A philosophical question about relationships

Mr. Cactus · 05-09-2005, 10:20 PM

This question isn't something affecting me personally at the moment, but it's question I have been mulling over for years. I'd really like to hear people's viewpoints about it.

We all know that, sadly, intimate relationships that give all the indications of being ideal can sometimes fail, whether they be boyfriend / girlfriend relationships or marriages. For this reason, it's become an "accepted" part of today's society that people will go through several relationships in their life, perhaps even if they feel they have found a life partner or "soulmate".

At the same time, we all know of stories where a person is truly in love with another person, even though the person who is the object of that love is not available (for example they are in their own long term relationship or they are happily married, at least for the time being). I am sure this has happened to many of us - we have either been the person in love or on the receiving end of love.

My question is this: Let's say that person "A" is in love with person "B". This is a very deep love - the deepest imaginable, at least from person "A"'s perspective. From person "B"'s perspective, however, person "B" is currently in their own happy relationship and although they are absolutely attracted to person "A", they are very committed to their relationship with their current partner and want to make it work.

So person "A" explores other relationships. They find someone else - person "C". After a while, person "A" tells person "C" they love person "C", and person "C" reciprocates those feelings. Person "C" is made aware of the feelings that person "A" had (has?) for person "B", but person "A" tells person "C" says those feelings don't really matter and that they really do now love person "C". The relationship between person "A" and person "C" subsequently becomes very serious - perhaps even culminating in marriage. But as I stated in my first paragraph, many marriages do not last. So down the track, for unrelated reasons, the relationship between person "B" and their partner disintegrates. And remember, person "A" always loved person "B" right from the beginning - even more than they ever loved person "C".

So now we have a situation where person "A" now sees person "B" as available. And person "B" now sees person "A" as available too. Person "C", who fell in love with person "A" is now sort of left on the outer. It finally dawns on person "C" that person "C" was nothing much more than the best fit "substitute" or "option" at the time for person "A". To person "C"'s profound sadness, person "A" reveals their true feelings for person "B" and acts on them.

OK, well sorry about all the letters there, but hopefully the scenario was not too difficult to understand. So what do you think of this? Do you think person "C" should have been more careful about embarking on a relationship with person "A" in the first instance? Should person "A" have tried harder to get over person "B" and move on? Is it really possible to ever totally get over someone who you love unless you try a one-on-one relationship with them and let it run it's course - for better or worse? Although person "A" said to person "C" they were "over" person "B", were they really? How could any of these people really know? Don't we often just say we are "over" someone because that is the only way we have any hope of pursuing other relationships? Afterall, would you start a relationship with someone who kept going on and on about how wonderful their old flame was? Of course you wouldn't! In other words, if that old flame suddenly became available, what guarantees are there feelings won't suddenly change? I think the answer is that there are no guarantees at all and that the scenario I have painted is quite possible.

Without putting specific blame on any of the people here for the actual breakdown of the relationship between person "B" and their partner, where do you think the people in this scanerio went wrong, if they did go wrong anywhere? For the reasons I stated above, I tend to think person "C" should have been more suspicious or at least circumspect about getting into a relationship with person "A" in the first place. I am sure there would have been something that person "C" could detect in the behaviour of person "A" that would make person "C" a little wary of things (like relatively frequent mentioning of person "B", for example). On the one hand, I don't think person "A" should have let their relationship get serious with person "C" either. But on the other hand, how was person "A" supposed to get on with their life when their ideal partner - person "B" - was simply not available? I guess this scenario raises some basic questions. How can someone be absolutely, totally sure they are over someone else to the point they would never pursue them again, even if they became available? This assumes they never had a proper relationship that ran it's course one way or another. And how does one demonstrate that they are over someone - both to someone else and - more importantly, to themselves? What do you think regarding all the questions I have raised here?

imkazaam · 05-09-2005, 11:20 PM

Imagine person C was the same as person D.

Person D just has a different perspective.

Scenario 1)
Person D lives in another country, such as India, where it's pretty standard to marry someone for life? (my speculation) And 'dating around' / having many relationships isn't common.

Scenario 2--not a carryover from #1) (Person C is still person D-- who loves person A)
Person C meets person A and has a relationship with them...Person D does not know person B. D has never even heard of them. C's relationship goes sour with person A and A ends up later on with person B. D is like, "that's the new guy/gal" and is relatively uninterested/hopes person A is happy.

Scenario 3--also not a carryover from #1 or #2) (Person C is still person D)
C meets person A and D also KNOWS Person B -- but D does not care whether this person loves them or not. D sees their relationship (A & C's) as a separate part of both lives, and D completely trusts person A. But again... (as above) it goes sour. And they end up with person B. But again, D is like, "they finally got together" and is relatively uninterested/hopes person A is happy.

My interpretation of this is

1) Multiple relationships is western culture only (US, UK, some latin countries and western europe)...(for the most part...maybe some other cultures too, I'm not expert) and there are other possibilities. There are other norms as well.

2) If Person C didn't know Person B then Person C could not 'fear' or have suspicion about their(person B's) involvment with Person A. If this is happening or has ever happened to or with Person C, perhaps there are some power issues in the relationships that Person C has with the opposite sex (but probably everyone). They may even be occuring in the present.

3) Notice how Person D can also just see them as people and not 'get inside their heads' and put all thoughts about them getting together before or after the current relationship (what does that have to do with the present anyway?).

Finally, Person C may (if Person C is even real) have his or her ideals, and I respect that. Perhaps person C would be happier if they could remain in the present, enjoy the relationship they have/would have hypothetically with person A, and that relationship would probably not end (just a random guess, there are almost always other factors involved) without the worry, jealousy, envy, inferiority complex, or fear of abandonment that comes with paying (in this case) too much attention to what other people have.

chai714 · 05-10-2005, 12:57 AM

The one things missing out of these scenarios is a time frame. Time spent together yields strong bonds. In your scenario, I don't believe person "A" ever loved person "C," which was why it was so easy for person "A" to leave person "C" for person "B."

In real life, we don't normally leave the one we love just because someone we once loved is ready. Yes, it can happen, but it for whatever reason the person who left wasn't getting their emotions fulfilled. I liked how you put that scenario together though. It was pretty well thought out and is interesting to comment on.

Mr. Cactus · 05-10-2005, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chai714

In real life, we don't normally leave the one we love just because someone we once loved is ready. Yes, it can happen, but it for whatever reason the person who left wasn't getting their emotions fulfilled.

So do you think that is the definitive answer then? Or at least the most likely? I just tend to worry about me being a person "C" at some stage in my life and I obviously want to avoid the situation. How would I be reasonably sure that a future potential partner would not be a potential candidate to do what person "A" did?

I guess the question becomes even deeper then. Say someone tells you they love you. I just wonder how you can really be sure that they do, especially if they have had things happen in their life similar to what I described in the scenario.

chai714 · 05-10-2005, 01:43 AM

Quote:

So do you think that is the definitive answer then? Or at least the most likely? I just tend to worry about me being a person "C" at some stage in my life and I obviously want to avoid the situation. How would I be reasonably sure that a future potential partner would not be a potential candidate to do what person "A" did?

There are no guarantees in life. The only thing you can do is learn how to fulfill your partners emotions. This means mentally, sexually, and spiritually. You learn to take interest in the things they like. You teach them about the thing you like. How you make them feel is most important though. Always having a 3rd person perspective (looking in on your relationship as if a 3rd party would) also gives you good vision on how you make her feel.

It's pretty easy to tell if someone is not over someone else. You can see it in their body language when they converse with that person. Hardly any people have deep seeded thoughts that go something like "I secretly love this other person, but the one I'm with will do for now." Remember, by default humans have good intentions until proven otherwise. When you're with someone and when it comes to love, you can't hold back just because you fear getting hurt. Why? Because it will show in how you treat them. Trust is at the root of all strong relationships. With that being said, you have to completely trust the person you're with so that you will have a high quality relationship that will last for a long, long time.

imkazaam · 05-10-2005, 11:18 AM

I want to second what chai said. Trust is the most important thing. If I have a good reason to worry about someone leaving me, maybe that's someone I cannot trust completely--unless I am causing it by fear or my own behavior.

05-10-2005, 12:57 AM	#3
chai714 Offline Platinum Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The End of the Pier Gender: Male Age: 31 Posts: 2,704	The one things missing out of these scenarios is a time frame. Time spent together yields strong bonds. In your scenario, I don't believe person "A" ever loved person "C," which was why it was so easy for person "A" to leave person "C" for person "B." In real life, we don't normally leave the one we love just because someone we once loved is ready. Yes, it can happen, but it for whatever reason the person who left wasn't getting their emotions fulfilled. I liked how you put that scenario together though. It was pretty well thought out and is interesting to comment on. __________________ "Your mind is your greatest weapon." - David J. Lieberman, Ph.D "Most every person or situation can be influenced through the power of psychology."

05-10-2005, 11:18 AM	#6
imkazaam Offline Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 19	I want to second what chai said. Trust is the most important thing. If I have a good reason to worry about someone leaving me, maybe that's someone I cannot trust completely--unless I am causing it by fear or my own behavior. __________________ It is neither possible nor desirable to give up your ideals. What is necessary is to learn to recognize reality and to allow your ideals and reality to coexist without conflict in your world. --Robert Hand

05-09-2005, 10:20 PM	#1
Mr. Cactus Offline Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 185	A philosophical question about relationships This question isn't something affecting me personally at the moment, but it's question I have been mulling over for years. I'd really like to hear people's viewpoints about it. We all know that, sadly, intimate relationships that give all the indications of being ideal can sometimes fail, whether they be boyfriend / girlfriend relationships or marriages. For this reason, it's become an "accepted" part of today's society that people will go through several relationships in their life, perhaps even if they feel they have found a life partner or "soulmate". At the same time, we all know of stories where a person is truly in love with another person, even though the person who is the object of that love is not available (for example they are in their own long term relationship or they are happily married, at least for the time being). I am sure this has happened to many of us - we have either been the person in love or on the receiving end of love. My question is this: Let's say that person "A" is in love with person "B". This is a very deep love - the deepest imaginable, at least from person "A"'s perspective. From person "B"'s perspective, however, person "B" is currently in their own happy relationship and although they are absolutely attracted to person "A", they are very committed to their relationship with their current partner and want to make it work. So person "A" explores other relationships. They find someone else - person "C". After a while, person "A" tells person "C" they love person "C", and person "C" reciprocates those feelings. Person "C" is made aware of the feelings that person "A" had (has?) for person "B", but person "A" tells person "C" says those feelings don't really matter and that they really do now love person "C". The relationship between person "A" and person "C" subsequently becomes very serious - perhaps even culminating in marriage. But as I stated in my first paragraph, many marriages do not last. So down the track, for unrelated reasons, the relationship between person "B" and their partner disintegrates. And remember, person "A" always loved person "B" right from the beginning - even more than they ever loved person "C". So now we have a situation where person "A" now sees person "B" as available. And person "B" now sees person "A" as available too. Person "C", who fell in love with person "A" is now sort of left on the outer. It finally dawns on person "C" that person "C" was nothing much more than the best fit "substitute" or "option" at the time for person "A". To person "C"'s profound sadness, person "A" reveals their true feelings for person "B" and acts on them. OK, well sorry about all the letters there, but hopefully the scenario was not too difficult to understand. So what do you think of this? Do you think person "C" should have been more careful about embarking on a relationship with person "A" in the first instance? Should person "A" have tried harder to get over person "B" and move on? Is it really possible to ever totally get over someone who you love unless you try a one-on-one relationship with them and let it run it's course - for better or worse? Although person "A" said to person "C" they were "over" person "B", were they really? How could any of these people really know? Don't we often just say we are "over" someone because that is the only way we have any hope of pursuing other relationships? Afterall, would you start a relationship with someone who kept going on and on about how wonderful their old flame was? Of course you wouldn't! In other words, if that old flame suddenly became available, what guarantees are there feelings won't suddenly change? I think the answer is that there are no guarantees at all and that the scenario I have painted is quite possible. Without putting specific blame on any of the people here for the actual breakdown of the relationship between person "B" and their partner, where do you think the people in this scanerio went wrong, if they did go wrong anywhere? For the reasons I stated above, I tend to think person "C" should have been more suspicious or at least circumspect about getting into a relationship with person "A" in the first place. I am sure there would have been something that person "C" could detect in the behaviour of person "A" that would make person "C" a little wary of things (like relatively frequent mentioning of person "B", for example). On the one hand, I don't think person "A" should have let their relationship get serious with person "C" either. But on the other hand, how was person "A" supposed to get on with their life when their ideal partner - person "B" - was simply not available? I guess this scenario raises some basic questions. How can someone be absolutely, totally sure they are over someone else to the point they would never pursue them again, even if they became available? This assumes they never had a proper relationship that ran it's course one way or another. And how does one demonstrate that they are over someone - both to someone else and - more importantly, to themselves? What do you think regarding all the questions I have raised here?

05-09-2005, 11:20 PM	#2
imkazaam Offline Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 19	changing perspective Imagine person C was the same as person D. Person D just has a different perspective. Scenario 1) Person D lives in another country, such as India, where it's pretty standard to marry someone for life? (my speculation) And 'dating around' / having many relationships isn't common. Scenario 2--not a carryover from #1) (Person C is still person D-- who loves person A) Person C meets person A and has a relationship with them...Person D does not know person B. D has never even heard of them. C's relationship goes sour with person A and A ends up later on with person B. D is like, "that's the new guy/gal" and is relatively uninterested/hopes person A is happy. Scenario 3--also not a carryover from #1 or #2) (Person C is still person D) C meets person A and D also KNOWS Person B -- but D does not care whether this person loves them or not. D sees their relationship (A & C's) as a separate part of both lives, and D completely trusts person A. But again... (as above) it goes sour. And they end up with person B. But again, D is like, "they finally got together" and is relatively uninterested/hopes person A is happy. My interpretation of this is 1) Multiple relationships is western culture only (US, UK, some latin countries and western europe)...(for the most part...maybe some other cultures too, I'm not expert) and there are other possibilities. There are other norms as well. 2) If Person C didn't know Person B then Person C could not 'fear' or have suspicion about their(person B's) involvment with Person A. If this is happening or has ever happened to or with Person C, perhaps there are some power issues in the relationships that Person C has with the opposite sex (but probably everyone). They may even be occuring in the present. 3) Notice how Person D can also just see them as people and not 'get inside their heads' and put all thoughts about them getting together before or after the current relationship (what does that have to do with the present anyway?). Finally, Person C may (if Person C is even real) have his or her ideals, and I respect that. Perhaps person C would be happier if they could remain in the present, enjoy the relationship they have/would have hypothetically with person A, and that relationship would probably not end (just a random guess, there are almost always other factors involved) without the worry, jealousy, envy, inferiority complex, or fear of abandonment that comes with paying (in this case) too much attention to what other people have. __________________ It is neither possible nor desirable to give up your ideals. What is necessary is to learn to recognize reality and to allow your ideals and reality to coexist without conflict in your world. --Robert Hand