like me but I guess she was nervous and/or uncomfortable with it initially. Body language can be very decieving so don't rely solely on it to "confirm" interest. I also think you'd be better off not believing in the popular myth that there exists the "one." Could save you a lot of heartache in the future.

If you want to use these signs as a gauge of interest level you're going to be disappointed. Yes, there are signs (some more obvious then others), but if you rely too much on them you will be lead astray. Some girls are shy and will purposfully try NOT to give you any indication that they like you. Some will flirt and lead you to believe they like you, but they have no intention on taking things any further than flirting. The only sure fire way is to ask them out. This way you can immediately move on if you get rejected. It's a lot more aggravating to build up something in your head because of what you thought were signs of interest only to face the reality that it was in fact "all in your head". If you think someone has an interest in you, don't drag things on for too long, initiate a date. For the most part, this is for guys because women rarely, if ever, make the first move.

I actually think you should leave it be and pursue other girls. I think she's using you for attention. She gave you the old "I'm not looking for a relationship" line, yet you never asked her for a "relationship". All you did was ask her out, and she basically said no. She saw you with another girl and she got jealous. Does that mean you should ask HER out again? You can test the waters if you want by asking her if she wants to hang out as "friends" and see where it goes. I wouldn't straight up ask her out again, I don't think you should. She rejected you the first time and I see no point in giving her the validation she seems to want by asking her out again.

Terminology is important though right? Life does go on, but I figured that goes without saying. I just wanted to emphasize the importance of male/female relationships, and to say that we need each other and we all feel a certain amount of validation from it. It sounds good to say "oh, I don't need anyone to validate myself" but it isn't the whole truth. It's just my description of the men who make the kind of choices you've described, but I know it isn't the full story, hence the exagerration. Also, how could those comments be considered chauvinistic if I'm a man commenting on other men? I thought you'd be referring to other things I've said, now I am confused. If you are referring to men in general then I'd say it's definitely male bashing. I know there are men out there who want really weak women, just like there are women who want abusive men. Are you saying that this is the basis for your argument that these men couldn't handle the "nice, levelheaded, strong women" you speak so highly of? That's why I asked for specifics, the answer you were given is very ambiguous, it leaves a lot of unanswered questions, and is open to misinterpretation. I do understand what you're saying, but I think you're either purposfully (or not) oversimplifying and exagerrating things to portray men a certain way that I find is inaccurate and that's why I responded. That and I'm always up for a good discussion.

Being that we aren't naturally solitary creatures, we don't want to be in relationships, we need to be. The feelings you've described are the result of having your desires to be paired with another person fulfilled to some extent. We don't simply enhance each others lives, we are a necessity. How do you think you'd feel if you went, lets say, 6 years straight without any intimate contact with the opposite sex? We all feel validated in some way when we connect with another person(s). I don't think there's anything wrong with being a feminist (in and of itself), but how would that even compare to someone who's a chauvinist? Feminism isn't the female equivalent of male chauvinism. I asked because you came off that way to me, and there are self proclaimed feminists out there that take things too far, thats all. To say that a guy would leave a woman because she has plans for the future, is intelligent, and can support herself financially (assuming that's what you mean by sane girlfriends), is to me, implying that he is a weak, insecure, individual. Then to say that he would leave this perfectly sane woman to be with a totally dysfunctional woman simply because she strokes his ego, to me, is implying that he is also stupid. I mean, wouldn't he have to be? If the reasons you stated truthfully describe the decisions of the men in question, then I'd say yes...it does. For me, if a woman takes on the characteristics of a man as in assertive/dominant/masculine (I'm sure you're aware that these are precisely the types of behaviors that are attractive to women in men) behavior within the relationship then it would definitely be a turn off. Aside from being capable of taking care of themselves financially, how did the women you're referring to behave in these relationships? I just can't see a guy leaving a beautiful, intelligent, self sufficient woman simply because his ego can't handle her not being some needy mess, there has to be more to it. Confident men don't need women to pretend like they're helpless, in some cases that can actually work against them. You'd be hard pressed to find a decent guy who would leave a good feminine woman just because she can support herself. Seems you never got a direct answer, you came to your own conclusions. In case you're wondering what my beef is, it's that I get tired of hearing all the male bashing that's become more prevalent and excepted these days.

Well, that really didn't answer my question. I also don't think of men and women as enhancments. Men need women just as much as they need us. Are you a feminist by any chance? It seems likely based on the tone of your reply. Are you specifically asking me or is this a rhetorical question? How about you ask these guys directly what they prefer in women, and what exactly turned them off of the women they were with before? Your description of the choices these men make in women is directly related to your opinion of them. How can you say this about them, yet describe them as "good" men, or are you saying they're good, but weak and stupid? I guess I just don't see this phenomenon of good men going after crazy, idiotic, needy women because they can't handle women who "have it together", whatever is meant by that. Now I'm hearing (from other posters) about how some women dumb themselves down for guys. Wow, guys are real idiots aren't they? I mean these guys are so insecure/fragile and oblivious that they don't realize women are patronizing them. I'm aware that this can be the case for some, but it seems to happen often enough (based on the replies I'm reading) to warrant this discussion. Honestly, lets get some examples of this because I'm really curious as to how often this happens and your theories as to why.

The women they were with might have been too much to deal with and/or these guys felt they found the better deal. There's nothing wrong with confident/independent women, but in what way and to what degree are they these things? I have to disagree with this. The women who do this want to change these so called "jerks" and/or simply enjoy the challenge that comes with these types. If the challenge disappears the women usually do also. Men on the other hand, do it usually because the woman is either really attractive to them and/or they feel they can't do any better so they put up with a lot of crazy drama. The motivation isn't the same for both genders. A woman who is as strong and dominant as I am is definitely not attractive in my book. I don't think this is about some men being "stuck" in this mindset. It goes a lot deeper than that.

No one likes to be rejected, but it's a fact of life that most people have to deal with. Look at it like this, you're a good looking female who guys are attracted to so you really have nothing to worry about as far as "options". Now, imagine you were a guy who's been rejected, but rather than having the ability to simply look pretty and attract women, you have to try and overcome any/all insecurities you have and make a concerted effort to approach women and risk rejection every time. That is the life most men have to lead, so consider yourself lucky in that respect.

I guess I see what's going on here but I don't think it's worth all this effort. Then again, I'm not a female. Honestly, and this goes for both genders, if someone truly wants to be in a serious relationship it will show through their actions. Creating scenarios to get a rise out of someone through jealousy may give you the illusion that the other person wants to be with you in a more serious way (depending on how they react), but why would you have to do this in the first place if it's what they've felt all along? Hmmm, I don't think that qualifies you as a player. "Serious, exclusive relationships" is not the way of the player. Leading guys on just means you're a tease and/or an attention seeker. I really dislike women who do that, but I guess you live and learn. Good luck!!

Huh?? Where have I said anything about NOT speaking to someone like a "fellow human being"? Speaking to people you don't know is usually a difficult task for introverts, so I provided some of the methods I've used to overcome this. I don't think you understand my post.

Good post Caldus. I'm more of an introvert myself so I know exactly what you speak of. People (especially in North American culture) often misinterpret "shyness" as meaning your some how weak. Shyness in a person can be the result of low self-esteem, but that isn't always the case. I've gotten into plenty of fights when I was younger because other kids thought I wouldn't be able to handle myself. Man you should've seen the look on some of their faces when I proved them wrong, priceless! In the context of dealing with women it is a bit of a disadvantage, as you've mentioned Cal. I've missed plenty of opportunities because of it, no doubt. I think it's especially hard for people who have always been more introverted to open up to unfamiliar people. However, you have to "condition" yourself to take each interaction with a grain of salt. The ironic part of my situation is that my "indifference" was somehow seen as mysterious to some women and I used it to work in my favor (sometimes), but it really doesn't help if you aren't in a situation where you can actually use it that way. The best method I've found of overcoming this is practice. Talk to women, especially attractive women as it's usually harder to talk to them than women you consider average or unattractive (of course you'll want to talk to all kinds of people, not just women). The simplest way for me is to simply greet them. Start small and work you way up, but don't stop for long periods of time or you'll end up back at square one, atleast that's how it's been for me.

I wouldn't ask her out if I were you, being that you have to "work" with her. It's usually not a good idea to get involved with people you have to work with. Things might not work out or she might feel awkward after you express a romantic interest in her, which can lead to conflicts in the work place. How long are you going to be working with her?

Did you make this decision because you truly want to or do you feel "pressured" to do it? If you enjoy having more long term relationships why not stick with that? Don't get caught up in all the instant gratification that's become such a big influence (in certain countries). I personally don't think women are into ONS's as much as men because there's a certain amount of detachment that needs to be present. If you want to go down that road be prepared for the consequences that come with it.