Lies, Trust, and Depression

[outre]

I started dating this girl about 5 years ago and we quickly became very close. We worked together for awhile and shared many friends. One of our mutual friends had a very obvious and open crush on the girl I was seeing. We kept our relationship "a secret" because of the potential scandal in the workplace.

Anyway, we grew very close and without expecting or knowing I fell very hard for this girl. She continued to maintain a "friendship" with this other co-worker/friend who openly chased her; all the while reassuring me that he was just a "friend" and she had no interest. I doubted this, but wanted to believe so bad that I gave her the benefit of the doubt and made a conscious effort to trust her (against my better judgement). I didn't want some petty misdirected jealousy to get in the way.

Unfortunately, she was lying to me about a number of things and her relationship with our mutual friend was eventually exposed. She was seeing both of us and turning us against each other. She stopped seeing him and agreed to cut him out of her life and eventually did. We worked on fixing things, but many more lies damaged our relationship and my trust over the next year or two. I tried very hard to be fair and I did not follow her or verify her stories, but they were sometimes very obviously less than the truth. I may have had trouble admitting it at first, but I was deeply wounded and very hurt by her actions and lies.

Somehow, we stayed together and the last couple of years have been wonderful and my trust has begun to come back. However, a few problems remain and I'm at a loss as to how to approach the lingering issues.

1) She never came clean and told the truth about the other men she was seeing and lying about. I let her off the hook and now often wonder what I don't know. I recently read that one of the first steps should be to admit ALL lies and tell the truth about everything -- in order to get it out and show the person who was lied to that they are the most important.

Bringing up this topic results in the almost canned response of "I'm not going over the past".

2) I have internalized many painful feelings and now present the well known symptoms of depression.

The problem with the depression is that I am not able to hold up my end of the relationship and I'm not sure if it is because I'm messed up and sad or if I'm just not able to trust her again.

The question is how to proceed under two major options:

1) Split up and stop seeing each other. I move on and we both go thru the heartache and pain of losing a relationship with the idea that we're not a good fit.

2) Stay together. How do I/we approach trust after the event(s) took place so long ago? I never asked for details and she never admitted the many deceptions. Do we go back there and start with that? I'm not so much hurt anymore as much as I want to hear the truth. I feel that if she could tell me the truth about such difficult things (lies, cheating, deception) that maybe it would show that she trusts me and my love.

I know the obvious advice may be to run away screaming and it may well be the advice I'd give my friends, but I'm asking how to rebuild trust if we were to stay together.

Thanks in advance for any and all feedback.

[honeyspur]

I'll tell you - I broke up with my bf of 7 years a couple years ago to date another guy. It did help that I was honest and kept myself from cheating, but it didn't keep my boyfriend from losing trust in me to some degree. It is natural I think.

I have always given my guy props for forgiving me and taking me back. He was able to admit we had issues which is why I was interested in another guy in the first place.

The thing that is interesting to me about your post is that you mention this relationship lasted after the initial foundation break. That really speaks about the love between the two of you. It proves to some extent her devotion to you.
I wouldn't really entertain breaking things off unless some factors are present:

1. You avoid her, dread seeing her and really don't miss her when you are apart.
2. She is verbally or physically abusive towards you.
3. You have a voice in your head saying, "I don't love this woman - I don't desire her and I just can't let go for fear of hurting HER." on a daily basis, for somewhat over a month.

If none of these are true - it's best to concentrate on fixing the relationship. Since you recognize that it's coming from you internally and not from her actions, then really it is a matter of choosing to let go of what may have become a pattern of thinking when you become bored, restless and unmotivated. You may feel this way about the relationship or simply about yourself. Are you needing more to do? More outside friends or activities? Are you wanting more and more from her instead of having a fuller life outside of the relationship?


There is nothing wrong with bringing up the past if you phrase things in a respectful, non-blaming way. Just because she gets defensive doesn't mean she's up to old tricks - people often feel "ambushed" if you bring up embarassing things they never dealt with properly.
It is interesting that you "let her off the hook". If there is incriminating evidence (she goes out a lot - erratic hours without explanation, she has several guy friends she sees without you or has male friends you've never met, etc) - you may have set yourself up with a deceitful woman by not communicating a long time ago.

But it could also be the thing that made her fall in love with you. The fact she made such a horrible mistake and you really just accepted it and her is a powerful pull for anyone. You may have done exactly the right thing.

I hope this helps and hope you come to some realization so your life can get back on track!

[outre]

Originally Posted by honeyspur

If none of these are true - it's best to concentrate on fixing the relationship. Since you recognize that it's coming from you internally and not from her actions, then really it is a matter of choosing to let go of what may have become a pattern of thinking when you become bored, restless and unmotivated. You may feel this way about the relationship or simply about yourself. Are you needing more to do? More outside friends or activities? Are you wanting more and more from her instead of having a fuller life outside of the relationship?

Thank you for the reponse. I often wonder some of the very questions you ask above. I sometimes think I'm over analyzing and complicating a simple issue or holding on to something deep inside of me that is perpetually holding me back.

Originally Posted by honeyspur

There is nothing wrong with bringing up the past if you phrase things in a respectful, non-blaming way. Just because she gets defensive doesn't mean she's up to old tricks - people often feel "ambushed" if you bring up embarassing things they never dealt with properly.
It is interesting that you "let her off the hook". If there is incriminating evidence (she goes out a lot - erratic hours without explanation, she has several guy friends she sees without you or has male friends you've never met, etc) - you may have set yourself up with a deceitful woman by not communicating a long time ago.

The problem/question is that we never dealt with the issues and she has never "opened up" and told me something "bad" -- I always found out thru other people or catching inconsistent statements that brought out the deception. There is plenty of incriminating evidence and I spent a long difficult time struggling with her deception, lies, and actions. I've come to accept her as her and I accept the past actions. I'm ok with the things I know; the guys I know about -- the pain went away and I want to move on. I want to get to a point where I can joke about it; it is part of our relationship and I accept it. However, she still refuses to accept her actions and take responsibility.

She cheated on me with a mutual friend who was married. The deception surrounding this event was too deep for me to grasp, but I know it hurt her to do something she is so against. I know she felt terrible about the guy's wife. I know she felt terrible about herself. And she felt guilty about deceiving me. I accept the night happened and I'm ok with it now, but I want to help her; I should be a friend that can help her work thru the guilt (not for me, but for herself, the guy she slept with, and his wife). But I can't help her because she still insists it didn't happen and/or won't talk about it.

I just wonder what else I don't know and I wish she would just sit down and tell me everything. So I know. So it's out in the open. So we can talk about it. So we can leave it behind. I'm not interested in the intimate details, just the rough outline so I know about as much as everyone else involved.

I'm at a loss as to how to approach it. I've offered to listen without judging; I've explained that I've come to terms with the past; I've explained that it doesn't hurt me as much as it once did. I completely accept her: good and bad; past and present, but it just seems we'll never be super close while she holds on to so many secrets... ?

[honeyspur]

Then you need to put it down. If you've done all you can do and you're still obsessing - then you HAVEN'T accepted her as she is. You are still harbouring a belief. Sometimes we just have to change our minds and live in the unknown. This means we're still going to feel anxious, uneasy, distrusting because that pattern of thinking has become a habit, you see.
Breaking habits are hard. Right now I'm trying not to bite my fingernails and it's making me a very difficult person to be around.

Emotional habits are the same. You're going to be cranky, moody and mopey. Stop beating yourself up, hon - it's a process.
Real acceptance means you aren't going to get everything you want. Your going to have to live with mystery. If you've asked her directly and she's given an explanation and you weren't satisfied - how is that her problem?

It's tough. And it's the test of true love. If she doesn't open up - she is living with shame to a degree and may have developed her own non-communicative habit because of that. Remember her style of dealing with things has almost nothing to do with you - it was how she grew up and what she was exposed to. Having compassion for that is going to help.

You are a good man - you must let yourself feel that despite her shame and fears. You can be open and loving to her despite her attitudes. I know you can because you are already doing it in a way - I can hear it in your posts. Why does she have to be the "good" one, I wonder? The brave one - the strong one - the responsible one. Why can't you be the front runner in this growth? Because maybe you are more similar to her than you realize, perhaps? Not that you cheat necessarily - but that you with-hold a part of your true self from her - you keep things bottled inside - things you may feel very justified about hiding since they aren't "evil" like cheating.

Think about it - this may be a great journey you are about to go on - you never know.....

[outre]

Originally Posted by honeyspur

Then you need to put it down. If you've done all you can do and you're still obsessing - then you HAVEN'T accepted her as she is. You are still harbouring a belief.

Ah, perhaps I haven't accepted her as much as I thought. I've been living with the idea that I CAN accept anything she's done because I accept her, but I think this conclusion took so long and so much of me, I naturally expected it from her. You make a very good point and I am now open to the possibility that my acceptance must come from me and exist completely separate of her. Perhaps she'll never accept the past or be open or trusting enough to share - so I'll look at accepting that. Thanks for the insight.

Originally Posted by honeyspur

If you've asked her directly and she's given an explanation and you weren't satisfied - how is that her problem?

I don't think it is her problem, I think it is mine. However, I've asked directly and she's refused to give an explanation. Instsead she becomes disproportionally angry and defense saying she doesn't want to think about the past. [I believe she doesn't want to think or talk about the past, but she hasn't even said she's sorry.]

Originally Posted by honeyspur

Because maybe you are more similar to her than you realize, perhaps? Not that you cheat necessarily - but that you with-hold a part of your true self from her - you keep things bottled inside - things you may feel very justified about hiding since they aren't "evil" like cheating.

Bingo. I have been holding back and I have been working to be more and more open to her. I've always thought the reason for this was that I'm afraid to give all of myself to her again knowing the risk and pain that would follow from further deception. Maybe I need to look a little deeper.

Again, thanks for the thoughtful insight.

[honeyspur]

Well I'm sorry she couldn't apologize to you. I deal with that from my boyfriend too. He actually refuses to apologize as a way of life and it's something I've adopted myself. I don't think apologies are necessary in life unless you really mean it - otherwise they are fake and not helpful.
All 'mistakes' are calculated to a degree - we do things for ourselves - our own wants and desires.

I must say I'm very impressed with your understanding of human behavior - it will bring you good things. We always get angry with someone when we have the same problem. It's hard to recognize because it's rarely the same 'topic'!

Your girl is lucky to have you - thanks for posting and keep us posted of any developments.

[RayKay]

I think it is going to be very hard to build (I won't say rebuild as it has never been there) trust unless you are both working on being honest with one another. After all, how can you trust one another if you are still hiding things from her.

She knows what she did was wrong...it's why she won't talk about it in fact. I would be rather alarmed at her behaviour or denial of responsibility (she is denying it if she just issues blanket statements like "I don't want to talk about the past"). It would be different if you HAVE talked of it, and moved on together and keep bringing it up. The fact you cannot even start to talk about it to move forward is what is really holding you back.

I have to say...until you are both honest with yourselves and each others, I think trust is always going to be an issue. To me trust is an integral building block of a healthy relationship. It is not just about fidelity, it is about trusting each other emotionally, as partners, in supporting one another, in considering your interests, feelings.....you can't grow and put yourself out there without it.

I admit for me, personally, I am not sure I could get over someone cheating on me. To me that is just a crucial betrayal. I cannot imagine doing that to someone I love so deeply, so if they were to do it to me, how could I even trust their love for me? But I do know that if I was to even try to do so...it WOULD require honesty, truthfulness and transparency. Things you aren't getting.

I guess I don't really know what to say because I think to move forward you NEED to be truthful with one another and stop the denials, lies and deceit. Or else you are just continuing it all. I think even a marital counselor would tell you both the same...that all this is doing is keeping the lack of trust self-perpetuate.

[outre]

Originally Posted by RayKay

I think it is going to be very hard to build (I won't say rebuild as it has never been there) trust unless you are both working on being honest with one another. After all, how can you trust one another if you are still hiding things from her.

I'm not sure I'm "hiding" anything; I'm simply not taking the next step until I feel a sense of security. I'm afraid of past deception and the awful times that follow.

Originally Posted by RayKay

It would be different if you HAVE talked of it, and moved on together and keep bringing it up.

Agreed, and it is that first step I'm attempting to take. I've communicated to her that once it is out and we understand why it happened and why it won't likely happen again it will become history. I want it gone and I don't bring it up in anger or as an insult -- it just comes up from time to time -- pictures, places, work, friends, stories. I don't want to hear it from someone else and if I do I'd like to be able to wink at them and say, "yeah, I know all about it".

Originally Posted by RayKay

I admit for me, personally, I am not sure I could get over someone cheating on me. To me that is just a crucial betrayal. I cannot imagine doing that to someone I love so deeply, so if they were to do it to me, how could I even trust their love for me? But I do know that if I was to even try to do so...it WOULD require honesty, truthfulness and transparency. Things you aren't getting.

I'm not crazy about the idea, but her past actions really don't indicate she doesn't love me or care about me. I think these things can be mutually exclusive. She has become a different person and her attitude alone makes me believe she's now very aware that her actions have consequences and I believe she's truthful about the present. What I'm struggling with is why she continues to lie about the past. The transparency doesn't exist as she is offended when I even ask about who she's talking to...

Thanks for the feedback, it is so helpful to hear some opinions and insight.