Am I Right to be Sad and Hurt???

HeavensAbove · 09-25-2008, 11:07 AM

I guess I'm looking for understanding. I know my husband adores me, but he has a problem with low self-esteem that manifests itself in wanting to attract and talk to women online all day.

He calls them friends, and I'm therefore not supposed to object, but gets very close to them and many of them flirt with him which he seems to enjoy. How it makes me feel is left out, jealous and that I'm not enough to fill his heart.

I know he had a big problem with this before, when he was with his cow of an ex wife, but since making a new start with me he's changed a lot, and I don't want to nit pick...BUT...

I have to say there have been some incidents since we married that hurt me deeply and removed my trust, like getting drunk and staying up all night on the comp (wet loo paper on the desk, he said he'd been crying...hmmm) and another night I got up to find him webcamming with some girl I knew he was getting really close to...the result was he flew into a temper, blamed ME for "accusing him" and flounced off out of the house.

Bit by bit, after each incident, he's learned how much I get hurt, and it's been scaled down (as far as I know) BUT now perhaps I'm over-sensitive, but I just don't feel I trust him any more, especially as he spends all day in chatrooms, or IM programs and all his friends are young attractive women.

I know he's deleted a lot of the archives and so on, which to my mind suggests secrecy. And I know for a fact some of these women come on to him, and although he tells them no, he still flirts back, enjoys their attention and carries on with them. I fear it will get back to what it did before - he says it won't but how do I know? Another drunk night and who knows; I already feel nervous if I go out anywhere about what he might be getting up to.

I HATE being suspicious because that's no way to live, but I feel down and miserable today after yet another women falling for him.

I've let him have a lot of rope, and don't suffocate him or make demands, and I believe in personal freedom. But if ever I have anybody to talk to who happens to be male, he goes totally nuts with me. If I am in a chatroom he reads everything we are saying over my shoulder and objects to anything even slightly "off", and his jealousy knows no bounds when it comes to ME having friends, yet he's supposed to be chatting women up all day and that's okay.

There's no way I can demand that he stops chatting to women, he'd never do it and he just gets very angry and defensive about it, which I hate. Also, I'm not allowed to voice my suspicions because it's all "innocent friendship" and that would be to question his faithfulness. So I just feel depressed, and fume inwardly.

Sometimes it's all I can do to touch him or hold his hand, I feel so furious and hurt. Is there no way to resolve this?

Zampotne · 09-25-2008, 11:13 AM

I don't think so. I would never live like this.

duchesstigerlily · 09-25-2008, 11:46 AM

The only way you can resolve this is if he eventually recognizes that what he is doing is not right and stops the behavior altogether. If he has issues with self-esteem and self-worth then perhaps some counselling is in order. You shouldnt have to suffer because of how he chooses to deal with his insecurities and he won't stop until he, himself, can acknowledge that his behavior is not appropriate in the context of a marriage...*especially* if it is hurting you and causing you to lose trust in him.

Victoria66 · 09-25-2008, 12:03 PM

Yes, you entirely do have a reason to be sad and hurt. In fact I would sad and hurt his butt right out the door. I am going to be a little rough here but I hope you see the intent is for you to see the truth and not to hurt you. Here it goes, he is being a PIG and you are making excuses and allowances for him and being a doormat. He needs to seek therapy and get himself under control. Tell him this is NOT acceptable. If he was my husband and I told him I did not like it and he kept at it, he would not be in my house too long.

icarus27 · 09-25-2008, 12:10 PM

I had an ex-gf who had crushingly low self-esteem. In her case, it manifested itself in her trying to get attention from other men in public places like clubs - and becoming increasingly dissatisfied with me, when I said I wasn't comfortable with that.

I see the same kind of game at work - the attention-seeker turns it around so that *you* are the one "to blame" for stifling them. And amongst the debris, you start to question yourself as in the title of your post "am I right to be sad and hurt?"

You are entitled to feel this way because of his behaviour. He is not right to be doing what he's doing.

tangi39 · 09-25-2008, 12:24 PM

[QUOTE=HeavensAbove;2742763]

I know he had a big problem with this before, when he was with his cow of an ex wife, but since making a new start with me he's changed a lot, and I don't want to nit pick...BUT...

I have to say there have been some incidents since we married that hurt me deeply and removed my trust, like getting drunk and staying up all night on the comp (wet loo paper on the desk, he said he'd been crying...hmmm) and another night I got up to find him webcamming with some girl I knew he was getting really close to...the result was he flew into a temper, blamed ME for "accusing him" and flounced off out of the house.
QUOTE]

Maybe you are feeling what his ex wife went through.
So many people blame their EX until you spend time with them behind closed doors and realize there may be a REAL problem here. Based on his reactions, it sounds like he is one who blames instead of owning up- which is probably a repeititive behavior from his last marriage.
Most people don't change. I DO think it's possible, but I don't think people are very likely to change bad habits until THEY want to- and it doesn't seem like he wants to.
For you or anyone.

Not to sound harsh here -
I know you want to believe he was making a new start with you and perhaps he was on some level- but since he had this problem in his previous marriage- It doesn't sound much like he wanted to start anew as just finding someone else willing to put up with his crap. (Or blame)
Scaling back is not quitting. And unless you keep watch 24/7, there's no way to know that's actually happening anyway.

It sounds like you two have trust issues. You need to set boundaries together on what it and what is not acceptable.
Unless you're in a open marriage- Flirting with other women is NOT acceptable. Online or otherwise. You shouldn't have to worry about who he may be "falling in love with " this week.
If he cares about you and your relationship- He needs to stop all this online flirtation immediately, and the two of you need to seek out counseling.

Remember- Until HE really wants to change, he won't.
It sounds like he is addicted at this point, and he is the one who has to put it to a stop.
If he won't- Will you still want to remain married ?

girl68 · 09-25-2008, 02:09 PM

There's no way I can demand that he stops chatting to women, he'd never do it and he just gets very angry and defensive about it, which I hate. Also, I'm not allowed to voice my suspicions because it's all "innocent friendship" and that would be to question his faithfulness. So I just feel depressed, and fume inwardly

So you feel like he's cheating. If not exactly cheating- crossing the line. You think you have no voice to say "hey, I don't like when you stay up all night an chat to beautiful women- you calim to be 'friends'?" Defend your FEELINGS.

Not only would I call him out on him being faithful, I would call him out on his commitment to YOU, his WIFE. Being faithful in my books (as it would seem yours too) does not simply entail keeping his * * * * in his pants. It entails much more than that. It entails NOT chatting up sexy women with webcams at all hours of the night. I wouldn't care if he slept with them or not. This would absolutely not be acceptable in my books.

Your answer is simple, you either accept the fact he's not cheating or at least beleive he isn't and deal with the fact that he will chat, flirt and maybe more with these cyber buddies. Or you can call him out once and for all. Tell him how you feel, stick up for your feelings. Tell him that even though he may not have gone out and had sex, he is crossing the line and that is UNACCEPTABLE. He either stops, (or you 2 find an agreeable middle ground- no web cams, no chating after 10pm, only when I'm home, or whatever you'll get bullied if you opt for a compramise here) or you're leaving. Tell him you think flirting is crossing the line.

If his response is screaming at you for accusing him, tell him yes, you are. I do believe you are lying, and flirting behind my back which to me IS cheating. If he refuses to give up these friends you either deal with it and stop complaining or leave. Would you really want to be with a man who disrrespects your feelings? If his response is defense and lying I'd suspect he's hiding much more than an "innocent friendship" Stick up for yourself!

HeavensAbove · 09-26-2008, 11:18 AM

You have all voiced my feelings and fears - thank you for that, even though it hurts because I have to face up to the truth. I suppose because I've seen some changes, a progressive scaling back of activities, I keep going and hoping. What I REALLY look for is that he truly from HIS heart doesn't NEED all this flirtation and admiration of himself.

And that is something I cannot achieve FOR him, either by confrontation or demands or explanation or whatever, as useful as those are.

At times when he's confronted and over reacts, ie "I will never go on the computer again, I will sell it, I won't speak to anyone", and so on...I've said to him, "look, I don't want you to do anything just for ME, but for yourself". What good is forcing him?

The second point is this: as you said, either this must get resolved or I have to think about leaving. But leaving isn't an option in reality. That is the ultimate answer to irreconcilable problems, but at this stage it's not conceivable for either of us - first because there is a foundation of true love, second we are both just healing from previous very bad relationships, third because there is hope...so to pull out the big guns isn't my answer, however tempting that may seem...

That's my dilemma, because if you remove the final option, then you are left with "discussions" that just begin with his righteous indignation and protests of innocence (so I doubt myself) and when he says "I never do anything wrong", the only way I can disprove him conclusively is to admit the thing I don't want him to know... that I have been spying on him. When you're trying to build trust, admitting that is not a good way to go. But if I do push on and pursue it, it ends in him going off in a temper feeling "criticised" - he walks out of the house.

In any case, I have learned he's a VERY good liar, because on one occasion I caught him in the very act (cybering online) and made a screen dump of it, then calmly asked him what he was doing -- usual protestations of "nothing" and I said "will you SWEAR to me, before GOD?" and he said, "yes, I swear before God I was doing nothing wrong" ...and that is when I showed him the picture.

After that he was more CAREFUL, and reined it in a bit, but if the need and the desire and drive is still in him, won't he just take advantage of my absence? (We are usually in the same house, same room). I'm afraid of leaving him alone, just to have a sleep during the day for instance, because at those times, if he's not chatting on MSN to one of his "friends", he's looking at porn videos on the Net. (Yet our sex life is satisfying to him he says, and he wants nobody but me.)

So how can I confront him, if all I get is (and this is consistent behaviour on his part) "I never say or do anything wrong, I'd never hurt you, it's all their fault, I promise you, I swear, I vow, why don't you believe me!!!"...and so on and I know it's bullplop but the only way I can contradict him is with hard evidence which I can only have in a way I detest, which is by going behind his back...so it's all an unholy mess you see.

Sorry to be so negative, but counselling is way beyond our means. He's had a few personal sessions via the doctor, but not near enough to address these core issues, of anger and loss of self-esteem. I want to be supportive of his needs, not come down on him like a ton of bricks like other people in the past - after all I do love him - but this pain inside is affecting my mood and my feelings daily.

Believe me, I HAVE calmly and kindly explained. What happened one time was, he folded his arms over his chest, his lips tightened and after I'd finished he said "but that makes me sound like a complete a-hole" (it's always about the way HE feels) and he made it plain the matter ended there - he was being criticised and it was hurting him!!! Supposedly I'm "exaggerating" and he isn't like that at all (in his own eyes).

Any real hardhitting discussions between us end up (through his fear of disapproval) turning into world war three with him exaggerating every little thing I say to massive proportions, totally out of context, so that I have to give up before he has a nervous breakdown LOL.

This sounds like I'm turning away from every bit of wisdom and advice, and I'm not. I have to consider the penalties against MY wellbeing too, because I'm not made of stone. If bringing up this subject only leads to MORE pain and distress, because on top of the hurt I already feel, now I've got my husband into a rage, and it achieves little to nothing --- well after a while I learn to bottle it up and say nothing. (except to yourselves, where I can at least get some support)

HeavensAbove · 09-26-2008, 11:22 AM

Oh sorry one more thing: yes, at first I listened to his stories of how his wife and grown-up children acted and was horrified. Now that I have been with him and gone through some of the same circumstances I take it with a pinch of salt. His ex WAS a * * * * * BUT, at times I do think "yeah, I know how she feels!!"

girl68 · 09-26-2008, 02:35 PM

You're complaining you've tried everything. So if you tried everything and still nothing your options are simple.

1) Stay and ACCEPT it (so stop complaining and just deal with it- it's not going to change)

2) Leave. People leave relationships when it is exhausted. Sometimes despite our hardest efforts it is still not enough. Think about this: "someitmes love isn't enough".

We've suggested everything, you've done it all- what's left? NOTHING. Deal with it as is, or leave.

09-25-2008, 11:07 AM	#1
HeavensAbove Offline Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 14	Am I Right to be Sad and Hurt??? I guess I'm looking for understanding. I know my husband adores me, but he has a problem with low self-esteem that manifests itself in wanting to attract and talk to women online all day. He calls them friends, and I'm therefore not supposed to object, but gets very close to them and many of them flirt with him which he seems to enjoy. How it makes me feel is left out, jealous and that I'm not enough to fill his heart. I know he had a big problem with this before, when he was with his cow of an ex wife, but since making a new start with me he's changed a lot, and I don't want to nit pick...BUT... I have to say there have been some incidents since we married that hurt me deeply and removed my trust, like getting drunk and staying up all night on the comp (wet loo paper on the desk, he said he'd been crying...hmmm) and another night I got up to find him webcamming with some girl I knew he was getting really close to...the result was he flew into a temper, blamed ME for "accusing him" and flounced off out of the house. Bit by bit, after each incident, he's learned how much I get hurt, and it's been scaled down (as far as I know) BUT now perhaps I'm over-sensitive, but I just don't feel I trust him any more, especially as he spends all day in chatrooms, or IM programs and all his friends are young attractive women. I know he's deleted a lot of the archives and so on, which to my mind suggests secrecy. And I know for a fact some of these women come on to him, and although he tells them no, he still flirts back, enjoys their attention and carries on with them. I fear it will get back to what it did before - he says it won't but how do I know? Another drunk night and who knows; I already feel nervous if I go out anywhere about what he might be getting up to. I HATE being suspicious because that's no way to live, but I feel down and miserable today after yet another women falling for him. I've let him have a lot of rope, and don't suffocate him or make demands, and I believe in personal freedom. But if ever I have anybody to talk to who happens to be male, he goes totally nuts with me. If I am in a chatroom he reads everything we are saying over my shoulder and objects to anything even slightly "off", and his jealousy knows no bounds when it comes to ME having friends, yet he's supposed to be chatting women up all day and that's okay. There's no way I can demand that he stops chatting to women, he'd never do it and he just gets very angry and defensive about it, which I hate. Also, I'm not allowed to voice my suspicions because it's all "innocent friendship" and that would be to question his faithfulness. So I just feel depressed, and fume inwardly. Sometimes it's all I can do to touch him or hold his hand, I feel so furious and hurt. Is there no way to resolve this?

09-25-2008, 12:03 PM	#4
Victoria66 Offline Platinum Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: for now where the CF sends us Gender: Female Age: 43 Posts: 4,600	Yes, you entirely do have a reason to be sad and hurt. In fact I would sad and hurt his butt right out the door. I am going to be a little rough here but I hope you see the intent is for you to see the truth and not to hurt you. Here it goes, he is being a PIG and you are making excuses and allowances for him and being a doormat. He needs to seek therapy and get himself under control. Tell him this is NOT acceptable. If he was my husband and I told him I did not like it and he kept at it, he would not be in my house too long. __________________ ADHD= Attention Dialed into a Higher Dimension. For my Indigo son. Know how to suffer and how to laugh. Mother Teresa If you judge people you have no time to love them. Mother Teresa Run amok empath= the end of little miss nice girl. Tomorrow IS another day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EM7FaOc3Zk What Child Is This.

09-25-2008, 11:13 AM	#2
Zampotne Offline Gold Member Join Date: May 2007 Gender: None Specified Posts: 480	I don't think so. I would never live like this.

09-25-2008, 11:46 AM	#3
duchesstigerlily Offline Bronze Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 203	The only way you can resolve this is if he eventually recognizes that what he is doing is not right and stops the behavior altogether. If he has issues with self-esteem and self-worth then perhaps some counselling is in order. You shouldnt have to suffer because of how he chooses to deal with his insecurities and he won't stop until he, himself, can acknowledge that his behavior is not appropriate in the context of a marriage...especially if it is hurting you and causing you to lose trust in him.

09-25-2008, 12:10 PM	#5
icarus27 Offline Silver Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Reading, UK Gender: Male Age: 31 Posts: 504	I had an ex-gf who had crushingly low self-esteem. In her case, it manifested itself in her trying to get attention from other men in public places like clubs - and becoming increasingly dissatisfied with me, when I said I wasn't comfortable with that. I see the same kind of game at work - the attention-seeker turns it around so that you are the one "to blame" for stifling them. And amongst the debris, you start to question yourself as in the title of your post "am I right to be sad and hurt?" You are entitled to feel this way because of his behaviour. He is not right to be doing what he's doing.

09-25-2008, 12:24 PM	#6
tangi39 Offline Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 925	[QUOTE=HeavensAbove;2742763] I know he had a big problem with this before, when he was with his cow of an ex wife, but since making a new start with me he's changed a lot, and I don't want to nit pick...BUT... I have to say there have been some incidents since we married that hurt me deeply and removed my trust, like getting drunk and staying up all night on the comp (wet loo paper on the desk, he said he'd been crying...hmmm) and another night I got up to find him webcamming with some girl I knew he was getting really close to...the result was he flew into a temper, blamed ME for "accusing him" and flounced off out of the house. QUOTE] Maybe you are feeling what his ex wife went through. So many people blame their EX until you spend time with them behind closed doors and realize there may be a REAL problem here. Based on his reactions, it sounds like he is one who blames instead of owning up- which is probably a repeititive behavior from his last marriage. Most people don't change. I DO think it's possible, but I don't think people are very likely to change bad habits until THEY want to- and it doesn't seem like he wants to. For you or anyone. Not to sound harsh here - I know you want to believe he was making a new start with you and perhaps he was on some level- but since he had this problem in his previous marriage- It doesn't sound much like he wanted to start anew as just finding someone else willing to put up with his crap. (Or blame) Scaling back is not quitting. And unless you keep watch 24/7, there's no way to know that's actually happening anyway. It sounds like you two have trust issues. You need to set boundaries together on what it and what is not acceptable. Unless you're in a open marriage- Flirting with other women is NOT acceptable. Online or otherwise. You shouldn't have to worry about who he may be "falling in love with " this week. If he cares about you and your relationship- He needs to stop all this online flirtation immediately, and the two of you need to seek out counseling. Remember- Until HE really wants to change, he won't. It sounds like he is addicted at this point, and he is the one who has to put it to a stop. If he won't- Will you still want to remain married ?

09-25-2008, 02:09 PM	#7
girl68 Offline Platinum Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Beatutiful Britsh Columbia Gender: Female Age: 25 Posts: 1,485	There's no way I can demand that he stops chatting to women, he'd never do it and he just gets very angry and defensive about it, which I hate. Also, I'm not allowed to voice my suspicions because it's all "innocent friendship" and that would be to question his faithfulness. So I just feel depressed, and fume inwardly So you feel like he's cheating. If not exactly cheating- crossing the line. You think you have no voice to say "hey, I don't like when you stay up all night an chat to beautiful women- you calim to be 'friends'?" Defend your FEELINGS. Not only would I call him out on him being faithful, I would call him out on his commitment to YOU, his WIFE. Being faithful in my books (as it would seem yours too) does not simply entail keeping his * * * * in his pants. It entails much more than that. It entails NOT chatting up sexy women with webcams at all hours of the night. I wouldn't care if he slept with them or not. This would absolutely not be acceptable in my books. Your answer is simple, you either accept the fact he's not cheating or at least beleive he isn't and deal with the fact that he will chat, flirt and maybe more with these cyber buddies. Or you can call him out once and for all. Tell him how you feel, stick up for your feelings. Tell him that even though he may not have gone out and had sex, he is crossing the line and that is UNACCEPTABLE. He either stops, (or you 2 find an agreeable middle ground- no web cams, no chating after 10pm, only when I'm home, or whatever you'll get bullied if you opt for a compramise here) or you're leaving. Tell him you think flirting is crossing the line. If his response is screaming at you for accusing him, tell him yes, you are. I do believe you are lying, and flirting behind my back which to me IS cheating. If he refuses to give up these friends you either deal with it and stop complaining or leave. Would you really want to be with a man who disrrespects your feelings? If his response is defense and lying I'd suspect he's hiding much more than an "innocent friendship" Stick up for yourself!

09-26-2008, 11:18 AM	#8
HeavensAbove Offline Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 14	You have all voiced my feelings and fears - thank you for that, even though it hurts because I have to face up to the truth. I suppose because I've seen some changes, a progressive scaling back of activities, I keep going and hoping. What I REALLY look for is that he truly from HIS heart doesn't NEED all this flirtation and admiration of himself. And that is something I cannot achieve FOR him, either by confrontation or demands or explanation or whatever, as useful as those are. At times when he's confronted and over reacts, ie "I will never go on the computer again, I will sell it, I won't speak to anyone", and so on...I've said to him, "look, I don't want you to do anything just for ME, but for yourself". What good is forcing him? The second point is this: as you said, either this must get resolved or I have to think about leaving. But leaving isn't an option in reality. That is the ultimate answer to irreconcilable problems, but at this stage it's not conceivable for either of us - first because there is a foundation of true love, second we are both just healing from previous very bad relationships, third because there is hope...so to pull out the big guns isn't my answer, however tempting that may seem... That's my dilemma, because if you remove the final option, then you are left with "discussions" that just begin with his righteous indignation and protests of innocence (so I doubt myself) and when he says "I never do anything wrong", the only way I can disprove him conclusively is to admit the thing I don't want him to know... that I have been spying on him. When you're trying to build trust, admitting that is not a good way to go. But if I do push on and pursue it, it ends in him going off in a temper feeling "criticised" - he walks out of the house. In any case, I have learned he's a VERY good liar, because on one occasion I caught him in the very act (cybering online) and made a screen dump of it, then calmly asked him what he was doing -- usual protestations of "nothing" and I said "will you SWEAR to me, before GOD?" and he said, "yes, I swear before God I was doing nothing wrong" ...and that is when I showed him the picture. After that he was more CAREFUL, and reined it in a bit, but if the need and the desire and drive is still in him, won't he just take advantage of my absence? (We are usually in the same house, same room). I'm afraid of leaving him alone, just to have a sleep during the day for instance, because at those times, if he's not chatting on MSN to one of his "friends", he's looking at porn videos on the Net. (Yet our sex life is satisfying to him he says, and he wants nobody but me.) So how can I confront him, if all I get is (and this is consistent behaviour on his part) "I never say or do anything wrong, I'd never hurt you, it's all their fault, I promise you, I swear, I vow, why don't you believe me!!!"...and so on and I know it's bullplop but the only way I can contradict him is with hard evidence which I can only have in a way I detest, which is by going behind his back...so it's all an unholy mess you see. Sorry to be so negative, but counselling is way beyond our means. He's had a few personal sessions via the doctor, but not near enough to address these core issues, of anger and loss of self-esteem. I want to be supportive of his needs, not come down on him like a ton of bricks like other people in the past - after all I do love him - but this pain inside is affecting my mood and my feelings daily. Believe me, I HAVE calmly and kindly explained. What happened one time was, he folded his arms over his chest, his lips tightened and after I'd finished he said "but that makes me sound like a complete a-hole" (it's always about the way HE feels) and he made it plain the matter ended there - he was being criticised and it was hurting him!!! Supposedly I'm "exaggerating" and he isn't like that at all (in his own eyes). Any real hardhitting discussions between us end up (through his fear of disapproval) turning into world war three with him exaggerating every little thing I say to massive proportions, totally out of context, so that I have to give up before he has a nervous breakdown LOL. This sounds like I'm turning away from every bit of wisdom and advice, and I'm not. I have to consider the penalties against MY wellbeing too, because I'm not made of stone. If bringing up this subject only leads to MORE pain and distress, because on top of the hurt I already feel, now I've got my husband into a rage, and it achieves little to nothing --- well after a while I learn to bottle it up and say nothing. (except to yourselves, where I can at least get some support)

09-26-2008, 11:22 AM	#9
HeavensAbove Offline Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 14	Oh sorry one more thing: yes, at first I listened to his stories of how his wife and grown-up children acted and was horrified. Now that I have been with him and gone through some of the same circumstances I take it with a pinch of salt. His ex WAS a * * * * * BUT, at times I do think "yeah, I know how she feels!!"

09-26-2008, 02:35 PM	#10
girl68 Offline Platinum Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Beatutiful Britsh Columbia Gender: Female Age: 25 Posts: 1,485	You're complaining you've tried everything. So if you tried everything and still nothing your options are simple. 1) Stay and ACCEPT it (so stop complaining and just deal with it- it's not going to change) 2) Leave. People leave relationships when it is exhausted. Sometimes despite our hardest efforts it is still not enough. Think about this: "someitmes love isn't enough". We've suggested everything, you've done it all- what's left? NOTHING. Deal with it as is, or leave.