No Spaces Rob

As a highly intelligent person you need to develop a fair bit of patience. Letting someone figure something out for themselves is usually better in the long run even though the time they take might be frustratingly long to you. Showing this frustration will make people feel bad for not being able to keep up and they'll feel negatively towards you. But if you're patient then they'll be comfortable. You also need to get used to not correcting people when they are wrong. Unless they are asking you for clarification, just let it go most of the time. Unfortunately nobody will ever thank you for correcting them even if they are wrong. People are funny. They will defend their belief, sometimes even if they know they're wrong and you're right. Correcting someone is a confrontation and will make you an adversary. Finally, I don't think that the idea that you have to dumb down to fit in is helping much. Everyone behaves in different ways around different people, to account for their sensitivities and the closeness of the relationship, in order not to offend. It is an intelligent thing to do to treat people will respect and relate to them on a suitable level. The idea that you shouldn't 'descend to their level' may be interpreted as being self centred or difficult and give the impression that you care about yourself more than them. It's not about dumbing down. It's just finding a common way of relating to someone you meet.

Okay, I'd really like to do this - I'd really like to jump over this silly hurdle that I've not been able to jump the last couple of decades. Firstly, this particular girl - we were going to meet up after work, earlier that arvo she was feeling sick and went home. Wasn't at work the next day either. Can I salvage this? I am thinking that I need to come clean with her and let her know I find her sexually attractive. Cos she might kinda dig me apart from the whole shy quiet thing. But to be entirely honest, I find her hot and she seems to be not repelled by me and I just have no idea how to progress that kind of thing. I haven't even talked to her since wednesday. What next? Secondly, approaching any other girls - I'll be entirely honest here. There are some great girls that I would be entirely comfortable getting to know better but in terms of getting into any sort of relationship, I kind of feel as if they are 'hands off', not least because I got into a painful situation with a workmate once before. Not to mention that I kind of feel a bit pathetic to only be interacting with girls that I know because I work with them. I share a house with two people (my sister and a guy) who virtually never go out, and when they do it's with each other for a meal only. And my sister disapproves of me bringing friends home. Excuses excuses, I know, but it kind of limits me. Also, the idea of taking a class in order to meet women seems a bit silly, because if I were to take a class it should be in something I want to do anyway. It seems like there is a lot of pressure on men, according to all dating sites I've seen, to try and engineer a situation in which you can appear to meet women 'naturally'. That is to say, I _should_ go out an join a club so I can talk to the women in that club and pretend I wasn't just joining the club in order to talk to women in a non threatening setting. Internet dating seems crappy to me, I would much rather in-person interactions where I can feel the body language, or whatever. It's just that I don't know how to progress anything - to bed, or to a date, for example. Only to a little friendship. If one more person tells me "dude, you shouldn't try to become their friend" I'll go insane. I know that already. I try my hardest to become more than a friend but I don't know how. I feel as if I need specific guidance in every step of the way, from how and when to touch a woman, from how to talk about dates, relationships, sex, and when. For me, nothing has ever progressed into a relationship - I don't know how to do that, I just don't. So I feel as if I need some help from people who have experience in going from where I am now to where I want to be. And right now I want to be getting sexual with this girl who was sick the other day, and I want to be able to meet girls and have nice dates with them in contexts where they 'understand' it is a date and not just some strange polite platonic kind of guy.

Thanks very much for your words of encouragement. We didn't end up going out unfortunately. When I suggested where to meet up she cancelled. She was too sick. Well, he SMS said "Rob, as much as i love u I am leaving work right now and I am so * * * *ing sick..." etc etc and she went on to talk about work a bit. So I replied and she replied etc. It kinda gets me down a bit because this has actually happened more often than not. A girl will cancel only a few hours before we arranged to go out. But I am friends with her workmate and she really did leave early and then she was still away from work today - sick. So once again I have absolutely no clue what to do. I didn't beg for another date when I talked to her, cos I thought that would be a bit desperate and also a bit harassing, particularly if she is sick. I just had a bit of a polite and fun chat. My thoughts at the time were that it was all over and I need to ask other girls out. Well, I still should do that of course. But knowing that she was truly sick kinda makes me feel as if it would be cowardly not to give up on her now. I just wish I knew what to do, and I am still concerned that I haven't shown her my intentions - ie that I seem to have given the wrong signals like I just want to be a friend which is going to confuse her (hence the title of my thread) and make her put me in her 'friend' zone.

I have never tried any online dating site and don't really 'get it' so to speak. I was wondering if you could share the reasons why you have used online dating sites and the actual success you have had. Have you got into any serious long term relationships? Are the odds really stacked against men? The online dating info (including the online dating guide) that I have read seems a bit depressing I think. It seems like a lot of men without social skills would be harassing women, who would be receiving hundreds of messages from men who don't seem interesting at all. I wouldn't like to lump myself in with them. There's also the stigma that it is used by people with low social skills. My social skills aren't great. But I do like meeting people in person. It seems much less like a game than what I know in online dating. If you meet someone in person then you can have an instant reaction from them which just seems to make things so much more comfortable. Have I got the wrong idea about online dating?

You are probably a lot smarter than you think you are. You probably perceive him to be a lot smarter than you because of your self-image. Is it possible that his 'implication' that he was smarter than you was in your head? Also is it possible that he appears very smart to you because he is a confident and self-assured person? It seems as though there are a lot of reasons why you can't be in a relationship right now that are to do with yourself rather than him. Nobody will be a perfect match and nobody will do exactly as you expect them to all the time, but if you have self confidence you can be your own person and you won't constantly be worried about people's 'motives' or what people think of your looks or your intelligence. I'm not saying you are lost cause - far from it. The fact you're questioning your own actions is a sign of being normal. But maybe you could try letting go some control and letting other people influence you, and try not to make assumptions about what other people think of you, especially if you are assuming negative things (like doubting your intelligence or only wanting you for sex).

It sounds a bit like this to me. Very early on, you told him clearly that you wanted just to be friends. Then, after that, you gave him mixed signals. For example you flirted heavily with him, and despite telling him you wanted to be just friends you still seemed to entertain the notion of a relationship. He likely interpreted this as you now knowing what you want. If he's had any experience at all, then he will know to avoid getting too romantically involved with a girl who doesn't know what she wants. So when you told him that you wanted to be just friends, it set off an alarm in his mind saying 'this girl is scared of a serious relationship'. He knows better than to get too into a girl like that, so he started looking at his other options (JUST like you are doing now) and he started thinking of you as a 'don't get too emotionally attached to her' girl. Did he actually TELL you that he didn't see any worth in you other than as a sex object, or is that just something you inferred from his behaviour and what he said? Because I think his behaviour may have just been a reaction to your flakiness. Is it possible at all that when he said he only wanted a casual relationship, nothing serious, that it was because he was scared of getting too attached to someone who had already clearly stated she wasn't interested in a serious relationship? Is it possible that you inferred the whole thing about feeling like you were only wanted for sex, because you didn't realise that the signals you gave him were a strong 'i don't know if I'm ready for a serious relationship'? Is it possible that just as you are scared away by him, and you're considering other options now, that he is considering other options too? Maybe he does know a girl in New York, and maybe he has a better idea of where he stands with her, and never gets the impression she is scared of a relationship or doesn't know what she wants. Maybe, like a lot of nice guys, when he feels a bit vulnerable (ie, a girl is being flaky or giving mixed signals) he hides his true personality a little bit, and tries to act more aloof, which may have given off the impression he was arrogant. He suggested going to a bar instead of a coffee shop and you seemed a little bit scared by that. Do you feel unsafe around him - ie do you think he might get pushy or not take no for an answer, or is it just that you are a bit scared of a relationship? Ie, what are you scared of?

Hey pianoguy thanks for your reply. I don't think I've been all that worried about 'failing' with this girl in particular. I think I am more worried about 'failing' with girls in general. Now that I re-read my previous post I realise I was probably pretty paranoid. In fact, I was watching TV the other night, and some girl had a crush on some guy, and her mum asked her who she was talking to and she called out 'it's just my friend todd' or something. Yeah so anyway... she lives with her mum too... Since you ask, I haven't used the word 'date' with her at all. I asked if she would like to catch up for a drink with me some time. I watched the 40 year old virgin a couple of weeks ago and thought to myself, hmmm, that could be me in 14 years! But then he met this girl and they went out... regardless of the advice his friends gave him. And they lived happily ever after. Which is good. Though they didn't have sex until marraige, which I was quite disappointed in. I'd love to have a sexual relationship some time soon and I would love to meet someone who I am into, and who is into me, etc. But I can't seem to meet someone who is seriously interested in me, and not just saying I am good looking to be nice, in a 'I don't see you that way but you're a nice guy and some girl (other than me) would be lucky to have you' kind of way. Sometimes I feel bad about myself. I'm 26. It wouldn't be so bad if I had chosen to be celibate, due to some sort of religious thing, but I have been wanting something all this time - all these years - and not knowing how to get it. And hurting. This girl seemed like a good chance to turn my luck around in my 26 year getting-a-relationship quest and if I end up as just friends with her I won't have progressed any further in that quest, I'll just feel like even more of a failure. It was bad enough turning 21 with no girl experience, let alone 25, but now it's edging close to 30. Sorry to sound melodramatic, but I wanted to put it into context. I am not ugly - average height average build. My friends say that my deep brown eyes and brown hair work in my favour. And obviously I have no problem speaking to or relating to girls as I have female friends and girls tend to like me. I am highly intelligent. I am interested in all sorts of geeky things like photography and movies, even computer programming, and I am artistic. My main problem is that I don't know how to break through that invisible barrier with women - and position myself as a guy they might like to have a romantic or sexual thing with. Even though for all these _years_ I have wanted to. This is obviously not something I can just get over easily, if I have been trying to for like a decade and still haven't progressed.

Well, now I kinda know a bit more info. When I asked her out, she assumed I meant next wednesday rather than this wednesday (having a blonde moment or something) because she going to be away all week this week. She asked me to catch up with her next wednesday, which is cool with me. We had a bit of a convo and she seemed to enjoy it. What really scares me though is that during the conversation, someone must have asked who she was talking to and she yelled back "my friend [rob]". That 'friend' word is going to piss me off continuously for days now. I know it. I am going to get really worried about it. I don't know if I interpreted things wrong. She seemed good with the proximity and touching thing, we did the eye contact and smile thing, when I asked her out she gave me her phone number and later when she kissed me on the cheek and said we'll talk later. So - what now! I wish I knew what to do. I really feel quite bad now, not because this is a girl I am infatuated with or anything (though I find her very attractive) but because it means that I'm a failure. If she thinks of me as a friend only then it is simply one more failure for me to successfully dating a girl. It means that the next girl I get a phone number from will be the same, and the girl after that. because somehow I give off some stupid platonic vibe. What else can I do? Short of grabbing her boob or something, what can an appropriate person do.

I called her up. Her mum answered, and she wasn't there. Funny thing - her mum knew who I was and everything. She said call back in an hour.

Haha, I'd say she is only saying that thing about the guy not looking that cute because you told her it wasn't you She wouldn't want to give you the impression she found another guy cute, would she? In other words, if you told her it was you, there's no way she'd have told you that you weren't all that cute, would she. So what sort of relationship is it? Does she know that you find her very attractive and that she is someone you would date? Is it kinda playful or just kinda friendly?

A good piece of advice someone gave me once was that you should always treat people as though they like you. So just call her up one day for a chat. Don't start apologising for a whole bunch of stuff you didn't even do, and don't feel that you need to justify yourself to her or earn her respect or trust. When talking to her, just assume that she likes you already, and talk to her as if you know she likes you. There is a point where you can be overly cocky, but I don't think you'll reach it. I think you want to be as confident as you can be. I think it makes you confident around people and that helps people to feel comfortable. If you ever get into a situation like that one where she said "oh, that explains a lot" and you don't know what she means, it doesn't harm to just ask what she means right on the spot. Don't be too serious or hung up about it, maybe just look at her like she is speaking greek or something

I really doubt that this is the case. Unless you have three eyes, as long as you are confident you have the same chance as any other confident guy. Perhaps this girl has some issues which she needs to deal with. Girls can have issues or be scared just like anyone. It's disappointing if it is causing you to doubt yourself - try not to let yourself feel bad about stuff like this. I was particularly concerned that you felt you weren't good looking enough for her - and just assumed that was the case. You obviously got on well on the phone, which means you have a good voice and can hold a conversation well. Maybe I can offer another scenario. She talks to you on the phone quite a bit, and thinks you're a pretty nice guy. She went to you work to meet you, but she was really nervous. Maybe she has heard bad things about meeting guys after only speaking to them on the phone or internet. Maybe it looked to her as if it wasn't a good time to disturb you, or maybe nobody helped her when she came in, and maybe she just is really shy, so she left. If that's the case, then she would probably feel pretty bad for not being able to talk to you when you were right there. So then you told her it wasn't you that she saw. She was relieved, because now she knows she was right not to go up to the guy because it wasn't you. All that time she thought she had seen you and not been able to talk to you because she's too shy, but now she is relieved to find out it wasn't you after all. She didn't chicken out, it just wasn't you. I hope you see what I mean.

I have to disagree on the "leave it up to her to make the call if she's interested". She has only just met you, and kinda isn't sure if she likes you. She's got plenty of friends she can hang with any time, and perhaps some other guys got her phone number too, maybe even on the same night as you did, or maybe some guy from her gym has offered to take her out too. Sitting by the phone waiting for her to "call if she's interested" is not pro-active, it's assuming that you're the only priority in her life, which is unrealistic when she's just met you, and you were the one that approached her anyway. Unless she already decided that she wants to go out with you, she is not likely to call back. It's not that she doesn't like you, she just doesn't know you and it's more comfortable for her just to hang with her friends than to call up a stranger. Now, to the matter at hand - she suggested a particular day to you (in fact, she said a 'weekend' - a choice of 2 days). Why not just be satisfied with that suggestion? Did you say yes to it? If so then you have a date. Call her a couple of days before to confirm plans. If, however, you left it hanging and didn't actually agree to a date before hanging up the phone, then you've kinda turned down her offer. With no clear indication from you as to whether she's meeting you that weekend, she might make other plans. Call her up in a few days and ask if that weekend is still good for her. Arrange to meet her for a drink or coffee on the sunday arvo. Make sure you agree on a place and a day, and an approximate time, before you hang up. PS. she probably already has plans for the new year's weekend. Don't read too much into that. For lots of people, new year's weekend is about spending time with good friends and is organised far in advance. As for after work on one of the nights in between, maybe she didn't suggest that because she works late, or because she assumed you wanted to do some daytime activity like shopping. Shopping is not a bad idea. If you did suggest that then maybe stick with that.

A few questions. 1. Why did you lie and tell her it wasn't you that she saw? 2. Why would she be relieved when you told her it wasn't you that she saw? 3. When she said "oh that explains a lot" you said "I have a pretty good idea what this means". Why haven't you told us what that is? 4. Do you even like her? Like, how attractive do you find her? Be honest. I think it seems pretty weird that you would even have a conversation about whether she saw you or not, let alone that you would lie and tell her it wasn't you. You say she has seen pictures of you. But I just think there are things you aren't telling us.

Thanks - actually, I wouldn't say that I have made a significant amount of progress. I've never successfully made any sort of statement of intention with a girl I am attracted to. Like, telling her I find her attractive/want to date/want to have sex/kissing her. Well, other than a couple of times in my life and those times, I was already too emotionally involved and in a 'safe' relationship and I got hurt (hence I am terrified of repeating the same thing). I understand it's completely normal for me to find some girl very sexy, but even imagining myself saying that to her is scary. It's kinda sad that perhaps my inability having more than platonic relationships with women stems from some sort of belief that it is disrespectful to women to want to have sex with them. Who knows, maybe it is because my parents never showed affection for each other in front of me. Maybe it's to do with the sexual education in schools being heavily slanted towards avoiding diseases and avoiding accusations of sexual harassment. But it's not like I don't want to, I just have a lot of barriers preventing me. My thoughts are in the right place. I find this girl fun, and attractive, and would love to spend more time with her, play around with her, kiss her, hold her arm, share a bed with her, whatever. And I feel highly guilty and creepy about that, even though in the grand scheme of things there is nothing wrong with that. I just need to somehow figure out what is making me feel guilty about this and what is stopping me from acting on these impulses. I think it's not so much a fear of rejection as a fear of absolute humiliation. What if I go in for a kiss, or compliment her on her blouse and she becomes highly offended at my advances. I think a lot of people misunderstand guys like me. They think we choose to get ourselves into platonic relationships with girls we like, because we have some sort of mistaken belief that it's going to help get the girl to like us. That's not the case at all. I would say that we get into platonic relationships with girls we like because we simply don't know how to progress it further. We get too scared to make a bold and daring move (what do do? say "i find you attractive, want to go out for coffee", or touch her arm or kiss her), and we put it off over and over again, repeatedly making excuses to ourselves. We hope that the girl will realise what we really want, and take the lead (invite us into a passionate kiss or into bed? I dunno). And we procrastinate so much that before we know it, we've known a girl for 5 weeks and she still has no idea what our intentions are - she may be suspecting we are gay, not interested, or some sort of 'platono-mon'. I guess I'm going to call up this girl the day before or so, and organise this meeting on wednesday. She might flake out on it and turn out not to be interested. Or it might happen. When I meet her what on earth can I do to prevent it being 'just another pleasant conversation'? Should I go for a kiss, should I bring up the topic of relationships, should I tell her I find her sexy, should I touch her arm, her back, or her leg with mine? If so, how? How do I prevent myself being simply a nice guy and just making pleasant conversation, smiling, laughing, and saying goodbye without anything really progressing, and regretting being such a wuss later? Lots of guys just say that at the end of the 'date' you should go in for a kiss. How? If I haven't managed to clue her in on my intentions, it'd just be completely unexpected and she would react to that.