Christian Life Vs. Secular Life

[Cure of Ars]

I believe that a Christian life is more exciting than a secular life. The first reason is because Christian reality is twice as big as secular reality. The inner spiritual life of having a relationship with Jesus can give meaning and purpose to even the most mundane activities of life. There is a whole dimension that the secularist does not explore.

Another reason that I think the Christina life is more exciting is because it has bigger stakes. The Christian worldview is more risky. Christianity believes in eternal justice. There is a heaven and a hell. Peter Kreeft once said, "Hell and heaven make life serious. Heaven without hell removes the bite from life's drama." Anyone who has gone to Vegas knows that betting nickels gets old fast and in gambling the higher the stakes the more exciting it is.

The highest value that secular society has is to gain pleasure and avoid pain while the highest virtue for the Christian is Faith, Hope, and Charity so that one can gain God. In the long run the Christian ends up beating the secularist at his own game. Look at Christmas for example. Christians try to keep Jesus at the center of Christmas. And by doing this it causes some pain. For example, Catholics do penance and works of charity during the season of advent to get ready for Christmas. But because of this Christmas is that much better and the joy is not in the gifts, food, or atmosphere but in the joy of something greater, Christ. Christians always have something greater in this world because we have something greater in the next. And this is why Christmas without Christ is boring. And it is also why non-active Catholics run to Mass on Christmas. They intuitively know that without Jesus Christmas goes stale. (To bad they miss the boat with this fact when it comes to every day life.) It is also why our society is so depressed and has the suicide rate that it has. Once one reaches the top and gains pleasure and succeeds in avoiding pain one realizes that he/she are still empty and not satisfied. Boredom sets in and after every technique is tried to gain the excitement that a pleasurable activity once had, and this fails, they loose hope. God made use this way on purpose so that we would not get stuck on the creature and search for the creator. Pleasure is good but it is not the ultimate good. We were made for God and we will never be satisfied until we are totally united to Him.

The question is bound to come up, "Why then are a lot of Christians no different than secular people? They are no happier, joyful, or excited than the rest of us." The answer to this is that you need to connect with Jesus for my arguments to be true. You need to let Jesus be in charge and conform your life to him. This is where the Christian life gets scary and exciting but it also where people walk away or just go through the motions.

[Hero_99]

"Why then are a lot of Christians no different than secular people? They are no happier, joyful, or excited than the rest of us?"

Because Christians are no diffrent than secular people. Only they realize the need fort something else to fulfill their lives than what the world has to offer. Except, that it is yet another loophole people use to distract themselves from reality, whether there is a God or not.

I personally don't doubt the existance of a being or other beings similar in intelligence. You can say man was created, but by what? And what created what? And what created that what? and so on...

Either way you can't explain it. You can only acccept that people are here on this earth. No other explanation is necessary.

[mahlina]

I don't want to rip your ideas apart, but it sounds like you are a completely devoted Christian who believes in his/her religion. Good for you!

Coming from a Catholic background, I know that not a lot of them think like you. Sometimes, it seems like people go to church to parade things that they don't have. I know a lot of families and teens who do things that object to the church's values, but continue to go, and act as if they are so innocent. They have a lot of skeletons in their closets, yet they act so self-righteous.

On the other hand, there are secular people who believe in the basic values of humanity, to treat others the way that you want to be treated, and act accordingly.

Some people are more science oriented, and don't believe in God. It doesn't mean that they are bad people, it just means that they are braniacs who have found empirical means of finding answers to life in this physcial world.

Some of them are so kind that they are so protective of endangered species and mother earth.

Secular people are no different than Christians. Take 2 people who are raised in different backgrounds, but have the same values. It doesn't mean that just b/c the other person is not familiar with Jesus, that he/she will burn in hell, and will live a life of pity.

People just have different forms of religion, different beliefs. My belief is, as long as they do not inflict harm on others, then they are worthy of respect regardless if they believe in Jesus or not.

And to add to the whole penance and the Chrsitmas ordeal, it seems like Christmas has lost it's meaning in our capitalist society, it's just another marketing ploy. People are so frantic when it comes to Christmas. They are so worried about what they're going to get, and what they're going to give. Therefore, that's what I mean by you are a very rare, nice, genuine Christian.

Too bad more Christians aren't as devoted as you. I know lots who do a lot of charity work. I think that the world has lost a lot of valueble people like them.

(One more thing, it's kinda off subject, but I really don't like those confession rooms, sometimes I leave it feeling completely uncomfortable with the priests. One of them was a pedofile at my church, and the church just recently dismissed him)

[Down-In-A-Hole]

I have noticed that Cure of Ars is extremely ignorant in some of the posts he makes, including this one. For instance:

And this is why Christmas without Christ is boring.

Give me a break man. In that statement you assume that everyone who isn't a devoted Christian has a boring Christmas. The close-minded attitudes of Christians like Cure of Ars is what turns me off to religion in general.

Also, I would like to thank Mahlina for her post that shows that not all Christians pigeonhole and look down on other types of people that aren't Christian.

[faeriechyld]

Originally Posted by Cure of Ars

I It is also why our society is so depressed and has the suicide rate that it has. Once one reaches the top and gains pleasure and succeeds in avoiding pain one realizes that he/she are still empty and not satisfied. Boredom sets in and after every technique is tried to gain the excitement that a pleasurable activity once had, and this fails, they loose hope. God made use this way on purpose so that we would not get stuck on the creature and search for the creator. Pleasure is good but it is not the ultimate good. We were made for God and we will never be satisfied until we are totally united to Him.

I'm glad that you are so involved in your religion and beliefs, however, I do have some issues with your post from generalizations. This paragraph in particular bothered me. I was suicidal while following the christian religion, I attended church every Sunday, went to camp every summer, and even worked at the camp(which was a christian camp) for an entire summer, but yet still wanted to kill myself. My point is, even though I was a christian, I still lost hope of things and now I am not a christian and no longer suicidal. The only thing I find that I am depressed about is the loss of my mother, but that is to be expected seeing she only died 11 months ago. I do not believe being a christian or not being a christian affected my depression, I believe it was a chemical imbalance in my brain and the fact that I was a young teenager who was afraid of her own shadow and the future. Then I grew up quite a bit and realized that the future was not so bleak. Basing suicide entirely on a secular society is not true and, to be honest, is really not fair. I know other suicidal christians. And no, this is not because we don't/didn't have a "close relationship with Christ." Because I was saved, I accepted Jesus as my personal savior at the camp I went to, but that alone did not help me in my depression for whatever reason.

I would also like to point out that any and all religions give people a sense of hope. That is why we have religions, that is why people believe in such a diversity because not all religions work for every person. You may believe Christianity works for everyone, but the muslim, jew, or buddhist may feel otherwise. And those that do not have any religion may find hope in other aspects of their lives. I don't think believing in a higher power is the only thing that gives you hope, I feel finding a goal and aspiring to achieve it is what really counts in life. It's not when people lose sight of God that they get depressed, it's when they stop dreaming and/or trying to make their lives better.

However, all of this is just my opinion. Thank you for sharing your views though, it is an interesting topic.

[Cure of Ars]

Originally Posted by mahlina

I don't want to rip your ideas apart, but it sounds like you are a completely devoted Christian who believes in his/her religion. Good for you!

Coming from a Catholic background, I know that not a lot of them think like you. Sometimes, it seems like people go to church to parade things that they don't have. I know a lot of families and teens who do things that object to the church's values, but continue to go, and act as if they are so innocent. They have a lot of skeletons in their closets, yet they act so self-righteous.

On the other hand, there are secular people who believe in the basic values of humanity, to treat others the way that you want to be treated, and act accordingly.

Some people are more science oriented, and don't believe in God. It doesn't mean that they are bad people, it just means that they are braniacs who have found empirical means of finding answers to life in this physcial world.

Some of them are so kind that they are so protective of endangered species and mother earth.

Secular people are no different than Christians. Take 2 people who are raised in different backgrounds, but have the same values. It doesn't mean that just b/c the other person is not familiar with Jesus, that he/she will burn in hell, and will live a life of pity.

People just have different forms of religion, different beliefs. My belief is, as long as they do not inflict harm on others, then they are worthy of respect regardless if they believe in Jesus or not.

And to add to the whole penance and the Chrsitmas ordeal, it seems like Christmas has lost it's meaning in our capitalist society, it's just another marketing ploy. People are so frantic when it comes to Christmas. They are so worried about what they're going to get, and what they're going to give. Therefore, that's what I mean by you are a very rare, nice, genuine Christian.

Too bad more Christians aren't as devoted as you. I know lots who do a lot of charity work. I think that the world has lost a lot of valueble people like them.

(One more thing, it's kinda off subject, but I really don't like those confession rooms, sometimes I leave it feeling completely uncomfortable with the priests. One of them was a pedofile at my church, and the church just recently dismissed him)

I agree with a lot of what you say. I think many if not most American Catholics in the past 40 hears have sold out and have become secular. They just keep the name and go through the motions. This is changing though. God is doing some pruning and calling his people back to be faithful. I also agree that there are a lot of good secular people. My post was not to say that secular people are bad but only boring.

The secular viewpoint will never produce a Mother Teresa or Padre Po. It will never produce a saint. Because the secular viewpoint does not draw power from the transcendent so the secular life will never be transcendent. American secular and consumer culture is in trouble. The remedy is saints.

[Cure of Ars]

Originally Posted by faeriechyld

I'm glad that you are so involved in your religion and beliefs, however, I do have some issues with your post from generalizations. This paragraph in particular bothered me. I was suicidal while following the christian religion, I attended church every Sunday, went to camp every summer, and even worked at the camp(which was a christian camp) for an entire summer, but yet still wanted to kill myself. My point is, even though I was a christian, I still lost hope of things and now I am not a christian and no longer suicidal. The only thing I find that I am depressed about is the loss of my mother, but that is to be expected seeing she only died 11 months ago. I do not believe being a christian or not being a christian affected my depression, I believe it was a chemical imbalance in my brain and the fact that I was a young teenager who was afraid of her own shadow and the future. Then I grew up quite a bit and realized that the future was not so bleak. Basing suicide entirely on a secular society is not true and, to be honest, is really not fair. I know other suicidal christians. And no, this is not because we don't/didn't have a "close relationship with Christ." Because I was saved, I accepted Jesus as my personal savior at the camp I went to, but that alone did not help me in my depression for whatever reason.

I would also like to point out that any and all religions give people a sense of hope. That is why we have religions, that is why people believe in such a diversity because not all religions work for every person. You may believe Christianity works for everyone, but the muslim, jew, or buddhist may feel otherwise. And those that do not have any religion may find hope in other aspects of their lives. I don't think believing in a higher power is the only thing that gives you hope, I feel finding a goal and aspiring to achieve it is what really counts in life. It's not when people lose sight of God that they get depressed, it's when they stop dreaming and/or trying to make their lives better.

However, all of this is just my opinion. Thank you for sharing your views though, it is an interesting topic.

I agree that I have made some generalizations to make a point. But if I did not the post would have been 500 pages long and no one would have read it. We agree that religion gives hope. The main point is that secular society is less exciting in the long run. What religion are you so that I am better able to find common ground when talking to you?

Basing suicide entirely on a secular society is not true and, to be honest, is really not fair.

I did not make this generalization. I also did not say that Catholics did not get depressed. Great saints have had depression. St. John of the Cross is an example. Check out his work the Dark Night of the Soul to see how Catholic depression can be turned for something good as apposed to the basic secular depression. I did not say that suicide is entirely secular society's fault. Biology also plays a part. I was just stating the fact that secular cultures have a higher suicide rate because secular society is empty of transcendent meaning. As a Catholic pain and depression can be offered up and united to Christ's suffering for the Church and the entire world (Col 1:24-25). In fact most mystics of other faith traditions do the same type of thing. Secular society does not have the power or perspective to give meaning to pain and suffering for a greater good. It is just viewed as something that sucks and if it can't be avoided that death is a legitimate way out.

I feel finding a goal and aspiring to achieve it is what really counts in life. It's not when people lose sight of God that they get depressed, it's when they stop dreaming and/or trying to make their lives better.

But if achievement, dreams, and goals are the meaning of life and I do not find these things satisfying anymore why not end my life? This is the question that secular society does not have an answer for because they lack something beyond this life and if this world does not satisfy there is no where else to look.

If aspiring to achieve is the highest meaning in life then why do 3 world countries have a lower suicide rate than American culture? America is one of the most goal-oriented societies ever in the history of mankind and it also has one of the highest suicide rates ever. How can this be?

Also please read this post about the 4 levels of happiness. Your meaning of life answer is only at the level 2. Loving friends and family is a better answer to the meaning of life but this also is not the highest level.

http://enotalone.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14174&postdays=0&postorder=asc&sta rt=4

[Nity]

I think that everyone in any subsect of humanity feels the need to explain their life as more exciting, better, whatever. I'm sure that any devoted member of any religion would tell you that their lifestyle was the most exciting and devoted.

Personally, I try not to make those judgment calls about communities of people that I belong to.

[Cure of Ars]

Originally Posted by Nity

I think that everyone in any subsect of humanity feels the need to explain their life as more exciting, better, whatever. I'm sure that any devoted member of any religion would tell you that their lifestyle was the most exciting and devoted.

Personally, I try not to make those judgment calls about communities of people that I belong to.

The argument that I gave is not the best argument that there is. I am not Catholic because it makes for a challinging and exciting life but because it is true. This should be the only reason for following a religous system. The argument can be effective though of getting people past secular consumer culture. My argument is not my religion against other religions but my religion against secularism. I would say that any of the major historic religions would be more exciting than secularism. I am also not saying that there are not parts of secularism that are not good.

[Nity]

And I'm saying that everyone who follows a certain path, be it religious or secular, believes that their chosen path is more [something positive] than the alternatives.

Since you're on a secular path, you obviously believe it's better than the alternatives when, in essence, the only claim that you can make is that it's better for you.

But this isn't a knock against you in any way. It's part of human nature. It only makes sense to believe that the path that you're on is the best.. why else would you have chosen it?

It only becomes a problem when you start making sweeping statements of judgment and assumption by saying that "The path I'm on is more exciting/whatever than the alternatives." I assure you that this just isn't true.