Mother's weapons.. guilt and silence

[Shadows Light]

I'm 41 and a Single Mom. I have two small children ages 9 and 6. And, I'm very fortunate in having a mom who go's out of her way to lend me a helping hand, for which I am very grateful.

Since money is tight, I can't afford to take the kids to latch-key in the morning so that I can get to work on time. My mom who lives near by comes over and takes my kids to school. Again, I am very grateful for her help.

However, Mom can be a pill. And saying so makes me sound ungrateful and ungracious. She's moody and when the mood strikes her, we are all at it's mercy. Anything can set her off, from watching the news in the morning, to a bill collector who is "RIGHTFULLY" calling her to pay on her bills.

For instance, this morning she walked in and "stone walled" all of us. Her face was set in stone and she sat straight up.. eye's unwavering. By her body language you can see she is "perculating" about someting. When I asked her what's wrong, she cooly replied "Why would anything be wrong." When I told her that her body language spoke volumes, she became indignant.

A little alarm bell went off in my head telling me not to get dragged into her drama. Don't allow her mood to ruin your day. And THAT's just a problem. If you don't enter into her drama, it only get's worse. So it seems we're all held hostage by her MOOOD SWINGS. When someone looks sad, don't you ask whats wrong? When someone is angry and you don't know why, wouldn't you ask why???? When you get NO ANSWER... you assume it's gotta be you. And now you have to play "COLUMBO" or "PHYCHIC" and come up with the right answer.

I hate it. I love my mother very much but I hate the drama.

Last summer, I scraped the money together to send my kids to Summer Camp. That way they would be kept busy and my mother would be "KID FREE" for the summer. You'd have thought I'd robbed the bank or committed some major crime. It took me eon's to get through to her that I was trying to make life easier on her as well as the children. Here's the scenario, I get home from work and I get avalanched with all the crimes the kids have committed that day. Amazing, and she raised 3 children? but... to her credit I have to admit she feels she has her hands tied to her back since I don't condone corporal punishment in the form of switches and belts. I don't have alot of money... but I managed to scrimp and save and send the kids to camp. She saw it as a direct hit on her as a care giver. NOT SO. I just wanted everyone to be HAPPY.

With the kids, I know she doesn't agree with my choice of parenting. I do not spank the kids. I choose not to scream at them or use any number of devices that were used on me by both mother and father. I don't blame my parents, they did what they were taught to do with the information they had. I choose to be different. And in choosing to be different, it seems that it's saying "she was a bad parent", Not so... she did the best she could with what she had. I'm just making different choices. My children are GOOD kids. They are well behaved and have good grades. But typical kids under 10 years old. Mom, I think expects them to SIT and watch TV all day. What more could they want?

It's not only about the kids. It's about everything. She doesn't like the way I deal with my "X". I refuse to get into his drama as well. I ignore his barbs, I ignore his antics. I try to rise above and take the high road. She doesn't agree with me. When I ask her "WHAT do you expect me to do?" She tells me I should let him have it and he'd pipe down. I've lived that drama with him for over 18 years, I chose to leave it. I don't want to continue down that path. But, since I won't fight back it seem's I am being judged as being weak, too soft.

I'm in the middle of reading Echart Tolle's book "A New Earth" so I get it. It's all about Ego. Mine. Her's. And I choose not to respond to when her EGO wants to drag me into "HER" private drama. But it's a real downer. It's hard to ignore someone who you love very much when they start acting out and use what I call, "MANIPULATIVE" weapons to bend all to their whimsy.

WHAT TO DO??? WHAT TO DO???

If I talk to her about it, she'll not talk to me for a year. She's done it before. IF I tell her that her silence is abusive.. it will fall on deaf ears. Meanwhile, my children are the spectator's of all of this and picking it all up like little sponges. My 9 year old recently tried to employ the silent treatment on me, I broke her of that notion right quick and in a hurry.

Now what to do what to do about a mother who I love very much but is driving me crazy with her behavior?????

[Gratsy]

I can totally understand your feelings. Sometimes life is simply much better when you don't have parents in your life. Parents have a way of bringing a damper if you allow them to be over involved. Its also somewhat unnatural to have them this involved but considering the circumstances, you essentially need her. Basically you're between a rock and a hard place. You don't have a choice: you have to deal with the difficulties of having a relationship with your mother that is somewhat dependant and somewhat unhealthy considering her issues.
The essential problem here is finances. When you free yourself financially, you'll free yourself from the Shakespearean mess that your mom brings. I'd say that you have to endure her crap for a while until you work towards having utter freedom. What is the fastest way for you to get them in a daycare or find enough financial support? Maybe you can get a cheaper mortgage? I sympathize, b/c your situation is very tough.

[Shadows Light]

Money. It is truly at the root of all evil isn't it?

Getting into a more finacially better situation is a long shot in these
turbulent economic times. It's not as if I go back to school I'll improve
my financial status. I'm a college grad. I just live in an area of the US where major industry has taken a nose dive. Most high paying jobs have moved to warmer climates. That appears to be my only choice but an impossible one to make since my support system is in this area.

Also, the children's father lives in this area and would fight me tooth and nail. I can care less about his feelings on the subject. It's the kids and my mental health I care about more. If I move.... I would give up custody to the kids for ONE MONTH a year during summer break. Suffice it to say, "X" doesn't do well with weekends let alone an entire month. I'd end up paying for "THERAPY" for the kids and myself forever if I made this choice.

Please don't misunderstand me. I love my mother dearly. And other than her quirky moods and manipulations.. we do share a good relationship. Your statement of...sometimes we'd be better off without them, made me smile. There is some truism to it. And yet a part of me feels guilty thinking so because I do love her so much.

My mother is very much mired in the past. Misery loves company and during my divorce she was HERE to pick me up, everyday. Believe me, I needed picking up. I needed that kick in the pant's when the going was tough and I wanted to hide under the covers from the entire world.

When I started coming out of my funk... I recognized what was happening. Mom was reliving her "STORY" through mine. She was reliving her divorce, her drama, she felt all the pain again and again. I pointed this out to her and told her we had to move forward. We had to stop sitting around the "kitchen cauldron" and stirring the manure of our past's. She got it. But she didn't. I think she's formed her identity around that of VICTIM. And it suits her.

I choose NOT to do it. I work hard on not basing my entire being on the event's that brought me to where I am. It's very difficult to do so. It's like being addicted to a drug and kicking a habit. SHE hears me.... but doesn't agree. She wants justice when there is none to be had. She wants revenge... when the best revenge is a LIFE lived well and to the fullest.

Mom has a friend who has been in an abusive relationship for 40 years. Great physical/vebal/emotional abuse is heaped on this woman day after day. I feel sorry for the woman. I pray for her. However, if the woman doesn't help herself... there is NOTHING anyone else can do to help her. The woman comes to my mother with her woe's and then my mother brings the story to me. The stories of yet another WOMAN living in abuse. It hurts. However, I have chosen not to listen anymore. I told her that it was hurtful to me to hear it. It did NO GOOD. If the woman wants help.. if the woman wants to change she would. But the woman obviously identifies herself with being a victem and the shoe fits. Leave it alone. What does mom do???? She gets upset with me because I don't want to participate by listening to the story. It drives me nuts.

Mom get's mired in the past.... or mired in worrying about the future. No matter how many times I tell her that if she's got one foot in the past and one foot in the future she's pee-ing on today... it doesn't click.

I know I've let myself into this situation. And there is NO WAY out. There is no way out without severing relationships. I don't want to sever it.. I want to fix it. And I don't know how to do that.

[Excalibur]

I get completely your position.

You need her assistance, cooperation, involvement - in order to meet your needs and obligations.

You would like her to be gracious, to be cooperative.....and be there for you as needs present.

That'd be realistic if she's financially secure, she has no job, she's a well-adjusted, secure, mature, complete woman in her own right - and she's offering her time, as she can, with the right to refuse without upset internally generated by her alone, or because of the dynamic in which you ask.

But...stand back and evaluate if your mother is a happy, mature, secure, successful, complete woman. Is she generally content with her life, is she the master and commander of her destiny as she perceives it?


if not - you can hardly expect her to be gracious, assisting, and cooperative with a good attitude.

She's not someone who's happy being her...and she feels "obligated" to this situation, because of whoyou are, they are, and the needs within it. So when she perceives that she's nothing but a service....she's going to be "moody" to say the least.

And if she's not free to say no as she perceives it based on how you ask.......as in constantly asking at the last minute as if everything is last minute notice to you.......you're going to get that attitude.

You resent the "need" of her assistance and cooperation. You'd like to be a fiancially secure, personally and professionally successful woman and mother. Instead, you're a financially strapped "single mom" who has little time to be an individual.

Your need....and her need - are in collision.

You might see what you can do about finding alternatives to her being your major provider of tehse services...in exchange forsitting for someone's kids on the weekend or something.

What you don't have is money to offer, but if you manage your time wisely you can barter with your time for services to you but...not with her.

[Shadows Light]

Excaliber, I hear what you're saying.

Last summer, I placed the children in "Summer Camp" and my mother
tossed cookies. She felt it was a waste of money. I moved mountains to convince her it was for the good of all. And it'd give her time to pursue her own interests. She did... somewhat. Gardening. And complaining that her day was empty without the kids.

This fall, my oldest daugther has been chosen to participate in a magnet program which would have her doing the 4rth and 5th grade at the same time. She's an outstanding student. Going through the program would add on to her school day by 1 1/2 hours. No problem. I'll find a way to send my youngest to LATCH KEY after school to avoid having 2 pick ups at the end of the school day. Mom nearly went ballistic.

Same goes for Latch key before school. I'm working the plan, cutting costs and will send them to Latch Key in the fall to avoid the morning drama and mom having to be here.

I'm not ungracious Excaliber. I am grateful for everything mom has done for us. I am grateful for all of her love and help. What I rebel at is the PRICE or toll needs to be paid for it.

If I choose not to participate in gossip... I'm a spoil sport.

If I choose not to let my life slip me by and 'X-husband' bash.. I'm an ungrateful person.

If I choose not to be negative or allow negativity to prevade my entire day.. I'm in the wrong???

You are right that mom isn't well adjusted or secure as she might be. I have encouraged her to pursue her interests, I've encouraged her socially interact.... she can't, or she won't.

Maybe it's a cultural thing, I don't know. I'm 1st generation American, and as progressive as mom is... she's stuck between being a Modern American Woman and Old World Eastern European. She doesn't fit here, and as a divorced woman she no longer fits in her nationality of people. She's been outstrasized (sp?). And she won't move forward.

IF... I move forward and place the children in child care, I face "SILENCE", if I move forward and find other alternatives.. I face "SILENCE"....

And yes, I do resent having to be dependant. I resent it a whole hell of alot. The children have a father who WON'T take responsibility or help.

When ever the kids get sick... I have to take a day off from work.
When ever the kids have to go to the doctor's... I have to take off from work.
When ever anything happens... I have to be there. In order to keep my "JOB" how can I do this???? there is not one single solitary employer out there who will allow for this to happen. So we become dependant on others to help us. And no.. there is no other support system for us.

If you are a SINGLE mom and you work full time.. you are limited to socializing or forming "friendships" with other mom's. All of us are too tired, worn out and numb, we have limited means to form relationships with other mom's to offer each other this kind of help and support. So what do we do? we lean on our family and friends and get our support from there.

My mother does have the ability to say..."NO" and she has. It's I who don't have the ability to say "NO" to her. No one has the ability to say "NO" to her... why? because if we do, we're given the guilt and silent treatment.

[Excalibur]

Last summer, I placed the children in "Summer Camp" and my mother
tossed cookies. She felt it was a waste of money. I moved mountains to convince her it was for the good of all. And it'd give her time to pursue her own interests. Well, the first mistake on your part is interacting with her as if you must "justify" your view of what is best for your children. I do get the problem, I've lived it. You believe you need her to "agree" withyour positions, so that she'll cooperate with your agenda in the future.

that retians the parent/child dynamic between the two of you - which is unhealthy for you both, as well as frustrating.

IF you used the "so you can pursue your own interests" justification to her as if"you can't argue you'll have more time to yourself" - yuo might have been using immature reasoning as well. If she's never prioritized developing interests it's unlikely she's going to now.

Teens do that type of justification/reasoning all the time with adults. Well, if you'd let me get my drivers license, or loan me the car today - YOU would have more time to do what you need to do. It's a manipulation that the child cannot see as manipulation...while hte adult in the situation is goin "my job is you, my obligation is our financial stability, me loaning you the car won't work".

That's the same conflict you're in with your mother.....if she's never developed goals or itnerests, and you're attempting to justify taking away her job because yoou have the money now, and you want her cooperation in the future for your needs. But right now - you have the money to buy space away from her - and by god, you're going to do it.

She did... somewhat. Gardening. And complaining that her day was empty without the kids. Not saying your situation was my world at one point.....but my mother really is "my son's mother". I had him in a terrifying relationship, at ayoung age, that eliminated alot of options and opportunities for my future. I was in a perpetual state of "need" in every way......and she was the funding source, the day care provider, the date night sitter, etc. Even at the time, although I wouldn't admit it - she saw more of the child than I did, and she was more integral in shaping his perceptions and beliefs than me. I hate that, I knew it subconsciously - and I was in a tug of war with her until I was 35 because of it....and finally came to terms with ME...so I could stop arguing with her.

didn't help the child a bit - by then he was 16.

So you do want to step into her position, before judging her statement. Judgement is imperative in all situations...but if her "job' has really been "sub-parent" to your children - her day is empty without that. She went from being your mother....to thier sub-mom......and you realizing she's the 'step parent" in your situation if that's accurate is imperative.

They need her security as much as you need her cooperation.


This fall, my oldest daugther has been chosen to participate in a magnet program which would have her doing the 4rth and 5th grade at the same time. She's an outstanding student. Going through the program would add on to her school day by 1 1/2 hours. No problem. I'll find a way to send my youngest to LATCH KEY after school to avoid having 2 pick ups at the end of the school day. Mom nearly went ballistic. Are you doing that so that you don'thave to deal with your mother.......the no two pick up thing....I do get why you want your daughter in the program. But are you eliminating her doing one of the pickups - meaning you'd have to see her when you pick up the eldest child to pick up the younger child......to spite her or avoid her.

As your children appear to have been in her care and do regard her in some ways as a "parent' - you might ask your second child if she prefers latch key or grandma. Not that children should make adult decisions........they shouldn't. But which she would prefer would be good to know.....although you might not like the answer.


Same goes for Latch key before school. I'm working the plan, cutting costs and will send them to Latch Key in the fall to avoid the morning drama and mom having to be here. ah, enough said - this is in an effort now that your finances or options have freed up a bit to avoid having to deal with your mother...as your moother...because you two haven't stepped out of a parent/child dynamic.

make sure you're not penalizing your children while doing it.

Also...I'd take this step with another commitment if I were you. If you're going to release her obligation....commit to a permanent release, not a release "in this situation, or in this "chore"......release her obligation entirely and permanelty- knowing that you'll do whatever you haev to do to ensure that the time your children see her- is when you and they go to visit - or if they stay with her a few days in the summer at your consent.

In short, make sure you're never going to wnat to go back to what you had - if situations change.


I'm not ungracious Excaliber. I am grateful for everything mom has done for us. I am grateful for all of her love and help. What I rebel at is the PRICE or toll needs to be paid for it. There's a price for everything. And I do get your situation, been in it.

If you'd commit to ceasing her role as parent.....realizing she's never been a grandma that could spoil and turn the spoilage back to you for discipline and nurturing guidance......you wouldn't pay a price.

She's see aftera few years that creatively but resopnsibly - you handle your obligations as a parent...without the answer being a man in your life to pay bills, or something equivalent. She can then, if she chooses, stop worrying about your adult options being made by immaturing reasoning - affecting you, your children, and her by default of association.

If she never chooses to regard you as an adult......you won't "feel what you feel" in owning your own life.

It took about 10 years of me living withouot her "co-parenting".....for her to come to realize, in my case, that I was capable of making decisions and choices and taking actions with "consequences in mind". That was what I had never displayed up until 35......and she let me have almost 10 years of doing it successfully...while there was lots of negotiation along the way regarding our dynamic....before we came to a point of 'adult/adult relationship'.

She now respects the person Iam...while I've respected the person I require myself to be for many years.

I now respect the person she is.....along with the positioon I put her in.....taking her out of that position, has allowed her perspective to change, and our dynamic negatively to cease and our positive relationship to begin.

That's what hasn't happened in your case. You're still her child...and those are her children...and you're tkaing her children away from her. And ifyou reference divorce court - you'll see how that is generally not well received withouot a fight.

If I choose not to participate in gossip... I'm a spoil sport. IF "gossip" is allyour mother has as an interest, what is occuring is thatyou're refusing to "bond" with herin the only way she knows. I get that. My mother and I don't really share interests or views on many things in life...while we do share core values such as honesty and integrity. So my mother finds it only possible, at her age of 85, to relate and remember to what she's familiar with - which is not me being an athlete, a successful person. She can't, and never has been able to "understand" why I love the life I defined and created for muyself and am so happy in. She's delighted that I'm happy and successful, but she'd never choose for herself the lifestyle I've chosen. It'd be unrealistic for me to believe that she and I willhave alot in common as a result - beyond an existential core set of values.


If I choose not to let my life slip me by and 'X-husband' bash.. I'm an ungrateful person. Some of this, as i'd interpet it...is perhaps her only way to relate to you. IT doesn't mean you have ot engage in it.....but it does mean you'd have to spend less "time" together in orderto not have it be an issue.

There is also creative conversation management.......every time she brings up whatis negative -y ou follow it thru with what it taught you about life and how it has helped you create this usccessful life you're living.


If I choose not to be negative or allow negativity to prevade my entire day.. I'm in the wrong??? Pessmistic people have a problem relating to an optmistic outlook. I've also found in my experience with my mother, and others...and me most especially - is that when something "negative" is being discussed - admit the negative in it.

I found myself for quite some time trying to say "i refuse to stay in a negative mindset" and that often washaving me overlook critical elements of the negative situation in which I was attempting to positively conduct myself to gain a successful outcome.

Admitting "yeah, it's crappy - along with why it is crappy" - helps....while that is often termed "staying in the problem" -if you're evaluating the problem while seeking a solution - that is termed "realistic".

You are right that mom isn't well adjusted or secure as she might be. I have encouraged her to pursue her interests, I've encouraged her socially interact.... she can't, or she won't. Well, you attempting to push the socially misfit "darling out the door to play" isn't going to result in anything but her sitting on the stoop and crying.

You accepting "how it is" - let's you work within what is.

Maybe it's a cultural thing, I don't know. I'm 1st generation American, and as progressive as mom is... she's stuck between being a Modern American Woman and Old World Eastern European. That might have some bearing...here we call it "codependent' - when you rely on identity and security through someone else's involvement and approval. But it's only termed that if you're an unhappy, frustrated, and angry/fearful person - if you're happy being as you are - you're termed well adjusted.

She doesn't fit here, and as a divorced woman she no longer fits in her nationality of people. She's been outstrasized (sp?). And she won't move forward. And that's her choice...and her right to make it doesn't affect your right to self-resopnsible happiness.


IF... I move forward and place the children in child care, I face "SILENCE", if I move forward and find other alternatives.. I face "SILENCE".... Isn't that what you want - her to shut up and leave you alone as yoou cannot force her to like and cooperate with the agenda.

It's what you let her silence do you to - that is doing you in. You hear it as disapproval...you feel "guilt".......you feel "obligation" to her status as mother, rather than her as a person. You'reletting what you feel about the silence - how you believe it reflects on you, etc......to deermine your actions.

Feelings aren't facts, goals, calls to action or toools of cognition. don't use them as such....evaluate facts, have goals, effectuate responsible action plans to acomplish the goals..


And yes, I do resent having to be dependant. I resent it a whole hell of alot. The children have a father who WON'T take responsibility or help. It's fine to "resent what is" - but you can't force the father, or your mother to acknowledge, adhere to, or deal with your feelings. You own the feelings that you resent your life has takenn this turn, is in this position, etc.

Acknowledge the resentment...so that you can respond to life....vs. react to the suppressed feelings.

When ever the kids get sick... I have to take a day off from work. I realize you didn't create the children on your own....but everybody who has a child on earth that they're legally named as parent SHOULD (in an ideal world) be prepared to single parent. Single parenting is you having all tehwork, chores, obligations and responsibilities.......that is why having a number of children you can solely suport is intelligent. People of both sexes tend to believe that becuase they had "assistance" in ferttilizing the egg - theyr'e going to have cooperation/assistance in doing the chores. Very untrue. Death separates, not just divorce.

Values justify actions. The father doesn't have a set of values or character that demand hee parent his children. That's unfortunate - but in reality you know it before getting pregnant. You just thought "oligation" would improve his character...and it didn't.


When ever anything happens... I have to be there. Well, askyourself objectively why "I" have to be present in all situations or emergencies. That is becuase "I" am legally the guardian of these minors. If YOU were to put the children up for adoption now - terminating your obligation and rights - you'd be free to do whatever, whenever, with whoever......but then you're going "but I'd lose my children, I'd not have the joy of them in my life". Correct.

The father of your children finds no joy in parenthood - therefore he finds no loss in lack thereof. You'd have to adopt his views in order to rid yourself of the requirement by LAW to be there in all situations, in the event of emergency, etc.


In order to keep my "JOB" how can I do this???? there is not one single solitary employer out there who will allow for this to happen. Well, motherhood does put a glass ceiling on careers - LOL, it's a well known fact. I get whatyou're saying -y ou've got a job - not a career. And a paycheck is contingent upon the workyou produce, which requires your presence in that job location.

Whether your education/experience/field would allow you creative single parent flex time - only you know. Whether your field is better paid, in the same cost of living type of environment as you're now in - in other parts of the country - only you know.

But...the reason that nobody can reproduce without assisstance...is becuase it's just a way of it in all societies - tribal or otherwise - that the "job" of parenting requires more than one person - aso ne person cannot be up, alert, responsibly responsive 24/7/365.

And we do tend to fall to our DNA pool to help us with what we cannot do for ourselves.

The people that have other sources/networks of support - have generally spent considerable time as an active, independent individual. They've developed the contacts nad networks of associations based on shared values, principles, and character...and so they can rely on something besides a gene pool option which is often taken for granted "you'll be there for me because I have needs, and we share DNA".

So we become dependant on others to help us. And no.. there is no other support system for us.

If you are a SINGLE mom and you work full time.. you are limited to socializing or forming "friendships" with other mom's. I get that, i was one. I'm not stating you should form friendships with these mothers...I'm stating at least look into mother's day out programms in your area, consider putting out a flyer to the single mothers in your neighborhood about how you might all pool your creative resources to allow each mother some "me time" each week - as her children are cared for in the group pool.....


All of us are too tired, worn out and numb, we have limited means to form relationships with other mom's to offer each other this kind of help and support. So what do we do? we lean on our family and friends and get our support from there. Question - if you mom dropped dead tomorrow of a heart attack what would your options be? Use that mindset to find creative options.

My mother does have the ability to say..."NO" and she has. It's I who don't have the ability to say "NO" to her. No one has the ability to say "NO" to her... why? because if we do, we're given the guilt and silent treatment. what you just said is that if anybody says no to her....they're not cooperated with on their terms for their needs in the future.

Guilt is a product of YOU - not her, or the silent treatment.

To easier see what I"m saying - if you were more educated, had a more professional position, if you had significantly more money, owned your home, and had no financial worries...if you had a 2-day a week maid, and you had no worries about how to pay for sitters or options post-school, or for your business trips...would her silent treatment bother you? No...you'd go - I have options, I don't fear the reprisal of what me saying no does to me in the future - when you say no when I'm in need.

I could go on - but it's too long for here [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[keenan]

Holy cow, we have the SAME mom! How is this possible?

I don't know that the solution to your problem can be found with your mom, and I agree that you may need to brainstorm about alternatives. I know that's not what you want to hear.

For thought-food, I especially like a piece of what Excalibur has said: You want a mom who is gracious and cooperative, upbeat and CONSISTENT (my addition). One problem is that she's not that kind of person in real life. In real life she's inclined to be self-absorbed and moody, and she doesn't have the courage or motivation (or the ability) to engage in the kind of introspection that could allow her to change.

If she's this person in real life, you can't expect that she'll be any different in her "mom" or "grandma" role. This is disappointing for at least two reasons: First, you love her and would really like to have a nice relationship with her! Who doesn't want a kindly mom/grandma? Second, right now you actually *need* her to behave *like* a kindly mom/grandma, whether she really is or not. ("She can be so great sometimes, so why not all the time?")

You're in a bind, so rather than having the luxury of seeking out the ideal childcare figure and dealing with your mom's difficulties on the side, you're trying to get your very imperfect mom to assume that ideal caregiver role (ok...I know you'd be satisfied with semi-ideal), which means that you're trying to change her to fit the mold that you (a) want and (b) need.

The "wanting" is one thing--but the "needing" is especially tricky. If this were merely a "wanting" situation, you could only respond to her good behavior and ignore the bad, and try to shape her (or at least not kill her). That you NEED her (and she knows it) totally puts her in the power position and feeds her narcissism AND her view of herself as a victim. She can behave however she wants to, and YOU have to find a way of (managing/placating/murdering (oops!)) her so that you can get what you need.

The perfect example of this is camp. You found a way for your kids to get some play time and to save your mom the burden of caring for them for a short period of time in the summer. Did she react positively to this by thanking you and enjoying her free time? No--she went ballistic. Why? You found a way to show her that you don't always NEED her. Poof! She suddenly realized that both her victim identity and her power are in danger of disappearing. If she can't be the merciful martyr who goes out of her way to care for her daughter's children, you're depriving her of her victim role and demonstrating that she's not in charge. How does she react? She gets angry, and quickly adopts a NEW victim role: "Don't you think I'm a good caregiver?"

That her behavior might have consequences IS on her mind, but rather than work within herself to change that behavior, she tries to reframe the situation so that it looks like you're attacking her ("What's wrong with the way I do things?"). I imagine that if you DO try to reason with her (about punishment, inconsistent behavior, inexplicable moods), there's a veiled threat somewhere in her response ("Well, if you don't like the way I do things....").

Your mom isn't going to change. You may or may not be able to come up with some strategies for coping with her. It won't go far with a mom like yours, but have you read the Shamu book? (Amy Sutherland, What Shamu taught me about life, love, and marriage). It's so-so...it has some decent tips for applying animal training techniques to humans. Way too cutesy, but you're probably not going in for therapy at 140 bucks a session right now, huh?

If you can't cope, you're gonna need a short term (childcare) and a long-term (financial) solution. Can you think of any other childcare solutions? Are there babysitting cooperatives where you live? Like Excalibur said, if your mom were suddenly not around anymore, what would you do? Here in California, there are groups of parents who will take turns watching each other's kids in the morning or after school. Can you trade services with a friend or neighbor? As for jobs, if you're in a state like Michigan or somewhere where the economy has just tanked, who DOES have the jobs? Somebody is working. Accountants? Lawyers? Dental hygienists? Mechanics? Is your degree/current field related to something that is more lucrative that is less likely to be downsized?

[Shadows Light]

Excalibur,

Thank-you for your lengthy replies. It will certainly give me a lot to think about and digest.

When I filed for divorce, I had a few friends tell me "How could you? I'd hide under the cover's and not be able to come up for air." This, from women who felt "STUCK" as I was stuck. My answer to them was it was a "have to" thing.. not a "want to"... for my children's and my safety and sanity. My question to them was..."If your husband keeled over tomorrow and died. What would you do? You'd have to keep going. You'd have to get up in the morning and keep living." My relationship with my "husband" was dead... I went through all mourning that a widow goes through, but without the sympathy and support. lol. He was dead and I had to move forward.

Last year I was able to send my youngest to "ALL DAY" Kindergarten. Whooo hooo. I felt some relief. How???

I'm not immune to the fact that Mom could fall off the face of the planet tomorrow. Anything can happen, and I have to be ready for it. Mom, had to have emergency gall bladder surgery a few years ago, and I had to turn on a dime. The kids needed child care. I had to go to work. And I needed to be there to take care of mom when she came home from the hospital. It was a wake up call. I needed to think of plan "B" Plan "C" plan "D" and thank god there is a whole alphabet for me to work with.

With both my children in all day school. I'm covered. I can work. If I can send them to Latch Key. I'm covered, I can work. If I can do the schedule in the summer time.. I'm covered.. I can work. And I can provide.

My mother understood all of this intellectually. Having a plan working the plan. What she didn't see is why I had to work it ... today. Now.

Sending my youngest to Latch-key after school has nothing to do with them not seeing their grandmother. It's to avoid having her make two trips to pick the children up at the end of the day.

I don't want to "DIVORCE" my mother or prevent her from seeing the kids. Not at all. Grandma "IS" a very important part of the kids lives. Sending the kids to LATCH key is there to help me.... and to help her. For instance, it's great mom wants to help and take the kids to school in the morning. But if she show's up late continuiously and then I'm late... how does this help??? When she comes over in the morning, I don't have time to coffee clatch, I have to get a move on, I have to get to work. I try to be respectful but work is work. If I take the kids to latch key... I get to work on time. If I take the kids to latch key in the morning, she doesn't have to be here. I thought we'd "ALL" be happy. And btw... my youngest does want to go to LATCH KEY. At least now she does, her friends are there and it would give her social time.

I get what you are trying to say. Mom is not making me feel guilty. I am making me feel guilty. And.... the Silence. Well, I've been fighting the silence weapon by ignoring it. Meaning, I let it ride and pretend I don't notice what she's doing. It's just wearing.

Mother/Child relationship. YEP. I getcha. But there are times that the tables are reversed and I am in the mothering role.

I've read Beatie's book "Co-Dependant" no more. I think I need to go back and re-read and digest more fully.

Thank-you for your insights, I will ponder on them further.

[Shadows Light]

[quote=keenan;2328346]

Holy cow, we have the SAME mom! How is this possible?

I'm thinking it's a genrational thing... I know I'm not alone.


For thought-food, I especially like a piece of what Excalibur has said: You want a mom who is gracious and cooperative, upbeat and CONSISTENT (my addition). One problem is that she's not that kind of person in real life. In real life she's inclined to be self-absorbed and moody, and she doesn't have the courage or motivation (or the ability) to engage in the kind of introspection that could allow her to change.

If she's this person in real life, you can't expect that she'll be any different in her "mom" or "grandma" role. This is disappointing for at least two reasons: First, you love her and would really like to have a nice relationship with her! Who doesn't want a kindly mom/grandma? Second, right now you actually *need* her to behave *like* a kindly mom/grandma, whether she really is or not. ("She can be so great sometimes, so why not all the time?")

You're in a bind, so rather than having the luxury of seeking out the ideal childcare figure and dealing with your mom's difficulties on the side, you're trying to get your very imperfect mom to assume that ideal caregiver role (ok...I know you'd be satisfied with semi-ideal), which means that you're trying to change her to fit the mold that you (a) want and (b) need.

The "wanting" is one thing--but the "needing" is especially tricky. If this were merely a "wanting" situation, you could only respond to her good behavior and ignore the bad, and try to shape her (or at least not kill her). That you NEED her (and she knows it) totally puts her in the power position and feeds her narcissism AND her view of herself as a victim. She can behave however she wants to, and YOU have to find a way of (managing/placating/murdering (oops!)) her so that you can get what you need.

The perfect example of this is camp.

You found a way for your kids to get some play time and to save your mom the burden of caring for them for a short period of time in the summer. Did she react positively to this by thanking you and enjoying her free time? No--she went ballistic. Why? You found a way to show her that you don't always NEED her. Poof! She suddenly realized that both her victim identity and her power are in danger of disappearing. If she can't be the merciful martyr who goes out of her way to care for her daughter's children, you're depriving her of her victim role and demonstrating that she's not in charge. How does she react? She gets angry, and quickly adopts a NEW victim role: "Don't you think I'm a good caregiver?"

That her behavior might have consequences IS on her mind, but rather than work within herself to change that behavior, she tries to reframe the situation so that it looks like you're attacking her ("What's wrong with the way I do things?"). I imagine that if you DO try to reason with her (about punishment, inconsistent behavior, inexplicable moods), there's a veiled threat somewhere in her response ("Well, if you don't like the way I do things....").

YES YES YES..... if I find solutions to my dangling participles... she is threatened and can't go into her MARTYR/VICTIM role. EXACTLY!!!!
If you tell her something about herself that she doesn't like.. she writes you off. She's done it to "good friends" I've seen it. I've called her on it.
"Mom, you're wrong... " and **POOF** You're now turned into a two headed monster because you are agreeing with whoever she's disagreeing with.

Your mom isn't going to change.

I know this. Only "I" can change. Been there done that with
a controlling "x-mother-in-law" took me forever and a day to get it through my thick head that I don't have to PLEASE her. That was easier to do since she wasn't my mother. The same "BOND" and relationship wasn't there.

You may or may not be able to come up with some strategies for coping with her. It won't go far with a mom like yours, but have you read the Shamu book? (Amy Sutherland, What Shamu taught me about life, love, and marriage). It's so-so...it has some decent tips for applying animal training techniques to humans. Way too cutesy, but you're probably not going in for therapy at 140 bucks a session right now, huh?

No... I can't afford therapy right now. Out of the realm of possibility. But I will look for the Book. Thanks for the tip. I'm a voracious reader.

If you can't cope, you're gonna need a short term (childcare) and a long-term (financial) solution. Can you think of any other childcare solutions? Are there babysitting cooperatives where you live? Like Excalibur said, if your mom were suddenly not around anymore, what would you do? Here in California, there are groups of parents who will take turns watching each other's kids in the morning or after school. Can you trade services with a friend or neighbor? As for jobs, if you're in a state like Michigan or somewhere where the economy has just tanked, who DOES have the jobs? Somebody is working. Accountants? Lawyers? Dental hygienists? Mechanics? Is your degree/current field related to something that is more lucrative that is less likely to be downsized?

I am not aware of any groups in my area at this time. But I'm about to dial family services to start hunting. If not... I might just start a CHAPTER program myself. I know that I am not the ONLY mom out here and my issues are NOT unique.

As to the tanked economy... Yes, I'm in the mid-west states where the economy has tanked. Banking and Healthcare are the two major sources of employment around here other than IT. None of which are up my ally. And yes, I am on the market and looking. Re-education??? gads, who has the time or money at this time. I'm exhausted by the time my kids are ready for bed.

[Excalibur]

When I filed for divorce, I had a few friends tell me "How could you? I'd hide under the cover's and not be able to come up for air." This, from women who felt "STUCK" as I was stuck. My answer to them was it was a "have to" thing.. not a "want to"... for my children's and my safety and sanity. My question to them was..."If your husband keeled over tomorrow and died. What would you do? You'd have to keep going. You'd have to get up in the morning and keep living." My relationship with my "husband" was dead... I went through all mourning that a widow goes through, but without the sympathy and support. lol. He was dead and I had to move forward.
I get the "relationship is dead between us thing" as a reason for divorce...I also get the violent person youo're married to being a threat to you and your chilren reason for divorce. Trust me - I get divorce.....because that used to be my 5 year routine from 18 to 35....to get a new divorce!

From the perspective I have now.....I can say this. When my child was an infant at the conclusiono of the first marriage to the homicidal drug user and dealer......I look back now and realize if I'd been something beyond 19, terrified, humiliated, and horrified - I'd haev never married #2. He was a good person, good provider..but he wasn't an emotionally bonding person. So we didn't have a "relationship" as I'd come to later define it. I had needs - and he was a provider, a good person. I also can say after all I put everybody thru - if I'd have been more mature to be able to last thru the "I don't have romance and positive feelings about me with him".......I'd have been better off for me and everybody else most importantly - to stay in that relationship. Today - at 45, I'm much like him....the problem was I was 24...to his 45!

So if your ex was a violent man....you can't live in fear and threat and potential homicide - get out, nothing is worth staying for. But if he wasn't that- the people on the outside were saying possibly "so what if you aren't all this emotionally fulfilled, in love with him, in love with you becuase you have him...you haev someone who's providing financially, easing your situation physically, etc."

I get that too......because in the last marriage, while I no longer had an infant on my hands - but a drug using 15 year old thanks to my dysfunctionality in parentig.......I had no options but to stay in the marriage, get my head together, figure out how to restore my public reputation after my actions in ways too lengthy for here.....and find a job, and move into what I could afford, and dela with the ramfiications of a child on drugs.

So, I found teh "me" I'd been so convinced would exist in the "next relationship" - in that relationship frought with failure, social ostracization, financial destutition, poverty and squalor and emotional abuse. I found that me.....that I became...so that taking "me" forward into "life" allowed me to deal with the past situations to a point of resolution and conclusion and go forward with options rather than "baggage".

Do consider all that - in your situation. The woman you want too respect, admire, trust, and accept...the motto for life of "No matter whre i go, there I am, I trust and respect nad admire me and can handle me and all my situations".......that is withinyour grasp - in your situation...and it's imperative you find it not to create more chaos..you havechildren to consider if nothing else.

Last year I was able to send my youngest to "ALL DAY" Kindergarten. Whooo hooo. I felt some relief. How??? sure, now your perception is that you have two kids in all-day school, and you're less likely to be called to day care, etc. which means you can have a more structured workday and perhaps get a raise or two. I get that - you're craving structure and consistency - and your children in one location all day represented it. You perceive the school has "obligations" to your children becuase of laws....whereas day care has rules that you as a parent, and your child's health, behavior etc. must abide by - or else there is disruption to your work day and routine.


I'm not immune to the fact that Mom could fall off the face of the planet tomorrow. Anything can happen, and I have to be ready for it. Mom, had to have emergency gall bladder surgery a few years ago, and I had to turn on a dime. The kids needed child care. I had to go to work. And I needed to be there to take care of mom when she came home from the hospital. It was a wake up call. I needed to think of plan "B" Plan "C" plan "D" and thank god there is a whole alphabet for me to work with. "all day sschool" was not a back-up plan. All day school was going too occur provided both your children are in the publi school system and not in special ed needs. So you do need to use more of the alphabet to form plans. IT seems your work day is covered..provided they don't get sick, forget lunch or books, or cause disruption in the classroom. But you're not covered in "real life" - which is not the 9 hours emcompassing work/school.


With both my children in all day school. I'm covered. I can work. If I can send them to Latch Key. I'm covered, I can work. If I can do the schedule in the summer time.. I'm covered.. I can work. And I can provide. That's great...provided costs don't go up, a recession doesn't hit, etc. and all those things are running through your mind as well, subliminally - which is what makes you keep looking at her as the fallback safety net - and don't want to offend or upset her.


My mother understood all of this intellectually. Having a plan working the plan. What she didn't see is why I had to work it ... today. Now. so you're stating - I can get it intellectually- but emmotionally it hurts - was her response...and she responds to her feelings. You don't respect that approach, so stop utilizing it in your life in the areas that you do - because we all do.


Sending my youngest to Latch-key after school has nothing to do with them not seeing their grandmother. It's to avoid having her make two trips to pick the children up at the end of the day. I don't know if you'll be able to objectively hear this but....while you're out here taking the steps and decisions of someone "entering independence".....like an 18 or 22 yearold - you're going "look, I made a plan, look, I'm able to institute it, look - it's meeting my needs - aren't you proud of me?" You're doing this at 41. You're about 15-20 years behind the curve.

So while your mother might have applauded your planning, action/success as a pattern at 22 or 25...you weren't doing it then...but relying and including on her and her structuring her life around remaining "necessary"......

We can have it all, not all at once. And not everybody goes thru the same stage of life, or takes the steps we all take in life - at the same age or time.

You're doing now at 41...what you should have been doing at 22. How young would SHE have been - if you'd done this 19 years ago? How much more youth, energy, options, and potential would her life have had for her to go out and "create a life" - if you'd done this back then?

So do see the problem from both sides.......as your children age...they're not necessarily going to mature at the rate of their aging. Wht you're talking about is as a mother - standing back, living your life, being involved in your own interests and goals - ifyour children are out there in life with adult options, using immature reasoning. That's not abandonment...but it is what your mother should have done. She shouldn't have allowed you to become this reliant on her......and she wouldn't have MAYBE (not placing fault here)....if your life hadn't gone as it has - with your actions having the results they've had.......with you relying on her as a back up plan, safety net, etc.

You're to be applauded for taking baby steps into maturity based reasoning, evaluating, risk management, and goal assessment and achievement at 41....highly commended. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

But while you're doing it - realize you can't come full circle with it witout developing an objective platform on which to stand to evaluate you and your actions - how it has impacted and affected others...andhow that has created a culminating effect that you're dealing with today.

I don't want to "DIVORCE" my mother or prevent her from seeing the kids. Not at all. Grandma "IS" a very important part of the kids lives. Sending the kids to LATCH key is there to help me.... and to help her. Just a suggestion...as you'll have deaing with your mother about this I'm surein the near future. If you'd simply state "mother, I am obligated to do what i believe as a parent is best in light of ALL the needs, facts, and priroities I have. I realize I am taking actions that are entirely about my best interests and needs in this situation. I know this is asking you to again make an adjustment in how you view yourself in "our lives" without considering your needs overmuch as a priority right now. Mother, I appreciate you accepting the opsition I've put you in for all these years. Me asking you to prioritize me and my needs and those of my children as they've changed, evolved, and grown over the years. It's made you fulfill the mother's role twice as long in my lifetime, as is generally anticipated when conception takes place. And now here i am stating that I"m totally disregarding how integral you've made our needs into your life. That's extremely difficult to do, mother, and it's from you and the doing of it, that I am finally taking larger steps towards self-responsible maturity."

See how that goes over.


For instance, it's great mom wants to help and take the kids to school in the morning. But if she show's up late continuiously and then I'm late... how does this help??? HEre's what is happening...it used to happen to me with the rent.

An inequality based relationshipi is a power struggle. Insecure people are never responding they're always "reacting".

Your mother knows you need her to do this task...and on time. She realizes that to keep you in "need"....keeps her in "necessity". So if she's late..and thus you're late......you're likely to keep needing her to do it, fear of losing her cooperation, while compounded by fear of reprisal at work.

This is NOT a conscious action on her part. What you do in manipulation isn't conscious either.

YOU abdicate your responsiblity for you in asking her to do it at all. You can't "control" anything in life ever except what YOU peresonally feel, think, believe, want, need, say, do, decide. So you are making a free will choice so have her do this..you think you're not, becuase you believe you have no choice, she's all you've got.

But you're choosing to let someone you KNOW by past experience, has the ethical standards to allow her to be late.......so that she remains necessary. She's not late - to make you late. She's late...to remain necessary in your lives, to keep her identity.

Why don't you, with her being your sole option right now - take your children to her........that way you're not relying on her to be on time, and you can ensure that you are on time - with your actions.

It doesn't eliminate her identity, she's not likely to throw up an objection.......and it gets you what you want - to work on time. by your efforts...which gains you self-respect and lessens the impression that you're in a victim's position to life in general.

When she comes over in the morning, I don't have time to coffee clatch, I have to get a move on, I have to get to work. I try to be respectful but work is work. If I take the kids to latch key... I get to work on time. If I take the kids to latch key in the morning, she doesn't have to be here. I thought we'd "ALL" be happy. And btw... my youngest does want to go to LATCH KEY. At least now she does, her friends are there and it would give her social time. Itis a workable plan...it is eliminating her identityin your life. I do get you might have to go this route for years...but you can't do it with her as a back up plan for unpredicted contingencies.

I get what you are trying to say. Mom is not making me feel guilty. I am making me feel guilty. And.... the Silence. Well, I've been fighting the silence weapon by ignoring it. Meaning, I let it ride and pretend I don't notice what she's doing. It's just wearing.

Mother/Child relationship. YEP. I getcha. But there are times that the tables are reversed and I am in the mothering role.

I've read Beatie's book "Co-Dependant" no more. I think I need to go back and re-read and digest more fully.

Thank-you for your insights, I will ponder on them further.