Women, Lying and the Infamous First Date Flake

[yahoo]

After dating for awhile, certain things about female behavior become depressingly apparent, but as a person who's interested in a relationship you've no choice but to soldier on and take your lumps.

This still doesn't necessarily make things easier, but it does make one question the motives of people in general.

Alright. You're a guy, you've gathered your nerve up and asked a woman for a date.....generally after spending some time trying to assess rather ambiguous female "signals" of interest, or lack thereof. You seem to have some things in common and took a chance she might be interested in knowing more about a guy like you.

And to your relief she said yes, and to cement the deal gave you her phone number right away! Things are looking pretty good, right?

Not so fast. As a man, you learn yes means no as often as it means yes, but you get to find out the rude and inconsiderate way. How? Well, you've set the date, agreed to the night, the where and when, and the day of the date you get a phone call (oftentimes you don't get a phone call....she flakes when you call to confirm just before the date), with the 'ol cliched excuse. It generally takes one of three forms:

1) She just doesn't feel very good all of a sudden!

2) Suddenly an extreme emergency has come up and she must immediately help her mother/father/brother/sister/friend with some dire problem....Immediately!

3) Some close relative died! (This is so commonly used that most women usually avoid the obviousness of it and go for the "I'm not feeling well" excuse).

The truthfulness of these statements are impossible for the man to assess, which is why women use them for flaking excuses.

One thing is for certain: In flaking, the woman knows this is a overt, clear signal of disinterest.

But stay tuned, she may say something at the end of the conversation to string you along some more and make it look like she's still interested!

Now, here's the ironic part. You can't productively bring up the point that she mislead you, because if she's flaking she doesn't give a crap that she lied about her interest and strung you along. Lecturing a woman for being a flake and treating you badly just doesn't work. A great many women have done a lot of this, thus their casual dismissal of your feelings. It's a routine. Misleading men and flaking on the first date has probably been practiced by a large percentage of women at various levels of frequency in their dating careers, so it's pretty much a female entitlement program.

If you're irritated that she's flaking on the first date as so very often happens to men, (and men experience first date flaking far more often than women do, for the simple reason the man rarely flakes on first dates because he had to ask for the date in the first place, so of course he's interested) you may at least try to make her a little uncomfortable about such a shallow and disrespectful move.

She: "I'm so sorry, something's come up!"

You, somewhat cynically anticipating the excuse: "Lemme guess.....Sickness, extreme emergency, or dead relative?"

Now, here's a commonality I've noticed a great many times:

Having now put the lie to the impression that she was actually interested in going out with you, she's just warming up in the "hand out some more mendacity" derby.

After delivering her likely untruthful excuse, often the flaker will deliver a line to the effect of......"Sorry I couldn't make it! Next time you go out, let me know!"

Now, this implies she's giving an honest excuse, is really sorry she can't make it, and she wants you to ask her out again!

In the light of actual experience, and with men I've discussed this with, this is not likely. Having just proved she wasn't interested, it's now much easier to follow an untruth with yet another one by implying she's still interested. This is done because it makes the excuse sound more truthful.

Almost invariably, the vast majority of the time, when you take her at her word and try again at some later date, she either doesn't return your calls or flakes on you. Again.

What was that saying? "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." By taking a flaker at her word, you've been shamed. It's an ego trip thing for these women, I'm sure. They've got plenty of men after them already, and your attempting to set a date with her again is simply boosting her ego and affirming her desirability, which is what many women crave.

In our normal human interactions that don't involve dating, flaking is seen as an extremely undesirable behavior, and flaky people will be passed over in career advancement as flaky behavior is extremely undesirable in any respectful social situation.

At the very least, in most social situations, the "flaker" knows they've committed a faux pax and the onus is on them to correct the situation by making up for their obvious social goof, to restore their good standing.

Want to avoid the embarassment of being flaked on twice after having actually believed the woman was still really interested and truly didn't mean to flake?

Put her feet to the fire right then and there, when she's still on the phone, and immediately after she expresses some degree of regret that she couldn't make it and tells you to "call her sometime" as women so often do. Make no mistake.....she didn't say "call me sometime" because she wants you to call. She said it to make herself feel better about the fact that she's flaking on you by offering a slim ray of hope a date may actually happen. She probably doesn't really want you to call her again, and will likely flake on any subsequent contact. Right away, say something to this effect:

"Okay, it's too bad you couldn't make it. Next Saturday night is open. How about the same plans at the same time on Saturday?"

Now's she's on the spot. She has to give you an answer in the affirmative, or she's done. If she doesn't agree to this, express that it was nice to meet her, say something to the effect of "have a nice life" and end the conversation.

In this way you immediately attempt to gauge her true interest, and you give her no opportunity to avoid the issue another day. You deal with it that very moment, and you give yourself the best opportunity to resolve the issue as fairly and unemotionally as you can.

Most likely, in flaking on any first date, a woman's excuses are pretty much BS. They know flaking is a sure sign of disinterest on their part. Just play your own role like a man in not letting them manipulate you further by demanding a level of accountability from them.

She darn well better make her interest immediately apparent right after flaking with a sure future committment to a date. If she does not, remove her from consideration and move on.

[i.need.help]

just the way people are. as much as i dislike being flaked on, i have also done it to other people in the past with various excuses. i dont see it as a bad thing anymore. actually if a girl isnt interested it's better that she flakes. when she flakes she's saving you money since most likely you will offer to pay for the date.

[shes2smart]

Men flake plenty, too.

But seein' as how you probably aren't lookin' to date men, it's likely you don't realize that.

Neither gender has the market cornered on poor/inconsiderate/rude behavior or lying. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can get that chip off your shoulder. Because, frankly, your post comes across as if you don't like or respect women very much.

[yahoo]

"Don't shut yourself off to the possibility of being with someone who does actually like you just because, like everyone in the whole wide world, you've encountered a few bad'uns."

I'm not. I'm suggesting how to separate the "bad'uns" from the "good'uns." So the guy may not have to further waste his time on disrespectful, uninterested women.

The "good'uns" will not be lost if the man follows my suggestions about managing the end of the conversation during which she flakes if she really is sorry about flaking.....please reread it.

I'm speaking about first date flaking and specific situations men encounter.

Ladies, please keep this on topic and don't dilute the issue with irrelevant comparisons.

I'm simply advising men how to avoid wasting their time.

Men experience far, far more first date flaking than women do, for the reasons given in the post. The advice is for men. If you don't care for the advice, please suggest another way for men to avoid flaky first date women and contribute something of value to the discussion.

If you want to discuss flaking men and their motives, start another thread of your own, please.

And for whatever it's worth, I've dated far more women than you have, and have knowledge of how they act. I dare say you have not unless you're into women as well. Just because a man is stating this does not make it untrue.....rather the contrary, in fact.

We've been there.

Women flake like mad on first dates. Objecting to this post will not change that fact. The idea is to help men determine which women are interested and which are not, so they may avoid wasting their time and having false hopes.

[beautiful_love]

You know, women are socialised in such a way that sometimes makes it difficult for them to be direct. A lot of women are afraid of being seen as rude. It's hard to be called a "b***" if you are trying to be direct, and then if you attempt to let someone down lightly, you get called a flake. I think many women feel a lot of pressure as to what is the best way to get their feelings across without being judged to be this way or that.

Sometimes, if a man asks out a woman and she does not feel certain yet, she may take his number or set a date, but in truth, she might want to think about it for awhile. She doesn't necessarily mean to lead a man on or be flakey if she cancels. And if she says something to the effect of, "Maybe we can go out another time" she may only be trying to be gentle, or soften the blow.

I have never sat around thinking of ways to mislead a man. I have been accused of leading a person on simply because I was nice and polite to someone, no dates set or plans made for anything. When I have tried to be firm and direct, I have had people accuse me of being a "b***" It's really tough if you are a sensitive person like I am, because you don't like to hurt people, and yet you want to assert yourself without being mean.

If you can allow that women can change their minds, and then be open to the women who do go out on a date with you, it might all come into balance. Maybe it is best not to assume women are all out to deceive men and toy with them---Sure, it may be frustrating to have a woman cancel a date, but that just leaves room in your life for a woman who is ready to date.

I don't know......I'm just rambling, but try not to think of women as all one in the same with devious motives. A lot of us are really trying to be good, thoughtful and respectful people to all of our fellow men.

[yahoo]

I also disagree with the statement that the poster doesn't see flaking as a bad thing.

Flaking is never a good thing. If it were the norm, we would have a dysfunctional society. It's best that we encourage truthful behavior and expect that people follow through with their commitments.

[yahoo]

You claim that you never intend to mislead a man, but clearly, the practical effect is that you very much do mislead them. Flaking is very much more disrespectful than saying "no" to a date. Leading some guy on is "saving their feelings?" Flaking with a lame excuse on the first date is "respectful?"

How?

So how about saying no when you mean no, and not yes?

Women flaking on the first date is so very common that the practical effect is that men can't take for granted that women want to go out with us, even when they've said yes to a first date.

That's pretty sad.

And the excuses for first date flaking really do sound as lame to us men as they do to you. Men have had it happen many times. Believe me, I'd actually welcome a flake that was somewhat creative.

By stringing out the rejection in a rather cruel way, you do men no favors.

And yes, apparently, a man needed to tell you this, so maybe I have you women figured out better than you know.

Trying to make fun of my statement by making a ridiculous comment makes the point no less relevant, and the advice is just as sound, even though the topic of first date flaking makes women uncomfortable. It should make women uncomfortable, really. It's rather cruel.

[Slagar]

Yahoo, you sound pretty frustrated right now, and I can totally understand.

I've had this done to me, but I've also done it to girls too. I think it's most people's natural tendency to treat others nicely, and assume the best in them - which makes it very difficult to flat out say to a person "sorry, I'm not interested", because it might hurt.
That's why people (and especially jerks) who persist in asking a girl out on the spot are more likely to receive the straight truth - because the flake sort of realises "hey he's being pretty pushy; I'm not interested - NO."

Especially the case where you don't know the person, and don't find them immediately attractive, it's not easy to gather whether you want to see more of them or not. You want to give the person a chance, give them the benefit of the doubt, yet you don't know them at all. Even if a really smoking fine girl came up to me and asked me out, I'd probably be stuck somewhat with this dilemma.

As for myself, generally I try to get to know a person at least before I ask them out, as opposed to asking out a stranger I find attractive. That way I can gauge my own interest, as well as hers - if she seems to be reciprocating then I'll take it further.

It's social pressure that a girl can't really ask a guy out. So in a way girls are trapped in this situation. I can see both sides of this argument; I certainly don't blame women for it - but I would prefer to be told the truth from the getgo

[jenny_mcs]

If this is happening to you a lot, then you should examine your behavior. I mean, I can see it happening to someone every once in a while, because some people are just rude, but it sounds like it happens to you all the time.

On this thread you come across as bitter, angry, and defensive. Maybe this is the vibe you are giving off in real life?

[yahoo]

No, this is in response to some discussions we've had on the frequency with which men experience first date flaking.

Google the topic of "women flaking on the first date" and those that are ignorant of the topic may become better informed of how often this happens. Men experience quite frequent frustration with this very issue. This forum should be about helping those with dating difficulties rather than adhering to a format that is politically correct.

People exhibit cruel behavior in dating. This is an example.

Attempts to discount the issue won't make first date flaking by women happen any less often. Sorry I can't make it sound more gentle.....it's not a gentle sort of behavior, despite some misconceptions that this is somehow easier than telling the truth.

The truth is, women do this to make themselves feel less discomfort in rejecting the man......and in so doing, they actually make the man feel more discomfort in being more disrespectfully rejected.

I am not helping the dating forum here by failing to point this out. If you don't like that I say it's disrespectful (but uncontestably true), make sure you don't do it.

The best response is to deal with it decisively, not let the issue be strung out further (the rejection has been strung out enough already) and move on.

This is how to do it.