Dealing with Christians

pianoguy · 08-13-2005, 12:57 AM

I just wondered if anyone here had advice on dealing with conservative Christians who think that homosexuality is a sin. I am mostly closeted, and have a number of friends who are somewhat religious. I don't really feel the need to come out to them, but I just wonder how other people deal with this kind of thing. I always feel this need to start fighting with people over the issue and part of me thinks that I should just accept that these people think differently than I do, even if it is an idiotic way of thinking.

I'll give one example- I have a penpal who I've corresponded with for 10 years but never actually met. She didn't know I was gay and sent me an e-mail forward in support of the constitutional marriage amendment. Big mistake- I attacked her viciously and came out to her in the process. She wrote back saying I had made her cry, I was unmoved but wrote her back a very reasonable, calm e-mail detailing why I thought it was ridiculous to support such an amendment and ending with a somewhat sappy but very moving description of my first crush and why I cannot stand the idea of something that feels so pure to me being described as a sin. She writes back saying, "Let's just have a truce." I am still quite furious- she didn't say "I thought about your e-mail" or "I can see where you're coming from" just "let's stop talking about this so you will stop yelling at me." What should I do? My brain says I should just calm down and accept her truce but I really just want to tell her to get lost.

Another example- my best friend Bob is a great guy. He has a huge heart and brain and is one of the most caring people I know. I'm pretty sure he believes that homosexuality is probably a sin, but he says he doesn't know for sure (at least when I'm talking to him). He has very strange religious views that I'm not entirely comfortable with, a weird mix of Evangelical Christianity (he believes the Bible is literally true) with a very progressive view on science (he believes in evolution) and very conservative views on social issues (he's somewhat sexist). I love spending time with him, he's my friend after all, but I still find that it hurts when we talk about this issue, even though he does not judge me, says he doesn't believe I am going to Hell, thinks it's okay when I crush on his friends, looks for guys to set me up with, etc. And yet- I still can't stand the idea that such a pure feeling for me- that he could think it would be a sin, somehow... Maybe I'm being unreasonable. I know his views have evolved a lot since meeting me, but I just wish he would just accept what I say since I am gay and he is not. Stupid Bible.

I'm finding that I have a lot of anger over this issue and in my spare time I've found a new hobby: attacking conservatives. I go to a Christian College (long story- only 1 semester left thank God) so they are not hard to find. In this forum I actually seek out people who are saying gay people are going to Hell and use a cunning mixture of unassailable logic and cruel sarcasm to make them look like the idiots they are. I really enjoy this, I feel like I shouldn't but I do.

My wonderful parents say I should just accept that these people are they way they are and avoid the topic. I am improving at this, I'm finding I can sometimes love people despite their religion, but it still annoys me.

Thanks for listening to me vent guys. Do others feel this way? How do you deal with this? Any advice on the penpal? I'd really like to hear from some older gay people if possible, but I'd also love to hear from straight people and young people.

Bitter_Blasphemy · 08-13-2005, 01:10 AM

hi.. im only 19 and very religious but i also have a HUGE number of gay friends. in fact my two best friends are gay.

but heres my advice to you-
people are going to hold their views no matter what. and while it feels so natural to you to hold these feelings for other men.. its also natural for a religous person to hold feelings of dislike towards gay people. i dont mean this in a mean or unforgiving way at all but what i am getting at is this--

no matter what everyones going to hold onto their beliefs. you may feel their beliefs are wrong just like they feel your beliefs are wrong but i doubt either of you are going to budge on your opinion. but rather than yelling at the other person over their faith why dont you be the bigger person in the scenario and calmly and peacefully explain your side of why you feel homosexuality is okay. i dunno.. that may just be the pacifist in me coming out.. but i think itll work better than yelling at someone.

AlwaysNeedHelp · 08-13-2005, 02:30 AM

I believe homosexuality is a SIN.

i dont know why when god created a woman to have sex with her you go and have sex with a guy... sorry but have to say my opinion...

i really dont know what to say.. i dont agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

michelemybell · 08-13-2005, 02:48 AM

pianoguy,
This is a huge lesson you gotta learn to stay sane: Stay strong in your beliefs, but dont let other people get you down. It doesn't matter what you do in life--Someone is always going to have an opinion about it or not agree with it or not like what you do. We all go through it with everything. Just accept that you wont be accepted by everyone...and you'll be fine either way. I've learned it's an impossible task to be liked by everyone, and will only destroy you if you try to do so. You cant live for others. Accept that others disagree and walk away.

Shanö · 08-13-2005, 04:52 AM

Hi Pianoguy,
I'm staunchly Christian, although i do not belong to 'a' specific religion, precisely because of the behaviours they tend to perpetrate as being 'Christian' and biblical and they are not at all.

What i think you need to consider here is the irony in your behaviour? You are not talking to this girl because she does not share your view, [when she has called a truce!] yet you are out there arguing and trying to stir things up with others that don't share YOUR view point? Disagreement is healthy and not something to turn your back on people for - you or them? Surely the views of others must be accepted? Yours included?

Perhaps the ammendment is ethical, after all marriage does not stem from a declaration of just 'love' does it, therefore it does not reduce the relationship you are having either? for that matter, any marriage ceremony in a church is not biblical either, it is cultural and dragged in by churchs...

However, back to your issue with Christians. They have no right to brandish you a sinner, because we are all that! They do have justification for disagreeing with you. In the same manner as anyone Christian or not can tell me that swearing is wrong.

Perhaps you should turn any wrongful condemnations round on them and ask them about the fact that ALL sins are equal because that is what is truth to Christian, and that we are all sinners, so you are no worse than them, and that is truth to their eyes too, even if they don't like truth much. Ask them politely where they sin in their lives - then remind them of "he that can cast stones"...

I certainluy wouldnt berate you, whether im christian or not, i have no right to whatsoever...

mgirl · 08-13-2005, 06:02 AM

If you never speak out and defend your views, nothing will ever change. If great revolutionaires never did this, we wouldn't have some of the rights we have today, nor some of the prejudices (but that is a different story. It always seem the biased and prejudiced seem to win out in this world).

Nothing stops these bigotted people from speaking their truths, so why should it stop you? Just because somebody reads a book and believes everything that "scripture" says, without measuring it against their values, does not mean they have an ultimate right to dictate the status quo? No.

Why is that we adopt that attitude that we must remain silent, yet they are able to express their views and we are made to feel guilty? I bet they don't...

I actually feel sorry for these people as they do not know their own minds. In my opinion, it is better to speak your own truth no matter consequence as you have to be true to yourself and defend your views.

Things will never change unless we make them. The reason the earth is in such a state of disarray is because WE HAVE LET THESE THINGS HAPPEN!

Throughout your post, you are stifling your voice and your inner convictions. Why should you? They don't and they don't make any apologies for it!

You say you are enjoying challenging the status quo, well do it. If it feels right, do it.

Don't worry about your pen friend. If she can't accept you for who you are, you shouldn't hang around. Seriously, why does it always have to be "our issue"? Like we are ultimately wrong and they are ultimately "right"? Forget it.

If what the bible says, that we were all created equal and "love thy neighbour", why do we have to continiously jump through hoops to constantly prove ourselves? While they sit on their arrogant behinds and reap the benefits of our civilisation?

Sorry about all the edits, i am tired, but my end opinion is to say what you feel is right. If people don't accept this, it is their loss.

mgirl · 08-13-2005, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pianoguy

My wonderful parents say I should just accept that these people are they way they are and avoid the topic. I am improving at this, I'm finding I can sometimes love people despite their religion, but it still annoys me.

Complancency is the way to death. Why must we accept what they say?

Jinx · 08-13-2005, 11:27 AM

I've lived in a Conservative Christian home, as well as around many Catholic and other Christian individuals who believe it is a sin, one thing I've learned: You can't change their views, but that can't stop you from stating yours.

Those that are truly religious will believe it is a Sin and you'll not get farther than arguments because "The bible says so. The end." I've tried talking before to those sort and they usually all say the same things, if that is their belief. Honestly what can you do? I'm sure you've even heard of those who are claim to be homosexual themself but say they can never happily act on such thoughts because they'd be condemed to hell.

What disturbs me, are those which become Conservative Christians because they are ignorant about Homosexuality. They haven't a clue about anything Christian or Conservative other than "Hate gays. Give no marriage rights. No adoption. The end." You ask them about their other Conservative Christian beliefs and they haven't a clue about the bible otherwise except maybe one or two other passages. I say, they believe in everything or nothing at all. You can't bend the religion by believing in simply one passage to suit your needs when the others don't do you justice.

It doesn't mean all Conservatives and all Christians hate Homosexuality though, despite its a common stereotype, there are a good few that will be accepting. They may not care much for it, but they won't bash you for it. For those you may find a middle ground. I've found not all of them are out on the Homosexual rage bandwagon, so they can't all be dropped there.

My advice as given in any situation is: Be yourself. There will be those that will hate you. There will be those that love you. If they cannot accept you for who you are, you have no time to give to them. You are who you are, and do so happily. People will try to change you, try to do things to influence you, but stand strong and things will work in your favor.

justpaisley · 08-13-2005, 12:26 PM

You cannot force anyone to accept you for who you are. You can expect the best from people, but you will generally be disappointed. You can, however, accept them for who they are and assert your opinion whenever necessary.

I'm an evangelical Christian, but when I was presented with the marriage amendment petition, simply refused to sign it. When asked why, I said it was none of our business what people do with their lives as long as it doesn't affect us and it certainly isn't the government's business. I didn't scream at them because they're different, I simply asserted my opinion and realized that they are different from me and I must accept that. They, in turn, accepted that I am different.

It is extremely immature to expect people to accept you without making any attempt to accept them. You should not ever, ever let someone abuse you, and when a chance to assert yourself arises, do it, but you can NOT expect to change anyone and you can't scream at someone (your penpal) for bringing up something to you that she had absolutely no clue would offend you.

If you cannot accept these people for who they are, do not talk to them. If you can accept that they are different than you, by all means, assert your opinion whenever necessary and disagree with them and let them know if they offend you. But don't expect them to change unless you're willing to change, too.

Markers · 08-14-2005, 05:02 AM

<Flaming comments removed by Moderator>.

< so it was flaming huh??

>

{Yes, it was. Get with the program and stick to the debate instead of personal attacks. We could have removed your entire post instead. Love, the Mods}

Back to the topic. I'm christian, and I do believe homosexuality is a sin, because that is clearly stated in Bible. There's no way you can explain it away.. that's just how it goes. If someone wants the passages, I can give them. It doesn't look like many would want them here though, since this is about how to deal with people, not about homosexuality being a sin or not.

None of my friends are gay (as far as I know), but I'm sure it wouldn't matter. Everyone does sin, it's not a reason to hate someone. All I can do is to take care that I avoid sin as much as I can (which isn't too much). If you're bothered with someone who tries to banish you to hell or something because you're homosexual, you can remind them of "love your neighbour" part. It's not our job to really condemn anyone of their sins, leave that to God. It's okay to mention that: according to Bible, that is sin. People will either take it or leave it.

Shanö - You're wrong to say all sin is equal. Do you seriously believe that raping a child is as bad as stealing candy from shop? I didn't think you did.. and I'm sure God doesn't do it that way either. Otherwise it would be better to do in your dad if he annoys you than constantly losing your temper to him.

Also it is stated in Bible something like this: (not sure about exact words, but the meaning is same) Because of that this sin was worse than the another..

If you want, I can look up that passage too. PM me or something about it because it's sorta off topic here.

You are correct though about christians not brandishing homosexuals as sinners because we all do sin.. just justification for disagreeing of what you should do.

About the line "he that can cast stones", we can obviously read what's right and wrong from Bible. We are then entitled to say that, but leave the judgement to God. I think the casting stones refers to condemning people, sort of stepping into position of God here, not about keeping quiet about what Bible says about right and wrong.

I must say though, that just accepting sin "because we all do it anyway" and not even trying to oppose it is something God doesn't want us to do. Try to avoid sin, and honestly apologize if (when) you do it , that's what God wants us to do. He doesn't except anyone to be perfect.

08-13-2005, 12:57 AM	#1
pianoguy Offline Platinum Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Boston Gender: Male Age: 25 Posts: 1,343	Dealing with Christians I just wondered if anyone here had advice on dealing with conservative Christians who think that homosexuality is a sin. I am mostly closeted, and have a number of friends who are somewhat religious. I don't really feel the need to come out to them, but I just wonder how other people deal with this kind of thing. I always feel this need to start fighting with people over the issue and part of me thinks that I should just accept that these people think differently than I do, even if it is an idiotic way of thinking. I'll give one example- I have a penpal who I've corresponded with for 10 years but never actually met. She didn't know I was gay and sent me an e-mail forward in support of the constitutional marriage amendment. Big mistake- I attacked her viciously and came out to her in the process. She wrote back saying I had made her cry, I was unmoved but wrote her back a very reasonable, calm e-mail detailing why I thought it was ridiculous to support such an amendment and ending with a somewhat sappy but very moving description of my first crush and why I cannot stand the idea of something that feels so pure to me being described as a sin. She writes back saying, "Let's just have a truce." I am still quite furious- she didn't say "I thought about your e-mail" or "I can see where you're coming from" just "let's stop talking about this so you will stop yelling at me." What should I do? My brain says I should just calm down and accept her truce but I really just want to tell her to get lost. Another example- my best friend Bob is a great guy. He has a huge heart and brain and is one of the most caring people I know. I'm pretty sure he believes that homosexuality is probably a sin, but he says he doesn't know for sure (at least when I'm talking to him). He has very strange religious views that I'm not entirely comfortable with, a weird mix of Evangelical Christianity (he believes the Bible is literally true) with a very progressive view on science (he believes in evolution) and very conservative views on social issues (he's somewhat sexist). I love spending time with him, he's my friend after all, but I still find that it hurts when we talk about this issue, even though he does not judge me, says he doesn't believe I am going to Hell, thinks it's okay when I crush on his friends, looks for guys to set me up with, etc. And yet- I still can't stand the idea that such a pure feeling for me- that he could think it would be a sin, somehow... Maybe I'm being unreasonable. I know his views have evolved a lot since meeting me, but I just wish he would just accept what I say since I am gay and he is not. Stupid Bible. I'm finding that I have a lot of anger over this issue and in my spare time I've found a new hobby: attacking conservatives. I go to a Christian College (long story- only 1 semester left thank God) so they are not hard to find. In this forum I actually seek out people who are saying gay people are going to Hell and use a cunning mixture of unassailable logic and cruel sarcasm to make them look like the idiots they are. I really enjoy this, I feel like I shouldn't but I do. My wonderful parents say I should just accept that these people are they way they are and avoid the topic. I am improving at this, I'm finding I can sometimes love people despite their religion, but it still annoys me. Thanks for listening to me vent guys. Do others feel this way? How do you deal with this? Any advice on the penpal? I'd really like to hear from some older gay people if possible, but I'd also love to hear from straight people and young people. __________________ "A productive and happy life is not something you find. It is something you make." Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. "Be kind. Everyone you meet is engaged in a great struggle." -Plato "I have sad misgivings that I shall never find any consolation in life save in music" - Bela Bartok

08-13-2005, 02:30 AM	#3
AlwaysNeedHelp Offline Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in time Gender: Male Age: 22 Posts: 450	I believe homosexuality is a SIN. i dont know why when god created a woman to have sex with her you go and have sex with a guy... sorry but have to say my opinion... i really dont know what to say.. i dont agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee __________________ Do right and fear no man.

08-13-2005, 01:10 AM	#2
Bitter_Blasphemy Offline Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 30	hi.. im only 19 and very religious but i also have a HUGE number of gay friends. in fact my two best friends are gay. but heres my advice to you- people are going to hold their views no matter what. and while it feels so natural to you to hold these feelings for other men.. its also natural for a religous person to hold feelings of dislike towards gay people. i dont mean this in a mean or unforgiving way at all but what i am getting at is this-- no matter what everyones going to hold onto their beliefs. you may feel their beliefs are wrong just like they feel your beliefs are wrong but i doubt either of you are going to budge on your opinion. but rather than yelling at the other person over their faith why dont you be the bigger person in the scenario and calmly and peacefully explain your side of why you feel homosexuality is okay. i dunno.. that may just be the pacifist in me coming out.. but i think itll work better than yelling at someone.

08-13-2005, 02:48 AM	#4
michelemybell Offline Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 303	pianoguy, This is a huge lesson you gotta learn to stay sane: Stay strong in your beliefs, but dont let other people get you down. It doesn't matter what you do in life--Someone is always going to have an opinion about it or not agree with it or not like what you do. We all go through it with everything. Just accept that you wont be accepted by everyone...and you'll be fine either way. I've learned it's an impossible task to be liked by everyone, and will only destroy you if you try to do so. You cant live for others. Accept that others disagree and walk away.

08-13-2005, 04:52 AM	#5
Shanö Offline Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: UK Posts: 9	Hi Pianoguy, I'm staunchly Christian, although i do not belong to 'a' specific religion, precisely because of the behaviours they tend to perpetrate as being 'Christian' and biblical and they are not at all. What i think you need to consider here is the irony in your behaviour? You are not talking to this girl because she does not share your view, [when she has called a truce!] yet you are out there arguing and trying to stir things up with others that don't share YOUR view point? Disagreement is healthy and not something to turn your back on people for - you or them? Surely the views of others must be accepted? Yours included? Perhaps the ammendment is ethical, after all marriage does not stem from a declaration of just 'love' does it, therefore it does not reduce the relationship you are having either? for that matter, any marriage ceremony in a church is not biblical either, it is cultural and dragged in by churchs... However, back to your issue with Christians. They have no right to brandish you a sinner, because we are all that! They do have justification for disagreeing with you. In the same manner as anyone Christian or not can tell me that swearing is wrong. Perhaps you should turn any wrongful condemnations round on them and ask them about the fact that ALL sins are equal because that is what is truth to Christian, and that we are all sinners, so you are no worse than them, and that is truth to their eyes too, even if they don't like truth much. Ask them politely where they sin in their lives - then remind them of "he that can cast stones"... I certainluy wouldnt berate you, whether im christian or not, i have no right to whatsoever...

08-13-2005, 06:02 AM	#6
mgirl Offline Gold Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Gender: Female Age: 40 Posts: 1,444	If you never speak out and defend your views, nothing will ever change. If great revolutionaires never did this, we wouldn't have some of the rights we have today, nor some of the prejudices (but that is a different story. It always seem the biased and prejudiced seem to win out in this world). Nothing stops these bigotted people from speaking their truths, so why should it stop you? Just because somebody reads a book and believes everything that "scripture" says, without measuring it against their values, does not mean they have an ultimate right to dictate the status quo? No. Why is that we adopt that attitude that we must remain silent, yet they are able to express their views and we are made to feel guilty? I bet they don't... I actually feel sorry for these people as they do not know their own minds. In my opinion, it is better to speak your own truth no matter consequence as you have to be true to yourself and defend your views. Things will never change unless we make them. The reason the earth is in such a state of disarray is because WE HAVE LET THESE THINGS HAPPEN! Throughout your post, you are stifling your voice and your inner convictions. Why should you? They don't and they don't make any apologies for it! You say you are enjoying challenging the status quo, well do it. If it feels right, do it. Don't worry about your pen friend. If she can't accept you for who you are, you shouldn't hang around. Seriously, why does it always have to be "our issue"? Like we are ultimately wrong and they are ultimately "right"? Forget it. If what the bible says, that we were all created equal and "love thy neighbour", why do we have to continiously jump through hoops to constantly prove ourselves? While they sit on their arrogant behinds and reap the benefits of our civilisation? Sorry about all the edits, i am tired, but my end opinion is to say what you feel is right. If people don't accept this, it is their loss.

08-13-2005, 11:27 AM	#8
Jinx Offline Bronze Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: (Soon-to-be) Wyoming Gender: Female Posts: 649	I've lived in a Conservative Christian home, as well as around many Catholic and other Christian individuals who believe it is a sin, one thing I've learned: You can't change their views, but that can't stop you from stating yours. Those that are truly religious will believe it is a Sin and you'll not get farther than arguments because "The bible says so. The end." I've tried talking before to those sort and they usually all say the same things, if that is their belief. Honestly what can you do? I'm sure you've even heard of those who are claim to be homosexual themself but say they can never happily act on such thoughts because they'd be condemed to hell. What disturbs me, are those which become Conservative Christians because they are ignorant about Homosexuality. They haven't a clue about anything Christian or Conservative other than "Hate gays. Give no marriage rights. No adoption. The end." You ask them about their other Conservative Christian beliefs and they haven't a clue about the bible otherwise except maybe one or two other passages. I say, they believe in everything or nothing at all. You can't bend the religion by believing in simply one passage to suit your needs when the others don't do you justice. It doesn't mean all Conservatives and all Christians hate Homosexuality though, despite its a common stereotype, there are a good few that will be accepting. They may not care much for it, but they won't bash you for it. For those you may find a middle ground. I've found not all of them are out on the Homosexual rage bandwagon, so they can't all be dropped there. My advice as given in any situation is: Be yourself. There will be those that will hate you. There will be those that love you. If they cannot accept you for who you are, you have no time to give to them. You are who you are, and do so happily. People will try to change you, try to do things to influence you, but stand strong and things will work in your favor.

08-13-2005, 12:26 PM	#9
justpaisley Offline Gold Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mississippi Gender: Female Age: 29 Posts: 857	You cannot force anyone to accept you for who you are. You can expect the best from people, but you will generally be disappointed. You can, however, accept them for who they are and assert your opinion whenever necessary. I'm an evangelical Christian, but when I was presented with the marriage amendment petition, simply refused to sign it. When asked why, I said it was none of our business what people do with their lives as long as it doesn't affect us and it certainly isn't the government's business. I didn't scream at them because they're different, I simply asserted my opinion and realized that they are different from me and I must accept that. They, in turn, accepted that I am different. It is extremely immature to expect people to accept you without making any attempt to accept them. You should not ever, ever let someone abuse you, and when a chance to assert yourself arises, do it, but you can NOT expect to change anyone and you can't scream at someone (your penpal) for bringing up something to you that she had absolutely no clue would offend you. If you cannot accept these people for who they are, do not talk to them. If you can accept that they are different than you, by all means, assert your opinion whenever necessary and disagree with them and let them know if they offend you. But don't expect them to change unless you're willing to change, too.

08-14-2005, 05:02 AM	#10
Markers Offline Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Gender: Male Age: 22 Posts: 807	<Flaming comments removed by Moderator>. < so it was flaming huh?? > {Yes, it was. Get with the program and stick to the debate instead of personal attacks. We could have removed your entire post instead. Love, the Mods} Back to the topic. I'm christian, and I do believe homosexuality is a sin, because that is clearly stated in Bible. There's no way you can explain it away.. that's just how it goes. If someone wants the passages, I can give them. It doesn't look like many would want them here though, since this is about how to deal with people, not about homosexuality being a sin or not. None of my friends are gay (as far as I know), but I'm sure it wouldn't matter. Everyone does sin, it's not a reason to hate someone. All I can do is to take care that I avoid sin as much as I can (which isn't too much). If you're bothered with someone who tries to banish you to hell or something because you're homosexual, you can remind them of "love your neighbour" part. It's not our job to really condemn anyone of their sins, leave that to God. It's okay to mention that: according to Bible, that is sin. People will either take it or leave it. Shanö - You're wrong to say all sin is equal. Do you seriously believe that raping a child is as bad as stealing candy from shop? I didn't think you did.. and I'm sure God doesn't do it that way either. Otherwise it would be better to do in your dad if he annoys you than constantly losing your temper to him. Also it is stated in Bible something like this: (not sure about exact words, but the meaning is same) Because of that this sin was worse than the another.. If you want, I can look up that passage too. PM me or something about it because it's sorta off topic here. You are correct though about christians not brandishing homosexuals as sinners because we all do sin.. just justification for disagreeing of what you should do. About the line "he that can cast stones", we can obviously read what's right and wrong from Bible. We are then entitled to say that, but leave the judgement to God. I think the casting stones refers to condemning people, sort of stepping into position of God here, not about keeping quiet about what Bible says about right and wrong. I must say though, that just accepting sin "because we all do it anyway" and not even trying to oppose it is something God doesn't want us to do. Try to avoid sin, and honestly apologize if (when) you do it , that's what God wants us to do. He doesn't except anyone to be perfect.